Posted: 6/27/2009 9:18:27 AM EDT
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Do you guys prefer DA/SA trigger pulls? I've trained a lot on my glock so I'm used to the consistent trigger pull. My new CZ is the DA/SA and I find myself shifting my grip on the first shot where it throws off my point of aim on the second shot. I feel like I almost need to shift my grip to properly get a smooth trigger pull.
Any tips? |
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I prefer DA/SA over constant trigger pull personally. I feel safer carrying a gun with a long heavy first pull, but no safeties.
The payoff IMO iis on all subsequent shots, when you typically have a lighter, crisper trigger than most striker fired guns with a constant trigger pull can offer. Also, if you have time to cock the gun for the first shot, you will again benefit from a lighter, crisper trigger pull than most striker fired guns. I consider a striker fired gun with a lightened constant trigger pull more of a hot potato to carry, but that's just my opinion. It's a matter of personal preference. I could debate my choice for 20 pages with the constant trigger pull people, and neither of us would convince the other they're right. |
| Never have liked the DA/SA trigger systems. The deal about shifting grips seems to come up every now and then. Truthfully, it is probably only noticed at the range. In an actual shooting, you won't even notice it, along with all the other small stuff that's happening. But, that long pull for the first shot does (don't let anyone tell you any different) effect speed and accuracy for most shooters. As one of the most respected pistoleros once said, "Its a solution in search of a problem". |
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If your grip needs to shift everytime to operate a pistol like this, you need to be using a different type of pistol.
Only rigorous training can overcome the shortcomings of the traditional DA/SA trigger pull. Lots of dry fire practice, making sure your sights stay on target while executing the pull. |
| I bought a DA/SA pistol without knowing any better. In hindsight, I wish I had gotten a SAO or DA/SA that can be cocked and locked like a CZ. After a year and a million dry-fire rounds, I've finally sort of gotten the DA trigger pull down. It's still annoying to switch from DA to SA. I would get a new pistol, but it's hard to let go of my first and it's hard to buy pistols when you are poor and under 21... |
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Thanks for the responses guys. It's a P01....I like it, it feels great in my hands and the only "problem" is just the fact I'm not used tothe DA ––> SA transition. I've found that in dry firing, the front sight shakes a bit while pulling, but by the time the trigger breaks the sights are solid and back on target. Compared to other DA/SA guns (ie fnp9 and Sig P228) this one has the smoothest/lightest DA pull.
I think my "problem" is just solved by practice. We'll how the gun shoots/performs compared to the Glock 19 before I carry it. |
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Quoted:
If your grip needs to shift everytime to operate a pistol like this, you need to be using a different type of pistol. Only rigorous training can overcome the shortcomings of the traditional DA/SA trigger pull. Lots of dry fire practice, making sure your sights stay on target while executing the pull. Glock 19 is my go-to gun anyways. Just mixing the stable up a bit. |
I occasionally carry a P226 and with the cost of ammunition it's been getting more range time.  I however do about 70% of my shooting with it practicing that first DA shot with a fast followup shot. The key is to learn to not power (speed up) through the initial trigger press. Keep the trigger speed constant, don't slap through that first shot and throw a miss. |
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I occasionally carry a P226 and with the cost of ammunition it's been getting more range time.
I however do about 70% of my shooting with it practicing that first DA shot with a fast followup shot. The key is to learn to not power (speed up) through the initial trigger press. Keep the trigger speed constant, don't slap through that first shot and throw a miss. Thanks! I'll try it. Most of my shooting have been on glocks & 1911's. |
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I occasionally carry a P226 and with the cost of ammunition it's been getting more range time.
I however do about 70% of my shooting with it practicing that first DA shot with a fast followup shot. The key is to learn to not power (speed up) through the initial trigger press. Keep the trigger speed constant, don't slap through that first shot and throw a miss. When I had my 226, I was actually always more accurate in DA. No matter what. It was the only gun that's ever been that way for me, too. I don't mind DA/SA, but prefer SAO. (DAO is fine on revolvers) |
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Years ago I trained fairly extensively with DA/SA Sigs, Walthers and S&W pistols. And no matter what I did, in a stressful situation I'd fire a second shot without meaning to. An automatic double tap, if you will. At first I thought this was pretty cool but the more I thought about it the less I liked the idea. I didn't do it every time, but I bet I did it at least half the time under pressure. When I shot my first Glock about 5 or 6 years ago I made the switch and never looked back. I sold my Sigs, resigned my Walthers to safe queen status and converted my small DA/SA pocket guns to DAO mode. As a guy who wears a gun whenever he's wearing pants, I love the idea behind DA/SA for carry, but it just never worked out for me. Every now and again I look wistfully at my S&W 1076 and wish there was a way to easily train around the whole inadvertent second shot thing, cause I'd love to carry a 1" thick, 9 round 10mm pistol that I can put magnum level power into an 6" circle at 50 yards in SA with, but I just shake my head and put it back in the safe. |
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Quoted: i shoot as many different guns as i can. SA SA/DA DAO Striker LDA that way i can adjust to any gun i want or am shooting at the time. Problem with this is you probably have no muscle memory for any of them. It's just not the way the body works. When the SHTF, you'll have to think about it. It takes thought to adjust, and thinking is the last thing you want to do when you need to draw and fire quickly. |
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i shoot as many different guns as i can. SA SA/DA DAO Striker LDA that way i can adjust to any gun i want or am shooting at the time. Problem with this is you probably have no muscle memory for any of them. It's just not the way the body works. When the SHTF, you'll have to think about it. It takes thought to adjust, and thinking is the last thing you want to do when you need to draw and fire quickly. Absolutely. There's a reason for the saying "beware the man with only one gun"........................... |
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I occasionally carry a P226 and with the cost of ammunition it's been getting more range time.
I however do about 70% of my shooting with it practicing that first DA shot with a fast followup shot. The key is to learn to not power (speed up) through the initial trigger press. Keep the trigger speed constant, don't slap through that first shot and throw a miss. Big +1 I'll bring my 228 along to the range occasionally and just about all I do with it are "controlled pairs" as SGB described above. DA/SAs just take more practice and I think they're hard to master. It's this reason DA/SAs aren't my carry guns. |
| IMHO it all comes down to what you learned on. I learned to shoot DA/SA and don't think anyhting about it. A few years later I started shooting a Glock also. I can go back and forth between both without even thinking about it. If you learned on SA w/safety then changing to SA/DA maybe harder. Not knocking any...it comes down to what you know/like. I don't like any gun with a safety I have to unsafe before shooting but thats because I've never really trained with one. |
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[/quote] Posted by ViniVidivici
Absolutely. There's a reason for the saying "beware the man with only one gun"........................... [/quote] Yeah because if he ever has to pick up a different gun than the "one" he's used to, he's going to fumble with it like a monkey f*n a football. It's a good thing to learn the different types of guns out there, not saying you have to "own" them all, but knowing the difference between them would be beneficial to anyone owning a gun. Example: I took a friend to the range the other day, he is a glock shooter, and he wanted to shoot my CZ. I gave it to him and told him about it etc....but when he actually started handleing the gun and trying to figure it out, it took him several minutes before he got the hang of it. If that had been a serious situation where he needed to pick up the gun and fire it, it might not have turned out so well for any of us. |
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Quoted:
I occasionally carry a P226 and with the cost of ammunition it's been getting more range time.
I however do about 70% of my shooting with it practicing that first DA shot with a fast followup shot. The key is to learn to not power (speed up) through the initial trigger press. Keep the trigger speed constant, don't slap through that first shot and throw a miss. I'm surprised a hardcore 1911 guy such as yourself doesn't carry a 9mm USP Variant 1 which allows cocked and locked carry in SA mode, same as the 1911. Must have something to do with not liking plastic I suspect.
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Is this happening when you are slow shooting i.e. punching paper at standing targets??? If so join/go to an IDPA/IPSC/USPSA style matches for training/practice. When TSHTF you won't notice the DA pull  .This. I ran a DA/SA gun at a carbine class and during transition to sidearm drills, I did not notice that first DA pull. |
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I like DA/SA, just not enough to invest in changing platforms. If Berettas weren't so big, or Sigs and HKs so expensive, or S&Ws still being manufactured, I might tote those instead.
This article by Ernest Langdon, who knows a thing or two about shooting DA/SA pistols, is good: Fear Not the Double Action Shot The advice to keep the trigger moving is especially important. All that aside, if your hands are too small to reach the trigger, you need a different gun. |
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Quoted: Posted by ViniVidivici Absolutely. There's a reason for the saying "beware the man with only one gun"........................... Yeah because if he ever has to pick up a different gun than the "one" he's used to, he's going to fumble with it like a monkey f*n a football. C'mon now, you really know what the point was, don't you? |
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Quoted: I like DA/SA, just not enough to invest in changing platforms. If Berettas weren't so big, or Sigs and HKs so expensive, or S&Ws still being manufactured, I might tote those instead. This article by Ernest Langdon, who knows a thing or two about shooting DA/SA pistols, is good: Fear Not the Double Action Shot The advice to keep the trigger moving is especially important. All that aside, if your hands are too small to reach the trigger, you need a different gun. Personally I've never had much of a problem being accurate with a good DA pull, probably from my revolver experience. My problem comes from the transition between a long 12 pound DA first shot, to a 4 pound second shot that's short and crisp. Something that the article you posted only slightly touches on. If there was a follow up article that covered it I'd love to see it. |
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figure out exactly "where" your trigger finger "fits" on the trigger face––a combination of where you can smoothly press the trigger in DA, yet still be cosistant enough (it wont be the 1st pad/flangie, but at least to the 1st knuckle/joint or just before)
once you got that, keep the trigger finger the same thougout for SA pulls |
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Quoted:
Posted by ViniVidivici
Absolutely. There's a reason for the saying "beware the man with only one gun"........................... [/quote] Yeah because if he ever has to pick up a different gun than the "one" he's used to, he's going to fumble with it like a monkey f*n a football. It's a good thing to learn the different types of guns out there, not saying you have to "own" them all, but knowing the difference between them would be beneficial to anyone owning a gun. Example: I took a friend to the range the other day, he is a glock shooter, and he wanted to shoot my CZ. I gave it to him and told him about it etc....but when he actually started handleing the gun and trying to figure it out, it took him several minutes before he got the hang of it. If that had been a serious situation where he needed to pick up the gun and fire it, it might not have turned out so well for any of us.[/quote] You don't have a clue do you. |
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Do you guys prefer DA/SA trigger pulls? Nope. I prefer a consistent trigger from shot to shot. I can shoot a DA/SA gun just fine, but I prefer a consistent trigger. All of my carry guns these days have a consistent trigger. My new CZ is the DA/SA and I find myself shifting my grip on the first shot where it throws off my point of aim on the second shot. Are you sure it's grip and not trigger control? When I train new shooters I inevitably encounter people who can make the first shot just fine but gank the hell out of the second shot because their brain is still using the muscle power necessary for the longer and heavier DA pull. I can get them to put the first shot on target but the second shot is barely on paper. The trigger reach on CZ handguns in DA mode is excessive, in my opinion....one of the reasons I don't like the platform all that much. Grip probably isn't helping you, but I would bet dollars to donuts that your real issue is trigger control. Trying to shoot a gun that doesn't fit isn't helping you any, but with enough practice you can get used to it. |
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Example: I took a friend to the range the other day, he is a glock shooter, and he wanted to shoot my CZ. I gave it to him and told him about it etc....but when he actually started handleing the gun and trying to figure it out, it took him several minutes before he got the hang of it. If that had been a serious situation where he needed to pick up the gun and fire it, it might not have turned out so well for any of us. The odds of having to use a battlefield pickup by the average guy are exceptionally small. Most people are far better off standardizing on one platform that fits their needs and then training extensively to develop their accuracy, speed, and weapon manipulations. When people become truly proficient with a handgun, they will be able to pick up just about any handgun and use it acceptably well. |
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I've never had a problem with them. While I prefer a single action auto, I don't see what the big deal is about traditional double actions.
I suggest anyone with an open mind on the matter read the following article: Traditional Double Actions: they ain't tough to shoot. |
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The trigger reach on CZ handguns in DA mode is excessive, in my opinion....one of the reasons I don't like the platform all that much. Grip probably isn't helping you, but I would bet dollars to donuts that your real issue is trigger control. Trying to shoot a gun that doesn't fit isn't helping you any, but with enough practice you can get used to it. The recurve triggers on the P01/SP01 have solved the long LOP problem, and the slimmer triggers on current-production 75Bs help a lot too (they aren't as different from the classic trigger as the recurves though). That aside, a standard 75 or 75B is more of a SA with double-strike capability - the safety can only be used when fully cocked, and there is no provision for decocking either (other than manually dropping the hammer). |
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Example: I took a friend to the range the other day, he is a glock shooter, and he wanted to shoot my CZ. I gave it to him and told him about it etc....but when he actually started handleing the gun and trying to figure it out, it took him several minutes before he got the hang of it. If that had been a serious situation where he needed to pick up the gun and fire it, it might not have turned out so well for any of us. The odds of having to use a battlefield pickup by the average guy are exceptionally small. Most people are far better off standardizing on one platform that fits their needs and then training extensively to develop their accuracy, speed, and weapon manipulations. When people become truly proficient with a handgun, they will be able to pick up just about any handgun and use it acceptably well. While training with one specific firearm will get you profecient, with that said fiream, doesn't mean that that profeniency will automatically be transfered to a different firearm. And I'm not talking about a "battlefield", just look at all of the shootings going on in everday life, everywhere in world. If you happen to be at one of those shootings and the bad guy is physically confronted by another person and you have to grab his dropped weapon and it's not your standard striker fired handgun, glock for example, and If you're not familiar with any weapon you pick up, your not going to be profecient/quick/weapon manipulation or whatever with it. |
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While training with one specific firearm will get you profecient, with that said fiream, doesn't mean that that profeniency will automatically be transfered to a different firearm. And I'm not talking about a "battlefield", just look at all of the shootings going on in everday life, everywhere in world. If you happen to be at one of those shootings and the bad guy is physically confronted by another person and you have to grab his dropped weapon and it's not your standard striker fired handgun, glock for example, and If you're not familiar with any weapon you pick up, your not going to be profecient/quick/weapon manipulation or whatever with it. Sight alignment and trigger control *ARE* universal skills with a handgun. Someone who spends their time and effort learning to truly master those two fundamental aspects of shooting will be able to pick up just about any firearm and put bullets where they need to go. No, they may not be able to reload an H&K P7 quite as fast as the Glock they are used to using in daily life, but generally they'll be able to manage. I wouldn't really bet on picking up an active shooter's weapon and engaging him with it. That doesn't seem to happen in the real life incidents. A basic competence with firearms in general is good, but that can be achieved without owning a bunch of different guns. Most people would be better served by buying a duty quality handgun like 9mm Glocks or M&P's or something, standardizing on it, and then spending as much money as they can on training and practice rather than collecting a menagerie of different handguns. I know this because I've collected a menagerie of different handguns. I've owned at least one of practically everything on the market. "Well what if the only weapon available is a LeMat revolver? What's he gonna do then???" It's far more likely that if you have to use a firearm to kill someone who is trying to kill you (or others) that it's going to be the one on your hip or no gun at all. |
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While training with one specific firearm will get you proficient, with that said firearm, doesn't mean that that proficiency will automatically be transferred to a different firearm. And I'm not talking about a "battlefield", just look at all of the shootings going on in everyday life, everywhere in world. If you happen to be at one of those shootings and the bad guy is physically confronted by another person and you have to grab his dropped weapon and it's not your standard striker fired handgun, glock for example, and If you're not familiar with any weapon you pick up, your not going to be proficient/quick/weapon manipulation or whatever with it. Sight alignment and trigger control *ARE* universal skills with a handgun. Someone who spends their time and effort learning to truly master those two fundamental aspects of shooting will be able to pick up just about any firearm and put bullets where they need to go. No, they may not be able to reload an H&K P7 quite as fast as the Glock they are used to using in daily life, but generally they'll be able to manage. I wouldn't really bet on picking up an active shooter's weapon and engaging him with it. That doesn't seem to happen in the real life incidents. A basic competence with firearms in general is good, but that can be achieved without owning a bunch of different guns. Most people would be better served by buying a duty quality handgun like 9mm Glocks or M&P's or something, standardizing on it, and then spending as much money as they can on training and practice rather than collecting a menagerie of different handguns. I know this because I've collected a menagerie of different handguns. I've owned at least one of practically everything on the market. "Well what if the only weapon available is a LeMat revolver? What's he gonna do then???" It's far more likely that if you have to use a firearm to kill someone who is trying to kill you (or others) that it's going to be the one on your hip or no gun at all. I agree that training, trigger control etc...are great things to learn and be good at and will allow you to put rounds on target... But I'm just saying, and I'm not advocating going out and buying a gun in every different make and model, that if you only limit yourself to one platform and "never" use any other gun, even if it's a friends gun that you only put 10-15 rounds through, you are limiting your knowledge of firearms....just my opinion though and it's not worth much... 
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I agree that training, trigger control etc...are great things to learn and be good at and will allow you to put rounds on target... But I'm just saying, and I'm not advocating going out and buying a gun in every different make and model, that if you only limit yourself to one platform and "never" use any other gun, even if it's a friends gun that you only put 10-15 rounds through, you are limiting your knowledge of firearms....just my opinion though and it's not worth much... There's nothing wrong with shooting other guns, especially if you don't have to fork out any money to do so. In fact, it can be beneficial in helping you understand what you like or don't like. The whole "standardization" thing as I understand it relates to what you fork out money for. In other words, if I was giving advice to a new shooter who wanted to develop proficiency for serious social uses of firearms (concealed carry, duty use) I would suggest buying one or more members of the Glock 9mm family and then spending as much time as possible training and practicing with those weapons. This would be a far more efficient use of funds than buying several different handguns of various types. Once they become reasonably proficient with a fairly standard platform they should know enough to be able to appreciate the differences in other weapons. Most who buy guns do not do this. I sure as hell didn't. |