Posted: 4/27/2009 12:34:20 PM EDT
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Guys,
I have started searching for a 10mm handgun in semi-auto, however I have had no luck other than Glock as of present. Can anyone reccomend or list manufacturers that sell current firearms in this caliber? Thanks, Nulltime |
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Dan Wesson, old Colts that have a bit of a reputation for cracking, old Smith and Wessons. Maybe a CZ? http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm05.html Can't remember my wife's birthday but I can remember every pistol ever made in 10mm  |
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Dan Wesson, old Colts that have a bit of a reputation for cracking, old Smith and Wessons. Maybe a CZ? http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm05.html Can't remember my wife's birthday but I can remember every pistol ever made in 10mm
Not a CZ but the EAA which is a copy... |
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Quoted: Quoted: Dan Wesson, old Colts that have a bit of a reputation for cracking, old Smith and Wessons. Maybe a CZ? http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm05.html Can't remember my wife's birthday but I can remember every pistol ever made in 10mm Not a CZ but the EAA which is a copy... And here I was feeling good abiout myself  |
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If you can wait a few months Vltor is working on a new Bren Ten they are calling the "Fortis"
Seen here |
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If you can wait a few months Vltor is working on a new Bren Ten they are calling the "Fortis" Seen here A few months? |
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If you can wait a few months Vltor is working on a new Bren Ten they are calling the "Fortis" Seen here A few months? Thats what I've been telling myself at least... 
I want one pretty bad |
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All depends on what you’re looking for in a 10mm. If you plan on shooting a steady diet of full power 10mm loads, then without a doubt, the gun you want is a used S&W 1006, which is built like an M1 tank; really a great gun…but it’s a big gun.
For a limited diet of full power 10mm and a steady diet of moderate loads, my hands down choice would be the Dan Wesson, which are VERY nice 1911’s and in my opinion, about the best deal going in a 1911 when you weigh out the features. I’m not crazy about everything being stainless, but I could get over that. The EAA Witness is a very good pistol that’s often overlooked. Ergonomics are very good and you can buy conversion units to swap to different calibers. The Glock 20 is a great pistol, but I list it last because it doesn’t fit my hand very well (but that doesn’t mean it won’t fit yours). The high back-strap of the G20 gives you a good handle of the 10mm recoil, which is surprisingly not bad in the G2 given the gun’s weight. Still, the 10mm is almost always a reloaders cartridge and both myself and Glock don’t recommend reloaded ammunition in the Glock line of pistols. There are two others on the used market that are worth looking at. 1 – Springfield Omega. This is a 1911 with a very different top end (heavier and a dual extractor setup). This is a way to have a 10mm 1911 that will make the long haul. That heavier slide translates into much longer life for the frame; and the quality of the old Omega is top notch. 2 – Colt Delta Elite. Just like the Dan Wesson, it’s to be given limited doses of 10mm. But here’s the rub: The Delta will probably cost you as much, or nearly as much as the Dan Wesson, and it’s not nearly as nice as the Dan Wesson, so I’d opt for the Dan Wesson, unless you’re just a Colt kinda guy. (and there’s nothing wrong with that). |
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Here's the thing with the Bren Ten - The slide mounted safety and adjustable rear sight were poorly thought out, and were to the detriment of the design. The serrations on the front strap and back strap represent 1980's investment casting technology, and just aren't that nice. Fit and finish were first class, and they are nice shooting handguns. Still, you could start with a Witness and then fine tune it into a pseudo-Bren-Ten for much less money, and have a better pistol when your done. Just some thoughts.
If you can wait a few months Vltor is working on a new Bren Ten they are calling the "Fortis" Seen here |
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I've got a G20, G29 and a month ago I picked up a S&W 1076. I love the Glocks, but that 1076 is a sweet shooter and would make a great carry piece, it's only 1" thick with the standard, non palm swell grips. I'm not a big fan of the DA/SA autos, but of all of them that I've owned, the 1076 might be my favorite. No slide mounted controls, Sig style decocker, no hammer spur, thin gun and thin mags. Every time I look at it I think "Man, that would be a great carry gun!". |
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Quoted: myself and Glock don’t recommend reloaded ammunition in the Glock line of pistols. I've shot thousands of reloads through my G20 and G29, both 10mm and .40 (with conversion barrels). Shooting reloads in Glocks is no more or less safe than shooting them in any other gun. When it comes to reloads, safety, or lack thereof, is fully in the hands of the reloader. And every manufacturer recommends against reloads, not just Glock. |
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I've shot thousands of reloads through my G20 and G29, both 10mm and .40 (with conversion barrels). Shooting reloads in Glocks is no more or less safe than shooting them in any other gun. When it comes to reloads, safety, or lack thereof, is fully in the hands of the reloader.
I hear that all the time and all I can say is, good for you. But the Glock has proven to be less safe with reloaded ammunition than other pistols; and no, not every pistol says don't use reloaded ammunition; that's sort of a wives tale.
And every manufacturer recommends against reloads, not just Glock. Dean Spier has documented issues with reloads in Glocks for well over 15 years, actually cost him his writing career. Not once have I caught him making a false statement or claim in his documentation. Dean, as you can imagine is a controversial person because he has the nerve to say something negative about one of the most popular and successful pistols in history. You can read up on the subject here: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html I don't want to get into a wizzin contest; you want to reload for your Glock, that's your business. Someone doesn't want to heed my warning, that's fine, you don't know me from Adam. I would strongly recommend reading Dean's work and deciding for yourself. Many have been offended by Dean's work, so rather than take issue with the subject at hand, they go after Dean, which is the first sign of a weak arguement. Dean is NOT a Glock hater, but he has VERY little patience for those who worship at the alter of Glock. Dean has come to the defense (even in court) of Glock on several occasions, and will be the first to tell you the gun is best left un-modified. As a pistolsmith, I can tell you the weak point of most every pistol out there; including the ones I carry. For some reason, when you tell some that the Glocks have poorly supported chambers, it's like telling them their mother is ugly. Honestly the responses I see out of some are outright irrational. THERE IS NO PERFECT PISTOL. I just put this out there as information, again; I don't want to get into a wizzin contest (and I know there are those who are just lining up to do exactly that). Don't take my word for it; do the research yourself and decide for yourself...it's YOUR hand that's wrapped around the gun, not mine. (Oh, and I've carried Glocks in the past, will do so in the future; flaws and all). |
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All depends on what you’re looking for in a 10mm. If you plan on shooting a steady diet of full power 10mm loads, then without a doubt, the gun you want is a used S&W 1006, which is built like an M1 tank; really a great gun…but it’s a big gun. For a limited diet of full power 10mm and a steady diet of moderate loads, my hands down choice would be the Dan Wesson, which are VERY nice 1911’s and in my opinion, about the best deal going in a 1911 when you weigh out the features. I’m not crazy about everything being stainless, but I could get over that. The EAA Witness is a very good pistol that’s often overlooked. Ergonomics are very good and you can buy conversion units to swap to different calibers. The Glock 20 is a great pistol, but I list it last because it doesn’t fit my hand very well (but that doesn’t mean it won’t fit yours). The high back-strap of the G20 gives you a good handle of the 10mm recoil, which is surprisingly not bad in the G2 given the gun’s weight. Still, the 10mm is almost always a reloaders cartridge and both myself and Glock don’t recommend reloaded ammunition in the Glock line of pistols. There are two others on the used market that are worth looking at. 1 – Springfield Omega. This is a 1911 with a very different top end (heavier and a dual extractor setup). This is a way to have a 10mm 1911 that will make the long haul. That heavier slide translates into much longer life for the frame; and the quality of the old Omega is top notch. 2 – Colt Delta Elite. Just like the Dan Wesson, it’s to be given limited doses of 10mm. But here’s the rub: The Delta will probably cost you as much, or nearly as much as the Dan Wesson, and it’s not nearly as nice as the Dan Wesson, so I’d opt for the Dan Wesson, unless you’re just a Colt kinda guy. (and there’s nothing wrong with that). I would probably be looking to both use it at the range often and as a ccw as well. Would the S&W 1006 be the way to go then? I would prefer full power loads if they are commercially avaliable (I don't reload as of yet and probably not for sometime) Also you list the Springfield Omega that compares with the S&W? Thanks again guys! |
| As a CCW choice, the S&W 1006 is large and heavy. Still, I had a friend in CA who carried one daily and it never seemed to bother him. The Omega is just as tough as the S&W but they're very hard to locate. If you're not reloading and you want to carry concealed, yet still shoot a steady diet of full power loads, then I'd probably recommend the Glock. |
| Glock 20 is the most affordable way to shoot full power 10mm all of the time (without frame cracking, beating the gun to death, etc., etc.). I also reload for it along with my G29...if shooting handloads through a Glock scares you, then buy an aftermarket barrel for a little over $100. |
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If you can wait a few months Vltor is working on a new Bren Ten they are calling the "Fortis" Seen here A few months? Will mags be nearly impossible to find and damned expensive when you can get them? |
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Guys, I have started searching for a 10mm handgun in semi-auto, however I have had no luck other than Glock as of present. Can anyone reccomend or list manufacturers that sell current firearms in this caliber? Thanks, Nulltime There is a reason for that. Get the glock. Really, it is the best there is for the 10mm. TXL |
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Quoted: Dean Spier  I rest my case. Quoted: Wow, didn’t I mention something about attacking the messenger rather than the message? My bet is that I'll be the next one attacked. Spier is well known Glock hater and much of what he's written was debunked years ago. The fact that you're repeating his BS and posting his website as proof ends the debate as far as I'm concerned. I'm simply not going to waste my time debating "facts" that were debunked years ago. As far as "attacking the messenger" is concerned, you've shown up out of the blue and presented yourself as an expert in a whole lot of threads lately. You say you're a pistolsmith? What's your bonafides? Where did you learn your trade? Where and for how many years have your worked the trade? If your knowledge of Glocks is any example your expertise seems to be of the gun store and internet type. Are we just supposed to accept your misinformation without saying anything? I'll call BS any and every time I see someone repeating gun store bullshit. If you consider that an attack then I guess you'll just have to cope with it. |
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As far as "attacking the messenger" is concerned, you've shown up out of the blue and presented yourself as an expert in a whole lot of threads lately. You say you're a pistolsmith? What's your bonafides? Where did you learn your trade? Where and for how many years have your worked the trade?
I didn't realize I had to show a resume to take part in discussions on this forum.
If your knowledge of Glocks is any example your expertise seems to be of the gun store and internet type. Are we just supposed to accept your misinformation without saying anything? I'll call BS any and every time I see someone repeating gun store bullshit. If you consider that an attack then I guess you'll just have to cope with it. On this issue, I'm not prepared to go to the wall, because I think either side can make a convincing case to support their conclusion. Just because you and I come to different conclusions, doesn't mean I consider yours to be wrong, just different. I dont consider this issue to be difinitive. Yet, you seem to consider it to be difinitive, and you claim I'm spouting gun store BS; well I disagree. Your response is rude beyond proportion to anything I've said. I believe you have your mind made up about me and that's okay with me; 'cause I know your type as well. Like I said, I'm not prepared to go to the wall on this issue because I can understand and somewhat agree with your side of the issue. But if I'm the windbag you make me out to be, then I invite you to drop in on ALL of my other threads and "call BS" on the knowledge and experience I've shared. I wasn't trying to be contentious, but you seemed very willing to be exactly that. Now we can either decide that we're on two different sides of ONE issue and agree to disagree like gentlemen; or we can become mortal enemies on ARF.com. I'll concede this one, because I can't difinitively say I'm right. And if you had the intellectual honesty to put aside personaities such as Dean Speir, I think you would be able to recognize that those who have concerns about reloaded ammunition in Glocks are not unfounded. If you can't see that, then you've either never looked fully into the issue with an open mind, or you could never get past Dean Speir being an ass. (and he is) Me, I can get past it all, and acknowledge that people like you, and thousands of others have had nothing but good luck reloading for the Glock. But I also take note of me personally seeing 3 kB's in a 20 year span (and I'm open minded enough to know that doesn't prove anything in and of itself). That gun magazines never seem to feature reloading for your Glock articles. That law enforcement agencies across the nation have en-masse discontinued the practice of using re-manufactured ammunition in Glocks (just call Black Hills and ask if their sales of re-manufactured ammunition to Glock agencies is increasing or decreasing) as well as several other anecdotal incidents. Still, I dont see this as being difinitive, but enough to ask questions; but I don't see your side as being difinitive either. This is why I'm willing to just agree to disagree on this one if you're capable of doing the same. So what's it going to be? Act like gentlemen or just have a pissin match on every thread. |
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For current production gun, I would recommend the full size Glock.
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My friend had a Springfield Omega in 10mm. It shot like a dream, this was before the introduction of Colt's Delta Elite, and 10mm ammo was tougher to find then "hen's teeth." My friend's gun had two holes near the front of the slide/BBL which acted like a muzzle brake to reduce muzzle flip. It worked pretty to me. But only drawback that I have heard, and I don't know if it is true, the Omega has a penchant to break extractors. Finding replacement extractors are extremely difficult at best.
. . 1 – Springfield Omega. This is a 1911 with a very different top end (heavier and a dual extractor setup). This is a way to have a 10mm 1911 that will make the long haul. That heavier slide translates into much longer life for the frame; and the quality of the old Omega is top notch. 2 – Colt Delta Elite. Just like the Dan Wesson, it’s to be given limited doses of 10mm. But here’s the rub: The Delta will probably cost you as much, or nearly as much as the Dan Wesson, and it’s not nearly as nice as the Dan Wesson, so I’d opt for the Dan Wesson, unless you’re just a Colt kinda guy. (and there’s nothing wrong with that). The top part/slide of the Omega was designed and made by Peter Stahl of Germany, the lower half of the Springfield Omega is standard 1911. (Springfield for a very short-time just sold the top part). Peter Stahl also sold some limited slide assemblies to some mom & pop gun manufacturers, but I forget their names as they went out of business years ago. I have a SS Colt Delta Gold Cup, and it is dream to shoot, even though I only shot downloaded 10mm(comparable to 45ACP) to not break up a semi-colletectible gun. I have the later one, where the slide stop hole is cut away. Colt found out that the tremendous pounding of the 10mm round caused the frame to crack there, so instead of hole, Colt cut away the top bit of metal in the slide stop hole and the frame cracking stopped. My friend bought empty 10mm cases and bullets, and his other friend loaded for him. Back then, cost-wise it was very similar to 45ACP. |
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But only drawback that I have heard, and I don't know if it is true, the Omega has a penchant to break extractors. Finding replacement extractors are extremely difficult at best.
That may be true, I don't have enough experience with them to know what their weak points are. I've shot a few in a few different cartridges and they always shot very well. The Peters-Stahl does (I think it's two people, not one), use a proprietary extractor sytem. The primary is an external extractor like a Star Model B, and the secondary is an iinternal extractor on the other side (can you say over-engineered?). and works just like a left side extractor on a .22 rimfire.
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| Colt has the Delta Elite back I guess. Nice shooter the original was. I sold mine a year or so ago. Sights were blah and the trigger sucked stock, but over all it was a excellant shooter. I wonder if Colt improved upon it any? All and all I like shooting a 10mm over a 45ACP though. I think if Colt chambered the 10mm or even a 38super on a railed frame I'd have to have one. |
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G20 is the best 10mm ever made IMO.
The S&W 1006 is a very good pistol. The 1911s in 10mm are nice too; the DW, Colts, and customs out there usually need to be resprung though. The S&W 610 is a neato wheelgun in 10mm, great for reloaders who want to push it. The Witness is ok, but really hit or miss quality wise. |
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Here's the thing with the Bren Ten - The slide mounted safety and adjustable rear sight were poorly thought out, and were to the detriment of the design. The serrations on the front strap and back strap represent 1980's investment casting technology, and just aren't that nice. Fit and finish were first class, and they are nice shooting handguns. Still, you could start with a Witness and then fine tune it into a pseudo-Bren-Ten for much less money, and have a better pistol when your done. Just some thoughts.
If you can wait a few months Vltor is working on a new Bren Ten they are calling the "Fortis" Seen here Couple things..... You dont shoot a BREN.. I have two SMs all the spare parts I could ever need, and a source for more. The gun was well designed, and shots more accurately than any handgun I have ever handled. The casting process made for voids in the slide which can cause catastrophic failure, and the sintered metal frame (moulded) shared the same issue. Both of my guns have been magnafluxed and xrayed, and are fine. I would never shoot either... And... I have a 900.00 Wonder Finish Witness... not an Elite mind you. I have the extra 500.00 wrapped up in postage back and forth for warranty claims. If you are successful in tuning that gun to be half of what a Bren is, let me know. I can hammer a nail into a 2x4 with the adjustable rear site on the Bren.. Just thought I would let you know...They are that tough... |
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G20 is the best 10mm ever made IMO. The S&W 1006 is a very good pistol. The 1911s in 10mm are nice too; the DW, Colts, and customs out there usually need to be resprung though. The S&W 610 is a neato wheelgun in 10mm, great for reloaders who want to push it. The Witness is ok, but really hit or miss quality wise. *Begin Rant* Disagree  . I have 6 Witness' and they have equal or greater quality than my HK's, Colts, Springfields, Fn's.... The list could go on but It would get boring. Accuracy wise, I would put my Witness' up against my ed brown, clarks, SW custom, and any other gun I've shot. *End Rant*
That being said. I have a Witness Limited in 10mm and absolutely love it. I only pull it out when I want to embarass someone when they brag on there pistol... 
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G20 is the best 10mm ever made IMO. The S&W 1006 is a very good pistol. The 1911s in 10mm are nice too; the DW, Colts, and customs out there usually need to be resprung though. The S&W 610 is a neato wheelgun in 10mm, great for reloaders who want to push it. The Witness is ok, but really hit or miss quality wise. *Begin Rant* Disagree . I have 6 Witness' and they have equal or greater quality than my HK's, Colts, Springfields, Fn's.... The list could go on but It would get boring. Accuracy wise, I would put my Witness' up against my ed brown, clarks, SW custom, and any other gun I've shot. *End Rant*
That being said. I have a Witness Limited in 10mm and absolutely love it. I only pull it out when I want to embarass someone when they brag on there pistol... I am glad you are happy with your Witness in 10 mike mike, and have often thought of buying one to compliment my Glocks, but BB is right, they have been known to have more than their fair share of frame cracks. |
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If you're looking for a carry gun the G29 is hard to beat. I love mine, it's fun to shoot, reliable and concealable. For the weight, cost, reliablity, power, capactiy and concealability it's very tough to beat. +1 My G29 is my CCW and very concealable. I carry it in an MTAC with shorts and a t-shirt. |
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If you're looking for a carry gun the G29 is hard to beat. I love mine, it's fun to shoot, reliable and concealable. For the weight, cost, reliablity, power, capactiy and concealability it's very tough to beat. +1 My G29 is my CCW and very concealable. I carry it in an MTAC with shorts and a t-shirt. I'll agree as well. In fact, I actually like to shoot my G29 w/ the pierce extension better than my G20. What a killer little package. |
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G20 is the best 10mm ever made IMO. The S&W 1006 is a very good pistol. The 1911s in 10mm are nice too; the DW, Colts, and customs out there usually need to be resprung though. The S&W 610 is a neato wheelgun in 10mm, great for reloaders who want to push it. The Witness is ok, but really hit or miss quality wise. *Begin Rant* Disagree . I have 6 Witness' and they have equal or greater quality than my HK's, Colts, Springfields, Fn's.... The list could go on but It would get boring. Accuracy wise, I would put my Witness' up against my ed brown, clarks, SW custom, and any other gun I've shot. *End Rant*
That being said. I have a Witness Limited in 10mm and absolutely love it. I only pull it out when I want to embarass someone when they brag on there pistol... So you have a good copy, and that invalidates BB's point of them being hit or miss how??? 
My 10mm Witness P was a tackdriver also. It was also the least reliable pistol I ever shot. |
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I've had two Witnesses, one was somewhat nice and I regretted selling it, the replacement was a total POS and in researching fixes for it I discovered a world of issues. I am glad you got some good Witnesses, the one I liked was fantastic, but I stand by my hit/miss comment.
On another note my Delta Elites (4) have all had EJECTORS break, not extractors. Are you sure its the extractors y'all are having problems with? For me when I get a new DE I automatically change out the recoil and mainspring, firing pin retainer, recoil spring guide and replace the ejector with a Wilson or Caspian. |