Posted: 11/8/2009 12:44:53 PM EDT
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I am just having a friendly debate, and trying to decide which would be a more effective self defense round. I know that there are much more ideal rounds, but let's pretend you had to chose one or the other.
Plus I am tired of all of the 9mm vs .45. |
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The .25 acp was developed because at the time .22 LR was not that reliable. However, if you use quality ammo primed with the Eley method, .22 can be very reliable. And the .22 is more effective. What do you mean by the Eley method? We have some Eley Sporting Ammo from the UK at our range, and it is very unreliable stuff. It wont cycle most automatic pistols and half of it has failure to fires. |
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I like this thread.
Lets see, for .25 ACP: 35 grains at 900 FPS 50 grains at 760 FPS for .22 LR: 38 grains at 1,260 FPS 40 grains at 1,080 FPS but I imagine those velocities (pulled off the net) are from a rifle barrel. Meh, both suck, but if I had a reliable .22LR auto, I could dump 9 rounds into an assailant's chest and run away before they notice I've shot them 
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I would run 22lr hollow points as a carry load. In this hypothetical situation,
With either round shot placment and speed of first shot will be the only deciding factors You will get more options in designs with 22lr including some really great options like 22lr walther PPK or PP or S&W 63 or S&W 34 all great small size 22lr handguns meant to train with for similiar designs in more popular calibers. The fact is 25acp does not offer enough of an advantage over 22lr to warrant taking the loss in design options and getting a pistol that really suits your needs |
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My Beretta 21a in 25acp meets my need for a small pistol, and I prefer the 25 to the LR. Yes, the velocities quoted for the LR above are from a rifle length barrel. From the same length barrel, the 25 has the edge, plus centerfire reliability. In this weapon, I prefer penetration to expansion, and the 25 has the FMJ bullet.
I use the 9-shot MecGar magazine in my Beretta, giving me 10 rounds, which can be fired extremely rapidly...and with great accuracy. |
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The .25 acp was developed because at the time .22 LR was not that reliable. However, if you use quality ammo primed with the Eley method, .22 can be very reliable. And the .22 is more effective. What do you mean by the Eley method? We have some Eley Sporting Ammo from the UK at our range, and it is very unreliable stuff. It wont cycle most automatic pistols and half of it has failure to fires. Eley invented a new method of priming rimfire ammo which uses a dry powdered primer, the case is spun to get the priming compound in the rim, then water is added. In the standard method the primer is added as a liquid and spun in. The standard method can leave air bubbles in the rim, which can cause FTFire. The Eley method is more expensive, but also more reliable. I'm surprised you have experienced FTF with Eley ammo, it's used by a lot of competitors because it's reliable and consistent. |
| If I had too I'd go with a high quality HP or fragmental 22lr round. Aim for the throat or head, and then run in to hit them with your empty gun. That is probably your best option in a self defense, robbery situation. Then ask yourself why you didn't buy a Kel tec or Ruger .380 pistol... |
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.25 ACP. More reliable ignition, more reliable feeding, deeper penetration. +1 .22s are more popular because the ammunition is far less expensive. As for reliability, ever tried to find a Walther TPH in .25 acp? .22s are everywhere, nobody who actually have the .25acp versions ever want to sell them |
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If I had too I'd go with a high quality HP or fragmental 22lr round. Aim for the throat or head, and then run in to hit them with your empty gun. That is probably your best option in a self defense, robbery situation. Then ask yourself why you didn't buy a Kel tec or Ruger .380 pistol... Truthfully, these guns have really made the small caliber bug guns obsolete. I prefer the .32acp for even more reliability. Oh, you guys didn't know? Rimmed and semi rimmed cartridges are more reliable than rimless cartridges in smaller semi auto handguns. |
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The .25 acp was developed because at the time .22 LR was not that reliable. However, if you use quality ammo primed with the Eley method, .22 can be very reliable. And the .22 is more effective. What do you mean by the Eley method? We have some Eley Sporting Ammo from the UK at our range, and it is very unreliable stuff. It wont cycle most automatic pistols and half of it has failure to fires. Eley invented a new method of priming rimfire ammo which uses a dry powdered primer, the case is spun to get the priming compound in the rim, then water is added. In the standard method the primer is added as a liquid and spun in. The standard method can leave air bubbles in the rim, which can cause FTFire. The Eley method is more expensive, but also more reliable. I'm surprised you have experienced FTF with Eley ammo, it's used by a lot of competitors because it's reliable and consistent. I checked out the box of Eley stuff, and it says that it is from the UK but manufactured in Mexico. Maybe that has something to do with it? What sparked this debate in my head is that I was rummaging through some ammo in our storage room and I came across some Speer Gold-Dot .25 ACP. So I started doing research on .25's, apparently they were very popular back in the day as vest pocket pistols, and everyone had one. I didn't include .380 in the debate because there really is no competition, .380 is the tallest midget in the room when it comes to small calibers. |
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I didn't include .380 in the debate because there really is no competition, .380 is the tallest midget in the room when it comes to small calibers. Agreed. However as they say, technology marches on. The Kel-tec P-3AT weighs 1.4 oz less than a Baby Browning. |
| Also, when comparing velocity figures, please keep in mind that the .22s are cronographed from an 18"-20" rifle barrel, while the .25 ACP loads are from a 2" barrel! I don't imagine the .22LR will loads will go much faster than the .25s from a TWO INCH barrel... |
| I picked the 25 based on the fact that I have shot box cars of .22s over the years and way to many times for a defensive round, I have had them go "click". Nice dent on the rim. Ejected and tried again, some went off some did not. I have had this happen with Rem, Win, Fed, you name it. It is just part of the beast of being rim fire. |
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FWIW I know someone who was shot point blank in the forehead with a 25 ACP. The round failed to penetrate. 22lr is far more dangerous that most people give it credit for. Buy some premium HP loads and shot placement is the key. Yep. I found a picture and description of a guy online who was shot in the head with a .25 and the bullet skidded around his skull and the description said doctors "plucked the bullet off" implying that no cutting was necessary to get it out. However, upon impact the bullet did send skull fragments into the brain. Still, the .22 could have done the same thing, especially considering the softer, lighter bullet. |
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I am just having a friendly debate, and trying to decide which would be a more effective self defense round. I know that there are much more ideal rounds, but let's pretend you had to chose one or the other. Plus I am tired of all of the 9mm vs .45. I used to lean towards 25 ACP over 22, but I've changed my mind. Assuming you use decent quality 22 LR ammunition, it gets the nod in my mind. Many 25 ACP pistols are cheap and prone to breakage; many of them weren't intended to ever fire more than a few dozen rounds in their entire service life. In contrast, there are many high quality, durable 22 LR handguns in virtually any configuration you could want. If I were going to carry a 22 for SD......S&W 617 with CCI Mini-mags FTW 
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The first shooting I worked, guy's girlfriend shot him with a 25acp. Ambulance called to scene. Victim signed medical waiver by victim. Victim did not want to press charges. Victim then walks home. The victim was shot in the ankle. The round just did penetrate his cowboy boot and bruised the side of his heel, failing to break his skin. |
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.25 ACP. More reliable ignition, more reliable feeding, deeper penetration. this, and for me, for some unknown reason, my 950 jetfire with its crude sights, is more reliable and accurate than my 6 7/8 ruger mk II at 25 feet. i am amazed at the 950's accuracy. a quarter covers the groups. the last few value packs of 22 lr have had numerous failure to fires and wild fliers. all with hard rim strikes. from both rifles and pistols. i would never trust a .22 lr for defense. before a bullet can penetrate anything it has to go bang. the 25 has never failed to fire.it feeds and ignites every time. tests have proved that a 22 fired from a 2 inch barrel has less speed thanthe 25 fired from the same length barrel. so less speed for a 40 grain .223 dia bullet than more speed for a 50-60 grain .251 bullet. in comparable hide away guns the 25 wins every time. |
Effectiveness is a wash. I'd go with the .25 for the reliability of ignition. The Raven pistol looks like a POS but it's surprisingly reliable in .25ACP. However recently we had a shooting where the victim took a .25 HP in the forehead and the bullet bounced off. Another victim was hit in the lower leg but all it did was make him mad and fight back with a club.  Sometimes the penetration is surprising but usually we're underwhelmed.
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I've related this story before:
(This happened when I was only 10 years old. Didn't occur to anybody to worry about falling bullets, ear pro., etc.) Watched a man pull out a .25 and shoot at a squirrel that was hopping around in a tree over his head. I figured he was missing. Another guy used a .22 rifle and brought the squirrel down with 1 shot. When we examined the squirrel it had 5 hits from the .25. 
After travelling 10-15 feet in the air, the .25 rounds only penetrated an inch or two in the tree rat. 
I think, of the two choice offered, I'd pick the .22. |
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I've related this story before: (This happened when I was only 10 years old. Didn't occur to anybody to worry about falling bullets, ear pro., etc.) Watched a man pull out a .25 and shoot at a squirrel that was hopping around in a tree over his head. I figured he was missing. Another guy used a .22 rifle and brought the squirrel down with 1 shot. When we examined the squirrel it had 5 hits from the .25.
After travelling 10-15 feet in the air, the .25 rounds only penetrated an inch or two in the tree rat.
I think, of the two choice offered, I'd pick the .22. Even with the same length barrel as a .25 ACP pocket pistol ? I've got a .22 LR Smith & Wesson model 61-3 Escort which I used to carry as a bug but don't anymore because of it's lack of effectiveness. BTW; I once emptied 8 rounds of .32 ACP FMJ into a groundhog from a distance of about 10 feet and had to finish him off with a .22 rifle. All 8 rounds of .32 hit the animal squarely but he acted as if he wasn't hit at all. IMO all mouse guns are more or less equal because they are more or less ineffective; the difference between them not being worth worrying about. |