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Posted: 10/9/2003 4:44:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 7:06:32 PM EDT by topgunpilot20]
I've narrowed my choices to these two pistols for IDPA/IPSC type shooting and eventually concealed carry. at the moment the XD9 is looking really appealing, cause of its lower price. the G34 is really priced a little too high to be considered. so what's your opinions on these two guns?

Edit: being a poor college student, i won't be doing any upgrades for quite some time with the exception of maybe sights.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 5:38:03 PM EDT
For competition I would go with the glock 17. There are more aftermarket parts for it, including high caps of greater than 16.

The XD has no true high cap mag in the USA due to the ban. You can use a xd 40 mag loaded with 9mm. You'll get 15 rounds in the mag plus one in the gun. Basicly you'll be shooting to slide lock or doing standing reloads when engaging typical USPSA arrays.

The glock has a lower bore axis and the trigger has a shorter reset. The Glock will just shoot faster. There are a whole bunch of aftermarket parts for the glock. Including 17 round high caps. With a extension you get 23+1. with that much ammo you may be able to engage some stages without even making a mag change. At the very least it'll give you more freedom in what order you engage targets, where you engage them from, and the ability to pick up missed shots. All in all lovering your time.

There are very few holsters for the XD, no magwells, no tungsten guide rods, extended mag releases, extended slide release, etc. So while it would be a decent IDPA gun, it is limited in USPSA as a production or L10 gun. In true IPSC it does not even qualify as production because of the trigger. USPSA may go the same way in the future, you never know. Then you'll be stuck shooting minor in L10.

There is a reason why there are so many glocks in IDPA and USPSA/IPSC. The extra $100 or whatever it is would be well spent on a glock just for the potential for upgrades, and ability to shoot limited class (most fun in my opinion.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 8:27:56 PM EDT
Yar, your treasure trove of information is appreciated as always.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 8:53:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 8:53:59 PM EDT by -Absolut-]

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
There are very few holsters for the XD


not true at all

i would go with the XD, more pistol for less money
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 5:34:07 AM EDT
You can buy hi-caps from Springfield for $34.00 for the XD9.

If you're going to be shooting Production class, most of those upgrades are unnecessary, including hi-caps. The XD9 has a pretty good built-in magwell that speeds up reloads. SA will do a trigger job for under $100. Sights can be replaced with any of the aftermarket sights for SIG Sauer pistols.

There are at least a half-dozen good holsters for the XD, most of them Kydex. I use a G-Code that has been excellent so far.

The XD has a slightly higher bore axis and a slightly longer trigger reset than the Glock, but once you get used to it, it's not a problem. I saw Rob Leatham put 6 shots into the A-zone of an IPSC target in under two seconds with an XD, so it's more the shooter than the gun.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 8:53:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2003 9:01:10 AM EDT by Yar1182]
OK regardng holsters. When you compare holsters for beretta's, Glock, Sigs, 1911's, etc vrs XD's the former has significantly more holsters than the latter. How many holsters are presently avaliable for the XD, 10? I know that there is only one race holster for the xd, most of the strong side holsters are kydex, what about leather, or inside waist band, shoulder,or holsters with rail light attached etc? Never did I say there were no holster avaliable, just very few holsters such as only one race holster if this gun is used in competition.

Second, just about any gun can be used in production. That's a small feat. All you need is a gun with some sort of double action first trigger pull, and 10 round mags. The thing that was important to me and many people is the ability to move out of production into limited. You don't need to do upgrades right away, but it's the option to do so.

The XD has a slight ramped mag funnel, I would not call that a mag well. A mag well does something else besides make reloads easier. It adds weight to the gun. You want weight everywhere but the parts that move. The extra weight of a heavy brass magwell helps such up some of the felt recoil. Same thing for the heavy tungsten guide rods. Lastly what about a extended mag release?

The glock trigger job involves 2 springs and a polished 3.5# connector, no need to send the gun in to springfeild, and cost much less than $100. Go pull the trigger on a Glock 34 or 35 to get a idea of what a 3.5# connector is capable of. After you respring and polish it, it feels twice as good. Only thing that is better is a 1911 of course. Another benifit is every trigger pull is the same. The first one is not heavy, with the ones to follow being light. Every trigger pull on my glock is 2.25#'s, but it qualifies as a double action like trigger, with no manual safeties to forget. You pull the trigger and it shoots. Once you learn to shoot from the reset, you can really rock. I tink this is the problem many peple have with the glock trigger. They never learned to shoot from reset. Then again most guns have a longer reset.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 8:59:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2003 9:04:57 AM EDT by Yar1182]
I looked at springfeild site. Their high caps for the XD are avaliable to the Law Enforcement only since they are post ban mags. Second they only hold 12 rounds. If you use a XD 40 mag loaded with 9mm you only get 15 rounds. For the reasons I stated earlier you need at least 16+1 to gain a advantage in limited.

topgunpilot20

If you do get the glock 17 I'll send you a factory extended mag release, and a factory adj rear sight at no charge. They will be production legal since they are factory options for the 17. then all you need is a connector and 2 spring which will cost you around at $25 and you'll have a pretty decent production gun with ability to be upgraded to limited if/when you decided to do so.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 9:29:22 AM EDT


17 round beretta mags work in the xd.

so do smith and wesson mags.

so do sig p226 mags.

i even have 2 p226 30 rounders for my xd that function flawlessly.

mags are no prob.

The trigger reset IS a little longer than the glocks.

I still like my xd better. If anything it just makes me feel better supporting sprngfield instead of glock. I dont shoot IPSC.



-Spaceman

Link Posted: 10/10/2003 10:28:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2003 10:33:17 AM EDT by ken_mays]

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
I looked at springfeild site. Their high caps for the XD are avaliable to the Law Enforcement only since they are post ban mags. Second they only hold 12 rounds. If you use a XD 40 mag loaded with 9mm you only get 15 rounds.



Their catalog lists pre-ban hi-caps for the 9mm, 17 rounds, $34.00. I believe these are the factory modified Beretta mags. What you are referring to is the .40 LEO only mags.

I have no doubt that when the XD's been on the market a couple more years, there will be plenty of accessories. The Glock's been sold here since what, '85? It's clearly the better choice from an aftermarket standpoint. If you can get used to the funky finger grooves and weird grip angle, and want to trick it out, I'd have to recommend it.

Regarding extended mag releases: The Glock needs it, as did my Beretta. The XD's ambi mag release allows a fast mag dump via the trigger finger.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 11:56:30 AM EDT



Let me clarify something.

I would NOT classify the xd as a competition pistol. I would call it a combat pistol.

The mag release is ambi, but also fairly stiff, and like i said, the glock has a shorter reset, so it can be shot faster.

the HS engineers did an excellent job making a combat handgun, but if you want speed over combat practicality, you should get a glock and pimp it out.

if you do get a glock, i hope you like the stupid grip angle.

-Spaceman

Link Posted: 10/10/2003 12:20:50 PM EDT






-Spaceman

Link Posted: 10/12/2003 2:29:33 AM EDT
Spaceman, that OD XD9 kicks *ass*!

I've been thinknig about upgrading my XD, and saw a similar custom finish job, save for the fact that it was silver (stainless? NP-3 maybe?). Where did you get yours done and how much did it cost?
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 6:12:56 AM EDT
IMHO, the biggest difference that you will find between the GLOCK and the Croation Sensation is the grip angle. The grip angle of the GLOCK is far closer to the old Luger while the grip angle of the HS/XD is closer to the SiGs and 1911s. Try presenting both and see which points better for you.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 9:01:39 AM EDT
Just for IDPA I would much rather have the XD. I can shoot them much better than any Glock I have ever owned.

For a carry gun I like the DAO Glock better than the single action XD.

In my opinion the Glock is much safer.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 9:51:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 9:57:01 AM EDT by Yar1182]
I hear the converted sig/beretta/S&W mags leave a gap between the butt of the pistol, and the baspad. This can cause over insertion, leading to a jammed gun. Granted if all you do is slowfire at a traditional shooting range your not going to over insert a mag. On the other hand if you were shooting USPSA/IPSC reloading on the run, while under the stress of the timer you can easily do this. A guy in my squad over inserted a extended 10 round mag into his 1911 causing a super bad jam. He took a DNF (did not finish) on the stage and it took two just to un-jam it.

Also many of those mags are not ideal for competition. Those long 20 round mags are over the 140mm lenght restriction for USPSA. I guess the beretta mags with the cheap quality schere +2 extensions may work. Besides the beretta, none of those mags have mag extensions.

Yhe XD is a fine gun. It's just not a competition gun, at least not until/if the AWB sunsets.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 3:25:42 PM EDT
XD period.
Wife just finish selling off all her Glocks and switched to XD's.
Way more gun for the money. Much better trigger. Better grip angle. .40 factory mags work fine in the 9mm as high caps, no need to bother with modifying the Beretta or S&W mags. Same sight dovetail cuts as Sigs so after market sights are plentiful to choose from.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 4:40:40 PM EDT


Thanks Brett, I did that myself with Norrells moly resin. I reccomend you oxide blast and parkerize the parts before you do what i did because i hear it holds up much better if you do that.

Mine is holding up fine so far, but the areas where the barrel meets the slide have worn away. I doubt any finish would have held up there tho, as it is down to bare metal, through the factory finish even. I moly coated mine to prevent rust, and that is exactly what it does. The sexy sexy looks are just a cool by-product.

Yar, if you over insert the mags, you run the risk of breaking your ejector in the XD. This does NOT cause failure to function in most cases. From what i have read on the hs2000 forums, the gun will continue to funtion with a broken ejector, albeit with less robust ejection.

There is a fix for this.

You grind off a small bit of metal on the magazine lip where it would come into contact with the ejector. Problem solved. I did it to my two 30 rounders and everything is a-ok.

Oh and i would never consider the 30 rounders combat or competition ready. Just for shits and giggles at the range.

-Spaceman

Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:04:20 PM EDT













You can see the wear points on the barrel in these photos. Not too bad. The flash made it really stand out, it isnt that conspicuous in person. All Sigs i have seen do this too. I imagine you could hard chrome the barrel after it has broken in and it would hold up, but i cant imagine any other finish staying in those areas.



You can also see where the ejector would come in contact with the magazine lips if they were shoved up in there to high. You just grind that corner of the mag lips off. Unneccessary on factory mags.

-Spaceman


Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:26:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 5:28:51 PM EDT by cnatra]
XD

I've had two G19's for over 10yrs & think Glocks are great BUT

if I where buying something new though I'd get the Springfield

I hope to get an XD tactical in .357SIG next spring
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 9:39:10 PM EDT
I just got the XD9 Subcompact. Gotta vote for the XD9, I'd recommend that you get the Bi-Tone. I wish they had a Bi-Tone option for the subcompact. Later I'll have to get it hard chromed.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 7:50:01 AM EDT
If you can, shoot both and see which fits you the best & which you shoot the most accurately with.

I was all XD9 gung ho till I shot it. I don't care for it. Though if it works for you go with it.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 12:31:00 PM EDT
Save your money....Get a G-34.....end of story.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 5:25:35 PM EDT
Is this to be your first serious handgun? I applaud your decision to shoot competitive events like USPSA and IDPA. Your shooting skills will expand exponentially and you will have tons of fun, make new friends,and your self-confidence will grow quickly.
It really doesn't matter what the really good shooters shoot, but to learn with you will be hard pressed to beat a Glock 17.
Most importantly, it is ultra-reliable when fed with almost any ammo.
It is entirely competitive and good to go right out of the box, and lots of upgrades are available if you choose.
How many of the people here who recomended the HS2000 (now known as a Springfield) shoot theirs competitively?
In the last three years I have never seen an HS 2000 at an USPSA match. Not even on a newbie shooter.
I am not slamming the Springfield, let's not go there.
Get the tried and true. Glock 17. Or even better the 34.
TommyB
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 8:55:37 PM EDT
Well Rob Latham did shoot a xd at factory nationals and did well by taking second. Dave Sevigny shoot a Glock 34 and took 1st.

Not that that stuff really matters. Those guys are sponsered by those respective companies.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 5:14:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2003 5:17:33 AM EDT by ken_mays]

Originally Posted By tberg:

How many of the people here who recomended the HS2000 (now known as a Springfield) shoot theirs competitively?
In the last three years I have never seen an HS 2000 at an USPSA match. Not even on a newbie shooter.



I do, for one. I use it both for IDPA and USPSA. I have also seen a couple XD-9's at the local IDPA match as well. People seem interested in mine and tend to generally like the XD's, but many of them have told me they are waiting on the 9mm Tacticals to start shipping. I can't really blame them, I'm planning on buying one too.

Another issue with the XD's is the lack of aftermarket parts. You can get all sorts of gadgets for the Glock, but then again it's been out for 15 years. The XD and the HS2000 before it has really only been on the US market for maybe two or three years. How many people were competing with Glocks in 1988?
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 7:58:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2003 8:00:16 PM EDT by tberg]
Well there you go. Ken Mays and Robbie Leatham shoot XD's. I'd like to meet both of 'em, bet it would be a fun shooting session.
Yar, I did say "It doesn't really matter what the really good shooters shoot." Meaning guys like Leatham and Sevigny.
Get whichever you like better. If it's a toss up go wilth the cheaper one.
The main thing is, congratulations for decidng to shoot your new blaster in compettion. The benefits are many.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 11:06:03 PM EDT
Well since robbie is sponsered by springfeild what do you expect him to shoot. This was the first year he shot the XD at factory nationals in production class. He usually shoots a springfeild single stack in limited 10 for factory nationals I believe.

I think a better indicator of what the hot gun is not to look at the sponsered guys shoot. They will shoot whatever you pay them to shoot, and can pretty much win with any gun. Look at what the majority of the shooters are running in each class (at factory nationals). The Glocks rule production class, and the Para LDA is really coming on.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 12:50:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:Look at what the majority of the shooters are running in each class (at factory nationals). The Glocks rule production class, and the Para LDA is really coming on.


This can't be true because good shooters "know" Glocks are not reliable and are extremly inaccurate.

If you don't believe me just ask some of the morons over at Assault Web.

According to them this CAN'T BE TRUE
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 2:16:20 PM EDT
Well it may be that the guys at assault web (who would make such a statement) spend more time at their mall ninja and gun store commando meetings than they do at any real matches. From my experience Mall Ninjas and Gun store Commandos are pretty poor shots, but sure can talk a good game.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 4:53:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
Well it may be that the guys at assault web (who would make such a statement) spend more time at their mall ninja and gun store commando meetings than they do at any real matches. From my experience Mall Ninjas and Gun store Commandos are pretty poor shots, but sure can talk a good game.



The poster also comes here. His handle is John Wayne777.

He is the classic Mall Ninja type gun store commando type that has took all of the top handgun defensive schools.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 8:58:11 AM EDT
although it may be a fluke, I have seen a XD 9 crack down the slide from the frontsight post to the ejection port. I have never seen this with a Glock. Also to me the glock is more cumfortable to shoot. also the glock 19 is more comparable.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 1:41:11 PM EDT
XD-9 is the better pistol IMO. Many others including Chuck Taylor(just one name I'll drop,who by the way has a wonderful article on the Croation Sensation @ his website)agree as well. And my opinion is based on the fact that I OWN one and have plenty of rounds through the pipe to comment about it. Glocks are nice, but I can shoot the XD better(+ more accurately)at ANY distance compared to the G17. It is more accurate right out of the box. Which has also been proven(by Guns and Ammo I believe, big spread a while back G17 Vs HS2K. HS won comparison hands down.HS2K had much tighter groups with ALL ammo types.) There may be a lot more competition parts and holsters available for the G series pistols, but the XD's dont need much more than a fluff and buff, and a better finish(My personal biggest problem with it, and it is the only problem I see in it, And it can be fixed very well with a Park/teflon finish from MAC's guns for $50.) Minor points to consider I assure you. But I weighed it out carefully and the XD won out. I have no regrets buying this pistol nor recommending it over just about anything else on the market. I get big smiles when I let Glock owners actually SHOOT it! All glock guys know of this pistol, but very few have actually FIRED one. Most feel like they'll spontaneously combust like a member of Spinal Tap rather than even THINK there may be other combat tupperware out there thats not only good, but possibly BETTER in many ways! But dont take my/or any of our words for it. Just get to a range that rents them, and side by side them. Thats what I did. And the differences will be apparent before the end of the first mag. The XD-9 just outright ROCKS!Its my current carry gun,and I have no intentions of changing weapons now that I own/use one. It really just fits my hand great, and that just translates into better(more accurate)shooting.Try them out. I dont think you'll be disappointed.
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