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Posted: 9/8/2003 1:44:27 PM EDT
I've been practicing double taps with my USP45 since Spring, and I still can't get the two shot to group decently.
Practicing shooting at a target at 15 meters, the second shot is nearly always off paper!
Is there a trick that I'm missing in my practice sessions, or is it simply practice, practice, practice until the grouping's there?
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 2:01:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2003 2:02:09 PM EDT by Glock31]
Slow down. It's like anything else, start off slowly, fire 2 shots and hit your target with them, then speed up slowly until you get to whatever speed you're looking for.

Other than that, watch your front site and keep a firm grip. Shooting fast and missing isn't nearly as effective as taking that extra half second to aim.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 2:54:36 PM EDT
A lot of it is the grip. Use the thumbs forward modern isosceles grip. Also the USP with it's high bore axis has a lot more muzzle flip than a low bore axis 1911 or glock. You have to muscle the gun more, and wait a split second longer for the front sight to drop back on target.

With my Glock I can put double taps right on top of each other, or unload a whole 15-20 round mag and get a fist size group at 10 yards.


Modern isosceles grip used in IPSC/USPSA competition. It really helps control muzzle flip when rapid firing, but generally helps control felt recoil.


Get a good high grip on the gun. With your web of your hand all the way up. Hold your thumb away so you can place your support hand.

"Tuck and roll". Tuck your support hand under the trigger guard and roll it into your strong hand.

With your support hand get a good high grip with as much palm as possible on the grip.

A word about grip pressure. Your strong hand does not use very much pressure at all. I describe it as a soft handshake. Just enough pressure so you don't weird someone out with a limp wussy handshake. Not a manly firm handshake grip pressure. Your support hand is actually used to grip the gun. You can see in the pic I don't even need to use my strong hand to retain the gun. With your support hand, use a firm grip.

Lastly point both thumbs forward. Thumb of support hand goes on the frame; the strong hand thumb goes on the web of your support hand, or also on the frame.

When you shoot feet shoulder width apart, knees slightly bent, bent slightly at the waist, lean forward, gun held directly out in front of you in an isosceles stance/grip. The "modern" version has you with both elbows slightly bent. Bring the gun in a little, whatever feels comfortable. You don't need a crush grip, or to push pull with your hands (like in a weaver grip). Just imagine the gun floating in front of you, no stress to hold or point the gun. Focus on front sight, and squeeze.

For drills I recommend that you hold the gun one handed at the low ready, finger off the trigger. The go into your two handed modern isco grip while bringing the gun up and double tap. Work with a target at point blank range, slowly it out to 10-15 yards when you can keep everything no larger than fist sized groups.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 4:56:26 PM EDT
Double taps? Do you mean hammers or controlled pairs? Either way the above recomendations are excellent.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 8:32:19 PM EDT

Thanks, Yar and Glock! I sure appreciate the excellent advice.

Hoplophile, I mean a quick controlled pair.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 9:17:24 PM EDT
I've heard the terms hammers and double taps used interchangably
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 10:14:28 PM EDT
I've found that if I hold my muzzle right up against the target, my groups are excellent!
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 11:58:54 PM EDT
I've been shooting 1911 high-thumb with isometric tension (push with strong hand, pull back equally with weak hand) for 19 years. No emphasis on stance at all, since if you have a proper stance, you're probably not being shot at.

I just had an instructor last week try to teach me what YAR just showed us, and it felt VERY WEIRD. I've shot clean most times I've qualified. I shot an 88 this time around, using this grip. I must be doing something wrong, though I've asked several other instructors what. No one has been able to give me an answer.

BTW, I am a firearms instructor for a major security concern, and have done executive protection. This stuff just FEELS weird! Any suggestions?
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:46:50 AM EDT
Depends on what you mean by "double tap".

If by it you mean 2 shots fired with only 1 sight picture, then forget about doing it. This is a bad idea.

If you mean 2 AIMED shots fired in quick succession, then slow down and get your sights properly aligned. Also focus on good trigger control.

Most people try for speed before having the basics nailed. Get good sight alignment and trigger control down, and then you can build speed with them. Eventually the mechanics of shooting will become efortless.

Shoot good, not fast.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 5:28:43 AM EDT
"I've been practicing double taps with my USP45 "

I have a tac...that puppy has a lot of muzzle flip!
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 6:15:10 AM EDT
I think the best advice I can chime in with is what's already been mentioned. SLOW DOWN.

You need to start ANY physical motion you intend to perfect SLOWLY. When you can do it PERFECTLY at a SLOW pace, then you increase a little. Step by step.

Practice doesn't make perfect, PERFECT practice makes perfect.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 7:59:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kpel308:
I've been shooting 1911 high-thumb with isometric tension (push with strong hand, pull back equally with weak hand) for 19 years. No emphasis on stance at all, since if you have a proper stance, you're probably not being shot at.

I just had an instructor last week try to teach me what YAR just showed us, and it felt VERY WEIRD. I've shot clean most times I've qualified. I shot an 88 this time around, using this grip. I must be doing something wrong, though I've asked several other instructors what. No one has been able to give me an answer.

BTW, I am a firearms instructor for a major security concern, and have done executive protection. This stuff just FEELS weird! Any suggestions?



It does feel weird until you get used to it. I started shooting weaver and it took me a while to adjust.

First with my weaver stance I held the gun more to my strong side, with the modern isco the gun is pretty well centered to your body. You eyes have to relearn the new sight picture, It has helped me to shoot more with 2 eyes than using my dominant.

The thumbs forward thing also takes a lot of getting used to. Every time I drew my thumbs wanted to go to the thumbs down I used with weaver.

I learned the new grip with lots of dry fire practice. Starting from a one handed low ready, and going into the modern isco
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:44:43 AM EDT
In todays crazy legal world and using a 1911 .45 I would juct fire one round watch the guy get hit and if he doesn't drop fire again.

My bet is he drops with one 230grain hollowpoint to the chest.


I use basically the grip described above but overlap my right hand thumb with my left thumb.

Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:49:27 AM EDT
Well it depends on how you look at it. I rather be alive and in court than dead.

If I had to I probably would put several rounds in the BG, make sure he is dead, get my story together, and call my bad ass lawyer that I have pre selected.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 10:04:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2003 10:40:29 PM EDT by skullworks]

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
A lot of it is the grip...

Man, how did you take those pics?
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 10:34:08 AM EDT
Digital camera and a tripod
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 7:34:02 AM EDT
Now you're learning why the HK USP isn't very common in competition.

The high bore axis produces a good amount of muzzle flip, and the slide seems to take forever to cycle. Maybe that's just a perception, but it certainly seems to move lazier than the 1911's.

But if you concentrate on your front sight, not pulling the trigger till it's back on target, that should help quite a bit. It's better to shoot accurately slowly, and repeat this until you can do it quickly. If you try to emphasize speed first, it will be a lot harder to improve your accuracy.... especially if you're just trying to squeeze off two shots as fast as you can.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 8:11:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skullworks:

Originally Posted By Yar1182:

Man, how did you take those pics?


LOL -- I was wondering how many arms Yar1182 had!!
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 6:49:02 PM EDT
There was some talk of 3 double taps in 3 seconds on another thread and it seemed incredible to me...looks like I need practice and maybe even then it won't be feasable to pull it off with the USP.

I'd never even heard of double taps until I started reading this site. Before then, my idea of practicing combat pistolcraft was shooting cottontail rabbits on the run (I know, I know, I'm a dumb redneck).
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 7:15:16 PM EDT
# double taps on three targets in 3 seconds is very resonable. Guys at our matches can do the El Presidente drill in 4 seconds flat with all alpha hits.

Spin 180 degrees, draw, fire one round each at 3 seperate targets, do a mag change, and repeat one round on 3 seperate targets.

Really something to watch.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 7:28:55 PM EDT
Unless they are wearing body armor they are going down with one round from a .45. If they are wearing body armor (it's a head shot or you just brought the wrong gun to the fight).


Overlapping thumbs decreases group size by about 30%.

Can I shoot high thumb? yes. Is it accurate? Not really. Does it help me control muzzle rise? No.

I've heard people argue that your thumbs are pointing toward the target. . . That works great if you grew up pointing with your thumbs. I point with my index finger (and when I'm shooting the logical choice seems to be pointing with the muzzle.)
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 7:34:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2003 7:37:23 PM EDT by Lumpy196]

Originally Posted By Green0:
Unless they are wearing body armor they are going down with one round from a .45.



Can I get that in writing somewhere?

Anyone else want to test that theory when its YOUR life on the line.

I never cared to be a participant in a one shot stop contest.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 7:55:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Green0:
Unless they are wearing body armor they are going down with one round from a .45. If they are wearing body armor (it's a head shot or you just brought the wrong gun to the fight).

Overlapping thumbs decreases group size by about 30%.


quote]

Suuurrreee...
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 10:10:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ken_mays:
But if you concentrate on your front sight, not pulling the trigger till it's back on target, that should help quite a bit.

IOW, fire controlled pairs at a slow pace, pick up the pace as you are able, then try firing hammers.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 10:39:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
Digital camera and a tripod

Not a third arm then. Phew...
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 8:41:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By llanero:
Before then, my idea of practicing combat pistolcraft was shooting cottontail rabbits on the run (I know, I know, I'm a dumb redneck).




HAHAHA!!
thats one of my favorite things to do!
Link Posted: 9/13/2003 5:05:39 PM EDT
Very good Yar, teach them the way of the IPSC'er

Double Tap = one sight picture then two shots...15 yards is WAY too far to do that (unless your really damn good).

A controleld pair is another matter -- two aimed shots just rather quickly.

May I suggest you try "Bill Drills" to help you get used to tracking your front sight back onto the target. Set up IPSC, IDPA or whatever target (an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper works fine) at 10 yards... from the draw shoot 6 shots as fast as you can AND stay on the A zone of the IPSC (or the center 6 inches of the sheet of paper) with all shots....any shots get away and you failed.

A GOOD time is 2 seconds, but it will take you about a hundred thousand rounds to get to that

Kpel308 -- suggest you do not push/pull with the thumbs forward grip...just squeeze the snot out of the gun with your left hand and everything will work fine.

Cheers.

Link Posted: 9/14/2003 2:28:05 AM EDT
Controlled pairs is a more reasonable goal with a .45acp at 15 meters than true double-taps.


"Bang Bang" is a controlled pair. "BaBANG" is a double tap.
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 10:38:44 PM EDT
"babang" double taps are only done by IPSCers with underloaded rounds.. lol other than that practice practice practice.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 6:15:27 AM EDT
Without a compensator, lighter loads, I doubt I will ever reach the BaBang kind of double taps.

Super tight holds reduce some of the muzzle flip, but there is still too much trigger slop in my glocks to make a true double tap.

Of course, I am still about 90,000 rounds under the minimum required to make a BaBang...

TRG
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 7:21:22 AM EDT
Nonsense, Glocks are great for double taps. Glocks are very popular for pistol competitions for this reason.

You just need to learn to shoot from the reset. After the first shot let the trigger out just far enought for it to reset, then fire again.

To practice and learn the reset do this...

Make sure gun is empty. Dryfire the gun, but hold the trigger back. With trigger held back rack the slide 3/4". Slowly let the trigger out until you hear it click. This is the reset point. Now dryfire again, and repeat.

Keep this up and you'll learn where that reset is.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 8:36:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoCompromise:
"babang" double taps are only done by IPSCers with underloaded rounds..



I dont shoot IPSC, nor do I consider RA9T to be underloaded. But I agree with you on the practise aspect.

I figure 100 rounds a week with your primary carry gun is the minimum to maintain your skills, preferably after a few hundred hours of formal,training.

I do not recommend IPSC or other gun games for anyone who carries a gun professionaly.. The "Skills" needed to win those games (like cheating cover) get you killed in the real world.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 8:59:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 9:00:03 PM EDT by Yar1182]
So what is your idea of practice? Slow fire bullseye at a traditional shooting range?

While shooting sports like USPSA/IPSC, or IDPA are meant to be real world training, a lot of the skills transfer over.

Yes many times a stage will call for shooting from behind a baricade set up in such a manner that simulates shooting from behind cover. Typically you get a lot of practice shooting strong hand/weak hand only, shooting on the move, form various position such as sitting, prone, kneeling, etc. Of course there is a lot of rapid fire shooting. Regardless it's a lot more fun than traditional training. It is not meant to replace training, but can be used to supliment it.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 12:44:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Yar1182:
So what is your idea of practice? Slow fire bullseye at a traditional shooting range?



Only for a warm up. Followed by lots of double taps, failure drills, and multiple target drills. Always from the holster, often in low light and usually with moving targets. We even drive a car inside the range sometimes. Beats the heck out of using a cardboard cutout as simulated cover.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 2:02:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2003 2:17:37 PM EDT by Yar1182]
Actually you would be impressed by some of the props we use at matches. We also have dark rooms which require flashlight work. while some of the baricades are simple plywood with ports cut out, our range has several building facades. There are also cars, bridges, stairs, and raised platforms.

Many of the targets are swingers, drop turning disappearing targets, or move along zip lines.

We also get malfuntion drills, but it's not simulated and it's under the stress of a timer. Strange stuff happens in competition just like in real life.

Though USPSA/IPSC is more my game, here is a pic from a IDPA match.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 6:55:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2003 6:56:10 PM EDT by HiCapMag]
IPSC is not "tactical" training nor is it intended to be. HOWEVER, it is tough to beat the stress of the clock for making you generally screw up in every way immaginable. Probably the best stress shooting you can get short of having someone shoot at you ...which I don't recommend

The "skills" one acquires by shooting IPSC are just like the skills you acquire by practicing in any other way, but the practice is more "practical" (thus the name) because it is a lot harder to focus on that front sight and squeeze the trigger when you are hauling ass to beat your buddy's time....in other words you perfect your gun handling, not your slicing of the tactical pie by shooting IPSC.

I have, unfourtunately, heard way too many people poopoo IPSC, and IDPA for that matter, as "going to get you killed" -- I find such folks typically dont shoot so good and are afraid to step up to the line and show what they got --absolutely no flame intended here fellas so dont take it that way -- just go try a match and then come tell us what you think.

Edited to add: nice props Yar .. I'm coming to shoot with you guys
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 7:34:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2003 7:35:27 PM EDT by skullworks]

Originally Posted By HiCapMag:
I have, unfourtunately, heard way too many people poopoo IPSC, and IDPA for that matter, as "going to get you killed" -- I find such folks typically dont shoot so good and are afraid to step up to the line and show what they got --absolutely no flame intended here fellas so dont take it that way -- just go try a match and then come tell us what you think.


I think that the precision aspect of IPSC & IDPA is impressive, but the thing that one has to remember is (and it has already been mentioned by others, and you) that IPSC doesn't stress safety, as in the competitor not sticking his/her face out of the wrong window and getting it shot off or slicing the pie.

The emphasis in practical shooting is on speed and accuracy (which are not neccessarily bad things) but there is no emphasis what so ever on the times when you actually do need to slow the f@ck down.

I was taught in the service that there are three forms of cover - cover, movement, and fire. Practical shooting stresses the hell out of movement and fire, but treats cover as an obstruction rather than a form of protection.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 7:48:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2003 7:50:01 PM EDT by Hoplophile]

Originally Posted By HiCapMag:
IPSC is not "tactical" training nor is it intended to be.



[sigh] Whatever happened to the good ole days when the 'P' in 'IPSC' stood for PRACTICAL

Edited to add that [Diceman voice]Col. Cooper is rollin' over in his grave and the friggin' guy isn't even dead yet.[/Diceman voice]
Link Posted: 9/19/2003 1:20:34 PM EDT
I own four autoloaders and the handgun I double-tap best with is....my S&W 357 mag. By "best" I mean most accurately. The double action trigger pull on the S&W is just SO short and sweet that it beats my Beretta, Sig, HiPower and SA 1911A1 hands down.
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