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Posted: 9/9/2003 7:50:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 10:45:01 PM EDT
Old story. What did you expect them to say, really? "We screwed up with our change from Beretta to Glock?"

The jackass managers HAVE to make it appear they're making a MUCH better decision than they did before!
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 4:49:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 4:59:09 AM EDT by RugerCal480]
Bob,
"Old" story?? The date on the news release and testimony apparently was close to August 28, 2003. How much more "current" do you want the story? That conclusion(?)you advance comes no where near "following" from reading the report. I don't mind if it is expressed as an "opinion," AND STATED AS SUCH, but it certaily is neither logical, nor rational argument following from the report!! If you have other "evidence" suggesting your "opinion" is a conclusion that follows from the facts, PLEASE present it so we can all be enlightened! Listing an officer or two who doesn't like the Glock is not a "DepartmentAL" view, there are always those "on the line" who disagree with ANY departmental decision...again, based on their experience or opinion, WHICH does not mean it follows as a COCLUSION from rational argument or "the facts." Otherwise, implying the LAPD feels "they" made a "mistake" moving to the Glocks is VERY MISLEADING.
Ruger (Mike)
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:11:52 AM EDT
The Beretta gave him blisters during qualification? What an idiot.

Of all the pistols I'd had, I would put the Glock near the head of the list of "most uncomfortable gun to shoot". Right next to an unmodified 1911.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:15:24 AM EDT
My favorite quote from the article:

"The guns can take 9 mm, .40 caliber and .45 caliber ammunition."
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:23:57 AM EDT
Must be those multi-caliber neuroflytanium barrels they're putting on the new Glocks.

I HATE Glocks.

Never had a single one in my hand that felt right, not saying they're a bad gun. I just couldn't get past them never feeling comfortable in my hand.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:26:07 AM EDT
The Glock is a better pistol than the Beretta. Most people with a lot of experience with both pistols know this. The Glock is more reliable and more durable.

This being said it still does not mean that the Glock is really a better choice for the average cop.

The average cop needs a pistol with a manaul safety because some are poorly trained and know nothing about the pistol they carry.

A manaul safety has saved a few lives when the bad guy got their pistol and could not get it off safe.

Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:53:22 AM EDT
cornbread2,

I disagree that Glocks are more reliable than the Beretta. I've carried a Beretta at work daily since 1992. The gun has never malfunctioned or suffered a part breakage. On the other hand, I've seen Glocks malfunction on a regular basis (mostly 22s).

Just my experience.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:02:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 7:35:02 AM EDT by Energizer]

Originally Posted By RugerCal480:
Bob,
"Old" story?? The date on the news release and testimony apparently was close to August 28, 2003.



It is an old story, probably republished by SFGate.com and had updated interviews with their own or different reporters...

PS: the date of the article on the link posted was 8-27.

PPS: It appears this is THE SAME article that was posted a while back, just on another web site...
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 7:21:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 7:22:30 AM EDT by avengeusa]
I like Beretta, I have seen one with a high round count never jam at all, it would get a cleaning at 1000 rds, it has been sold to a good guy on the board, and as far as I know it is still very reliable and accurate. I like the Beretta's, Glock is ok too
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 7:29:52 AM EDT
If the Glock is supposedly better, then why is our military using Berettas?

(Beretta is probably not the lowest bidder, since Glocks seem to be cheaper.)
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 7:34:06 AM EDT
Is this true, or one of those 'made up" statistics?

From the article:
"About 70 percent of U.S. law enforcement agencies use Glocks, including the FBI and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration."


BTW: they never mention how many of those SAME agencies use other weapons... So if an LE agency uses at least ONE Glock (for whatever purpose), are they counted in this percentage???

I thought the Feds also carried Sigs, HKs, etc.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 7:48:42 AM EDT

I thought the Feds also carried Sigs, HKs, etc.

I talked to a supervising FBI agent at my daughter's birthday party awhile back (they're everywhere, you know). His current duty (supporting homeland security by deporting assholes in the U.S. on student visas who don't attend school) allows him to carry a Glock 22. However, he said if he were still on the bank robbery squad, he would carry a Sig or Beretta since there would be a good chance that he would have to use his weapon. That was his exact statement, so take it FWIW.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 7:50:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MAP:
cornbread2,

I disagree that Glocks are more reliable than the Beretta. I've carried a Beretta at work daily since 1992. The gun has never malfunctioned or suffered a part breakage. On the other hand, I've seen Glocks malfunction on a regular basis (mostly 22s).

Just my experience.

Mike



I agree. If a Beretta is properly maintained, then it is reliable as death. It's reliability legendary. I have never suffered a malfunction of any type with a 92. I have broken trigger springs and a firing pin once, but I bought that gun used and used hard. It is currently at Accurate Plating getting a new finish.

The Beretta is a big gun and people with smaller hands do have a problem with its wide grip. But if it fits your hand, (as it does mine), then you are in buisness.

I have taught new shooters to shoot and have been to numerous professional training classes, and invariably everyone I have ever seen has performed better on drills and accuracy with the Beretta or 1911 than the Glock pistols.

Times improve and accuracy gets better. Glocks are OK pistols, but just OK. They are harder to shoot well and their vaunted "ergonomics" translate into wicked slidebite for anyone with larger hands. Their triggers are horrid and the factory U and Dot sights are difficult to use with precision past 10 yards.

I have owned Glocks and carried and shot them extensively. I just never liked them.

I will add that the Glocks I owned never malfed in any way, but I have seen the .40 caliber ones break trigger pins and the like in training classes.

They aint my cup of tea. And they are no more reliable than a Beretta in good working order, so it is impossible to believe they are a "better" gun than the Beretta.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 8:01:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Energizer:
Is this true, or one of those 'made up" statistics?

From the article:
"About 70 percent of U.S. law enforcement agencies use Glocks, including the FBI and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration."


BTW: they never mention how many of those SAME agencies use other weapons... So if an LE agency uses at least ONE Glock (for whatever purpose), are they counted in this percentage???

I thought the Feds also carried Sigs, HKs, etc.



Lots of agencies do issue the Glock as a duty weapon, but other weapons are also authorized. The LAPD will probably still allow officers who wish to pack the Beretta and the S&W .45 ACP pistols.

The guys who shoot for a living (the SWAT team) carry 1911's. So what does that tell you? The FBI authorizes Glocks for carry, but the HRT carries 1911's. This trend is repeated over many departments.

Most pros I have seen who have the option carry SOG. (Something Other than Glock) Sigs, Berettas, 1911's HK USP's dominate. Glocks are just hard to shoot well thanks to bad sights and a worse trigger, and any agressive grip will get you slide-bit.

The average street cop is not likely to clean or shoot his weapon much, etc. The Glock's ease of repair and maintenence (it is real easy to completely take apart and put together) is a factor here. Not to mention that the Glock is usually a great deal cheaper than other pistols. (Sigs cost 150 dollars more usually...) All of this combines to make them the choice of far too many people.

But those on SRT and SWAT style teams usually pick something else when free to do so. They also go into whatever they face with a long-gun. (A MUCH better idea than a pistol...)

If you properly maintain a Beretta or Sig pistol, it will serve you reliably for a lifetime, and most pro shooters know this.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 8:28:37 AM EDT
They are doing the right thing in getting rid of a handgun with idiot designed slide mounted controls. Slide mounted controls do not belong on a pistol used for self defense.

I thought everyone knew that the US military picked the 92 to help Italy offset the licensing costs of Bell helicopters that they wanted to produce.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:04:07 AM EDT
I hate how the Glock feels in my hand. I have always hated it. But I carry a Glock every day. It is reliable, light, simple and quick to get into action. Nothing else is as good for CCW or LEOs IMHO.

In my experience both the 92 and Glock are reliable. The stock Beretta trigger is very heavy. The Glock trigger is no SIG or 1911, but it beats the Beretta. I love the Beretta grips, but maybe because of the rotten trigger I can not shoot it as well as a Glock.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:18:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 9:19:49 AM EDT by Green0]
I have experience with a police trade-in Glock 19 and several beretta M-9's.

I don't know what is different about the M9's but I took one onto the range and we fed it 3 types of hardball (Winchester white box, Fiocci and Wolf). I only ended up firing about 35rds. Because I had to hand load all the ammo. I would load a magazine insert it and press the slide release chambering a round then I fired and the slide would:

a come back and eject the round
b Jam trying to insert the second
C I'ld clear the jam pull the trigger firing and it would not fully unlock and the slide would only come 1/2 way back and the case would not eject (obviously)
D clear the jam pull the trigger firing the third round and it would stovepipe the empty.

The M9 is a terrible sidearm period it continued to fuck up with all three types of ammo. I recently talked to a medic who said that if deployed he would smuggle a Glock sidearm because his Beretta doesn't work reliably.

I took that beretta apart and the locking block was not broken ad all the parts were clean and in good shape. There was nothing wrong with the M9 except that it refused to work.


My experience with the Glock involves about 1000rds of 115grain ball and Corbon 145Gr + P hollowpoints.

NO jams just smooth feeding and good accuracy. (3-5inches offhand at 25yds for 10rds.)

My brother killed a wounded deer with it (Corbon HPs put it out like a light.)

I used to hate glocks but now I realize they are quality firearms and although I preffer 1911's the Glock is a good alternative if I can't pick the 1911.

Besides there is a device that snaps behind the trigger of Glocks and it works as a manual safety it costs about $5 and can be lanyarded to the trigger guard to prevent loss and can be used again and again.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:27:37 AM EDT
I'ld just like to know how the Army had really 5 choices:

Keep the 1911 (aging and becoming a armorers nightmare [making them work for a living])
Make more 1911's (SEEMS LOGICAL)
Buy Sig's
Buy Glocks
Buy Beretta's


AND MANAGED TO CHOOSE THE WORST POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE. Sig's and Glocks would have served fine. And Sig's prove that by being used by some special forces groups. Glocks are often seen carried as personal weapons by SF operators (Airforce PJ's). The 1911 is still in use by Delta and Force Recon. A beretta M9 is NOT a weapon of choice by operators.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:49:17 AM EDT
Green-0

If your weapon was a M9 then it was probably used and abused during it's military service.

CRC
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:57:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 9:59:44 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By Green0:
I have experience with a police trade-in Glock 19 and several beretta M-9's.

I don't know what is different about the M9's but I took one onto the range and we fed it 3 types of hardball (Winchester white box, Fiocci and Wolf). I only ended up firing about 35rds. Because I had to hand load all the ammo. I would load a magazine insert it and press the slide release chambering a round then I fired and the slide would:

a come back and eject the round
b Jam trying to insert the second
C I'ld clear the jam pull the trigger firing and it would not fully unlock and the slide would only come 1/2 way back and the case would not eject (obviously)
D clear the jam pull the trigger firing the third round and it would stovepipe the empty.

The M9 is a terrible sidearm period it continued to fuck up with all three types of ammo. I recently talked to a medic who said that if deployed he would smuggle a Glock sidearm because his Beretta doesn't work reliably.

I took that beretta apart and the locking block was not broken ad all the parts were clean and in good shape. There was nothing wrong with the M9 except that it refused to work.


My experience with the Glock involves about 1000rds of 115grain ball and Corbon 145Gr + P hollowpoints.

NO jams just smooth feeding and good accuracy. (3-5inches offhand at 25yds for 10rds.)

My brother killed a wounded deer with it (Corbon HPs put it out like a light.)

I used to hate glocks but now I realize they are quality firearms and although I preffer 1911's the Glock is a good alternative if I can't pick the 1911.

Besides there is a device that snaps behind the trigger of Glocks and it works as a manual safety it costs about $5 and can be lanyarded to the trigger guard to prevent loss and can be used again and again.



Then there was something badly wrong and broken with yor weapon, and it should have been fixed by a Beretta armorer.

You can't dismiss all Berettas because of one bad experience with one broken specimen. Especially when the Beretta has earned a good reputation with lots of other folks.

I own two Beretta 92 pistols and have put tens of thousands of rounds of all types through them, and in horribly muddy conditions to boot. They have both performed excellently in my hands. The only problem was spring and firing pin breakage...

Link Posted: 9/10/2003 10:16:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 10:25:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I don't think this is a valid criticism of Glocks, though as I have never heard anyone teach that if you have a misfire you should pull the trigger a couple of more times for good luck.



You must not watch a lot of TV .



I can't figure how a Beretta would give you blisters. I've shot mine hundreds and hundreds of times in a day, far more than any police officer would have to in qualification and never noticed anything like that. Sounds like BS.



I cannot believe this is one of their main reasons cus ONE person got blisters.... what a pansy.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 10:30:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
They are doing the right thing in getting rid of a handgun with idiot designed slide mounted controls. Slide mounted controls do not belong on a pistol used for self defense.



I don't know about you, but having shot the 92 and 96 in competition, I don't have a problem with sweeping the safety off with my right thumb while drawing from the holster.



I thought everyone knew that the US military picked the 92 to help Italy offset the licensing costs of Bell helicopters that they wanted to produce.



I have heard that, but I wouldn't say I "know" it to be true. Personally I feel the P226 would have been a better choice, but not by that much.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 10:53:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ken_mays:
I don't know about you, but having shot the 92 and 96 in competition, I don't have a problem with sweeping the safety off with my right thumb while drawing from the holster.



The problem is clearing a malfunction with a slide mounted safety. When you rack the slide in a hurry it is very easy to knock the safety on. For this reason and the fact that the 92 can be made to fire by pulling it out of a tight holster with the safety off the secret service turned down the 92. The 92 has the trigger bar on the outside of the frame. The trigger bar moves forward when the trigger is pulled.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 12:08:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Green0:
I'ld just like to know how the Army had really 5 choices:

Keep the 1911 (aging and becoming a armorers nightmare [making them work for a living])
Make more 1911's (SEEMS LOGICAL)
Buy Sig's
Buy Glocks
Buy Beretta's


AND MANAGED TO CHOOSE THE WORST POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE.


I don't think Glock was actually in the running due to the lack of a manual safety. During the three sets of trials the following pistols competed: Beretta, Colt, FN, HK, S&W, SIG, Steyr, Walther and Ruger. That is about everybody but Glock.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 12:29:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By imposter:

I don't think Glock was actually in the running due to the lack of a manual safety. During the three sets of trials the following pistols competed: Beretta, Colt, FN, HK, S&W, SIG, Steyr, Walther and Ruger. That is about everybody but Glock.



That is correct.

Also just because the military adopts a certain product does not mean it is the best.

I personaly know someone that used to be involved in the testing at Aberdeen Provings Grounds.

He did not test the Beretta handguns but they hepled test everything from rifles to boots and everything in between.

The very best product as proven in testing did not always win the contract.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 7:22:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 7:24:21 PM EDT by Marksman14]
Then the secret service must not know how to handle a handgun...

I have a 92fs. Pull on that bar as hard as you want. It wont let the hammer fall. No holster is tight enough to allow that to happen.

If you learn how to properly handle a gun wtih a slide mounted safety, the beretta is awesome.

I've put 1500+ through mine without cleaning. No problems, and it was raining and it fell in the mud, twice.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 10:00:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RugerCal480:
Bob,
"Old" story?? The date on the news release and testimony apparently was close to August 28, 2003. How much more "current" do you want the story?
This has been long in the planning stages. I first read of it several months ago. Perhaps I read about the testing?


That conclusion(?)you advance comes no where near "following" from reading the report.
Go back & read it again, please. I wrote "What did you expect them to say?" It's not like I quoted some LA official.



I don't mind if it is expressed as an "opinion,"
Dude, this is the INTERNET! EVERYTHING in the internet is opinion.


AND STATED AS SUCH, but it certaily is neither logical, nor rational argument following from the report!!
Shit, then don't read it then.


If you have other "evidence" suggesting your "opinion" is a conclusion that follows from the facts, PLEASE present it so we can all be enlightened!
Did I say it as written in stone? Do you honestly take this internet shit seriously? Get a grip, dude.



Otherwise, implying the LAPD feels "they" made a "mistake" moving to the Glocks is VERY MISLEADING.
Perhaps you might wish to read up on "sarcasm" in your spare time?


Link Posted: 9/10/2003 10:02:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cornbread2:
The Glock is a better pistol than the Beretta.





Link Posted: 9/11/2003 3:54:17 AM EDT
I know this much. I have a 92 with right at 7,000 rounds down range with this weapon. 124, 115, and some 147 gr. Gold dot, Golden saber, Hydra-shock, fmj, you name it. I have a gun show mage that I stepped on and fixed with a pair of plyers! This gun will digest anything!

Now the 96 is a different story, no luck there at all.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 5:06:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:

Originally Posted By ken_mays:
I don't know about you, but having shot the 92 and 96 in competition, I don't have a problem with sweeping the safety off with my right thumb while drawing from the holster.



The problem is clearing a malfunction with a slide mounted safety. When you rack the slide in a hurry it is very easy to knock the safety on. For this reason and the fact that the 92 can be made to fire by pulling it out of a tight holster with the safety off the secret service turned down the 92. The 92 has the trigger bar on the outside of the frame. The trigger bar moves forward when the trigger is pulled.



Firstly the G model fixes this imagined problem, as the worst that can happen is a de-cock.

Secondly, I have used the 92 under high stress situations and never once had a problem with jam clearance or accidentally engaging the safety. But then again all the jams were induced by me for training purposes. I never could get my 92 to do much jamming.

The only time it ever really jammed was when there was so much mud in the action that it drove out all of the sub-standard lube I was using. Racking the slide sounded like rubbing sandpaper together. Eventually the slide got stuck and I had to rack it to get the weapon back in action. I did this easily and with no accidental engagement of the safety.

Thirdly, has anyone ever successfully fired a Beretta 92 by pulling on the trigger bar? Anyone? No? Thought not. Anyone with enough 92 experience will laugh you into next week for even suggesting such a thing.

It may indeed be possible to do, but from my experience the only way I see it being possible is if you use pliars and a hammer to accomplish this feat. This is HARDLY going to happen when drawing from a holster.

I can understand the safety thing. But if the SS genuinely said the trigger bar was a problem, then they are morons.

I understand their move to the Sig pistols. The Sigs are more compact and lighter, which is a concern when you must discretely conceal them for many many many many many hours at a time. They are also available in .357 Sig from the factory, so the P229 makes sense.

There is also a common manual of arms. I believe the SS went right from revolvers to the Sig pistols, meaning that another Sig pistol will operate exactly the same and there is no re-training needed. In a job like theirs you need to be intimately familiar with your weapon. Doing so requires a lot of time spent with the weapon. I can work all of my carry guns without any conscious thought at all, and that is a good thing.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 6:35:03 AM EDT
<laughing>
Please, Mr. Custer ...er...Cole... I don't wanna go...er ...read....
Getta grip, dude...yeah, sometimes when I read postings here, and read answers...I think to myself...gawd...is this fer real???

The Internet is a lot of "opinions," fer sure.... like most media...whether newspapers, tv, radio....sorta like a giant "talk show" sometimes, if ya know what I mean? opinions...whether the NY Times, CBS,Fox,LA Times, Washington Post...you name it, most of it is "opinions" so...where do we go for the "facts"..."just the facts, ma'am" ala Friday on Thursday morning...

what I guess that we do is take the "opinions" and react via our own prejudices (not prejuduces in a pejorative sense...just "where we regularly come from"
sarcasm...gawd, I wood never bee sarcastic!! <grin>
major point: we all like our guns, 'specially if we bought them, and most will not ever admit to making a mistake...so if'n we bought 'em, they must be the good uns..er the best...er...berettas, or the glocks, or the Kimbers or the Springfeld Armory ones or the Wilsons, etc. kinda like, "man look what I got"
second major point...
if it's just the Internet...why does everyone get so stirred up when anyone questions what we say??? why does anyone care or respond to what another says?? 'prolly cause it is seen as a "personal attack" maybe though it might never be intended as such...(intentions are really hard to communicate in type without the emoticons, dude...but that is the way it is perceived... so...a solution...

can we just say, "I feel" it is "cold, instead of "It IS cold"?" naturally, no one can argue with how we "feel" about something, but EVERYONE will argue with a "statement of fact, about the way something is or is not"

be philosophical about it bro' <grin>
Ruger
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 6:40:52 AM EDT
Glock was also never in the running because they refused to allow the government to be able to source parts elsewhere and/or have other manufacturers build the guns should they decide there was enough of a need...a la WWII, etc.

The Beretta is a damn fine gun, and the Glock is also, but in a slightly different way. Most troops would never get the amount of training and range time needed to handle the Glocks safely under stress...certainly not at the time the Beretta was adopted.

LA is doing what has been done many times in many places...usually for political or ego reasons rather than because of any real problems.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 10:07:08 AM EDT
Just a note:
I never once saw a gun, other than a Glock, in Europe, worn by either of the two kinds of police, state or provincial ...not in Germany, Italy, France, Austria, Belgium, nor Switzerland, course in London, the bobbys only had "glock-like" nightsticks.<grin> Now, Beretta is an Italian-made gun, is it not? Here in the states, I don't know what the actual statistics are for PD's, but I would venture to guess that there are more Departments with Glocks, than Berettas...just-a-guess...<grin>

I have never had a Beretta; I do have a Glock....the kind that reportedly Ka-booms...22c in .40 S&W...but I wouldn't trade it...works just GREAT!! If there are problems with the Berettas or the Glocks, or any other kind that we have had, share them, ask others about their experiences, even what they might recommend; but...'tis kind of pointless, is it not, to try to convince anyone who thinks one is better than another, against their will.
Keep on truckin' guys and gals.
Ruger
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 9:36:27 PM EDT
I have a "Kaboom" Glock 22 also......

and it ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 5:25:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2003 5:31:26 PM EDT by freedom-fighter]
The Beretta 92 was tested by the Air Force and came out on top. The Army didn't believe the Air Force's result, so they ran their own tests and came to the same conclusion that both the Beretta 96 and SIG 226 were the best.

Funny how Glock fanatics don't comprehend that the Beretta was torture tested in all ways possible by the best military in the world. I have bought and sold many guns, but I always have a Beretta. I have a Glock 17 as well, but I don't trust the G22 or any other Glock. Glock's stock trigger is bad and the grip angle is not natural, causing you to point the gun down. This in turn gives you a little less muzzle flip. I like my USP better than my G17.

As for the new LAPD Chief. Looks like he's not a 9mm fan. If you will note, he's not pushing the Glock 17, but the Glock 22. Hate the round, idiot, not the gun.
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