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Posted: 7/12/2003 2:01:19 PM EDT

Well, graduation from the academy is a long 6 months away, but you know I'm already shopping for my back-up/hot weather CCW gun( no CCW in Missouri for the average Joe)

I think I've narrowed it down to either a small .357/.38 spc. revolver or a Kel-tec .32.

Now, the gun will have to be carried on the ankle while I'm on duty. As for summer time CCW, it will be IWB most likely.

The Kel-tec wins as far as weight and slimness, but revolvers always work. This gun will be for work, so reliablility matters. Also, I have to qualify with the weapon annualy. I've read that the chrome plated Kel-tecs are more reliable..? Also, what about titanium revolvers?


Also, any other recommendations in the same, small package would be considered.

-Gracias

Link Posted: 7/12/2003 2:23:56 PM EDT
If you are going to try a .32, try the Beretta 3032.

I used one as a back-up gun on duty. I had my wife take a small nylon hoslter and sew a velcro to it. I the attached it to the front of the vest.

By doing that all I had to do is grab the left of the shirt edge and pull then right hand draw.

The 3032 is a great light weight gun, accurate and reliable.....
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 3:35:52 PM EDT

Aren't those quite a bit heavier and thicker than a Kel-tec?

Did it leave a bulge under your shirt?

Link Posted: 7/13/2003 7:48:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2003 7:51:38 AM EDT by Dog1]
Not not at all, in fact I think that the Kel-tec is thicker than the 3032....I'm big guy, 6'1" 250, and I wear my uniform shirts cut a tad larger for the body armor, so the 3032 did not produce a bulge.

I wore it just left of my heart, under my left chest. For me it was a straight pull with my right hand across my chest....

I liked the 3032 be cause is all steel and still light enough for a summer carry. It is pretty slim-line, I couldn't tell it was there...neither could anyone else..

I never, over 300 rounds fired, had a mis-feed, failure to eject, or a any other problems...all in all a excellent back-up/summer carry...

If you get the 3032, I can look in my gear box and see if I can find that holster..if I can find it you can have it...
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 8:27:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2003 8:29:03 AM EDT by Lumpy196]
Ankle guns get coated in A LOT of dust. The best ankle gun is a 5-shot snub. Autos in calibers smaller than 9mm usually lack the slide velocity to overcome the level of crud that builds up in a gun carried in an ankle holster. Yes, you have to keep the gun clean, but several hours can put quite a build up on it.

My backup is the S&W642 Airweight. Its light enough to be easily carried, yet doesnt make shooting painful like the titanium revolvers do.
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 9:16:58 AM EDT

Thanks, keep the suggestions coming.
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 9:50:36 AM EDT

Are the revolvers to thick to conceal IWB during the summer?

I like the looks of the SW340PD? How do you all like "scandium" guns?

12 oz. sounds nice, just a hair heavier than the Kel-tec.
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 6:05:21 PM EDT
I carry the 340PD as my main CCW. It fits well in my front pocket and seems as well concealed as IWB. Even with the extra thickness of the revolver cylinder I've never even had anyone question the bulge. Some people claim the .357 is too tough to control in these light weights. IMO its manageable with practice and the right grips.
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 7:48:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2003 7:48:44 PM EDT by Ghostface]
I wear a Glock 33 on my ankle and it does conceal well. My thinking was if I have a short barreled
BUG, I want it to be as powerful as possible. I think a semiauto will be the best choice because you don't have to worry about trying to hide a bulky cylinder.
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 8:24:13 PM EDT
This is my next purchase. KEL-TEC P-3AT PISTOL and it’s only one ounce more loaded than the P-32.

www.kel-tec.com/p3at_pistol.htm
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 8:31:25 PM EDT
My Back up is the S&W 442 .38Spec.

BTW the Renegade is the best ankle holster there is. Better than the name brand leather ones that cost 3 times as much.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 1:14:06 AM EDT
You might want to check the regs where you think you will be working to see if they specify a minimum caliber for backup. Many depts would not authorize a 32.

The ankle holster has to be the worst/slowest possible place to carry a second gun.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 1:17:51 AM EDT
The KelTec is much thinner and lighter than the 32 Tomcat. I wanted a tomcat untill I saw how large it was compared to the Beretta 21 which I had, the KelTec 32 is thinner than the Beretta 21 so there is no comparison to the 32.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 9:17:32 AM EDT
I can understand needing a second gun for a back up when on duty but when off duty why go smaller? Why not just carry your duty gun as a CCW while on your own time?

Link Posted: 7/14/2003 9:36:22 AM EDT
Go with the Kel-Tec .380 and forget about the P32
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 3:09:00 AM EDT
I can also recommand the Smith J-frames or the Beretta. I've had two Model 60s and a 442 that always worked. One of the M60 was a Kentucky State Police traded in (KSP symbol on sideplate) that they used to issued as a backup and carried in the ankle rigs. Had a Tomcat for a while that was also 100% realible.

De Oppresso Liber
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 8:08:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/15/2003 8:10:58 PM EDT by ReaperVelle]
Coming from someone that is new to CCW, but have been around guns my whole life....wouldnt you want to have your "backup gun" in the same caliber as your carry gun, and if the possibility exists with the ability to use the same Mags so you have interchangability and ammo on hand for the backup if the primary craps out? Instead of your normal 5" primary, have your backup be a 3" vs of the same gun (assuming a semi).

Like I said Im new to CCW, not an LEO, but my rational thinking if I was LEO would be to have same caliber, with ability to use same mags for both if needed.

My 2 pennies....

ReaperVelle
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 8:23:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
You might want to check the regs where you think you will be working to see if they specify a minimum caliber for backup. Many depts would not authorize a 32.

The ankle holster has to be the worst/slowest possible place to carry a second gun.



TRUE !!!

Your second gun should be in your left front pants pocket {if your right handed} in a specially lined pocket or pocket holster.

The ankle holster is a great place for a third gun. It give easy access to a weapon when seat belted into a cruiser. Your holstered duty weapon and pocket gun will be impossible to access from this position.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 9:19:40 AM EDT
This pistol was built with the idea of it being a secondary weapon for Law enforcement or for CCW and is the lightest .380 ever made.

The firing mechanism is double action only. The magazine has a 6 round capacity. The KEL-TEC P-3AT is the lightest .380 Auto pistol ever made. Thanks to its locking dynamics and superior ergonometry, perceived recoil and practical accuracy are comparable to much larger guns.

The P-3AT is mainly intended for plainclothes police officers as a secondary weapon, or for concealed carry by licensed citizens.



www.kel-tec.com/p3at_pistol.htm

It’s only 1 ounce heaver than a P32 fully loaded.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 10:37:13 AM EDT
I don't like the Kel-Tech pistols as their quality seems to be shotty and most of the ones I have ever seen fired and fired myself are unreliable.

For a backup gun you can't beat a small .38 revolver. I carry a Smith 442 loaded with 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoints loaded to +P pressures.

It makes a potent package that is absolutely reliable. It conceals easily in the front pocket of my Levi's and serves as a primary gun when I can't carry anything bigger.

For a semi-auto the small Kahrs seem to be the best of the breed. The NAA Guardian is also a good pistol, but get a Kahr if you can.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 9:50:18 AM EDT
I know of quite a few LEO who carry the SW 340PD as a backup in an ankle holster. The .357 kicks like a mule, but then again you want the extra KD power since if you are using it you have already either expended you ammo on you main weapon or have lost control of it in some manner. The internal Hammer and lightweight make it an ideal backup. I personally do not know many LEO who carry another weapon in their pocket. If that is what you are looking for though you can get a Hasbro Keltec witht he pocket clip. but a .32 would not be ideal in most situations that would warrant the use of a backup weapon. It of couse comes down to what you are comfortable with. (An inside the pants holster is efficient too) I personally use on on occasion. depends on the situation though)
First start out by picking the practical points,
1.) What caliber do I feel is sufficient for my usage. (barring any regulations by your dept.if any)
2.) How do I feel comfortable wearing it, i.e. do I want a semi or revolver (Revolver is much more reliable and simple since you dont have to worry about a mind freeze with a safety in a panic situation)
3.) What gun is the most comfortable to YOU
4.) Price Range (if any)
5.) pick a weapon with a solid reputation
6.) practice shooting it from a holstered position (i.e. Real world useage)

Have fun practicing.

That is my Opinion of couse, and I am sure some will add or flame some of it.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 10:12:15 AM EDT
The 340PD is the ONLY gun I would trust to carry in a smartcarry rig. Nothing could set of that trigger unless you were attacked by a determined trouser trout.

Did I say trouser trout? IMG! Time to get back to work.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 7:13:14 AM EDT

We can carry anyting as long as it is at least a .22 and from a "reputable manufacturer".

I couldn't carry even a kel-tec in my pants pocket. Our uniforms are very traditional and formal, i.e. no BDU pants. We have the form fitting dress pants.

The small pistol will be used for CCW only in summer months, and for back-up in uniform.

Our firearms insrrucor prefers the Kahr and Kel-tec depending on his outfit.

Link Posted: 7/19/2003 7:31:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2003 7:38:32 AM EDT by RugerCal480]
AZ-Larry,
I was interested in your comment on the smartcarry rig. Is that just a personal preference or do you know of anyone who has set off a gun in the smartcarry rig? and if so, under what circumstances. I know a few who have shot themselves in the leg with cowboy action type guns in cowboy holsters, who have cocked the single actions, when holstering and/or retrieving the gun. I use the smart carry with both the PT-111 Taurus, 9mm, a DA gun and with a safety...and never a problem; and also with the Kimber Ultra Carry II, .45, a 1911 type action, so the safety and the grip safety must both be used to discharge the gun. Both are 3.15 inch barrels. Neither can be discharged simply hitting the rig against anything or retrieving it by the handle. Under NO circumstances should you EVER retrieve ANY gun from ANY holster with your finger on the trigger. If you cannot do that, you should not be carrying ANY gun CONCEALED OR OPEN!! That's why we practice and practice and practice, so we DON'T do dumb things, like fingering the trigger BEFORE the gun is pointed at a LEGITIMATE target, (and you don't point it at ANYONE unless your life is in imminent danger and you intend to fire it, a LEO may be permitted to do that, but NOT most CCW authorized citizens....am I wrong about that??) and can CONSISTENTLY retrieve the weapon SAFELY!
RugerCal480 (Mike)
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 7:37:26 AM EDT

What do you all think of the Kahr Arms PM9?

Reliable?

Quite a bit more expensive than the Kel-tecs.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 7:43:27 AM EDT
I have not used the Kahr PM9 personally, nor am I familiar with it, so I am not really able to offer any kind of informed opinion. Perhaps someone who knows about it more than I do, can offer a more relevant opinion.
RugerCal480 (Mike)
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 7:52:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2003 11:40:29 AM EDT by az_larry]

Originally Posted By RugerCal480:
AZ-Larry,
I was interested in your comment on the smartcarry rig. Is that just a personal preference or do you know of anyone who has set off a gun in the smartcarry rig? and if so, under what circumstances. I know a few who have shot themselves in the leg with cowboy action type guns in cowboy holsters, who have cocked the single actions, when holstering and/or retrieving the gun. I use the smart carry with both the PT-111 Taurus, 9mm, a DA gun and with a safety...and never a problem; and also with the Kimber Ultra Carry II, .45, a 1911 type action, so the safety and the grip safety must both be used to discharge the gun. Both are 3.15 inch barrels. Neither can be discharged simply hitting the rig against anything or retrieving it by the handle. Under NO circumstances should you EVER retrieve ANY gun from ANY holster with your finger on the trigger. If you cannot do that, you should not be carrying ANY gun CONCEALED OR OPEN!! That's why we practice and practice and practice, so we DON'T do dumb things, like fingering the trigger BEFORE the gun is pointed at a LEGITIMATE target, (and you don't point it at ANYONE unless your life is in imminent danger and you intend to fire it, a LEO may be permitted to do that, but NOT most CCW authorized citizens....am I wrong about that??) and can CONSISTENTLY retrieve the weapon SAFELY!
RugerCal480 (Mike)



No Ruger, I haven't heard of any problems with the smart carry. The main reason I'm comfortable with the SW, is it only ways 12 ounces and it's very confortble to carry in one. But no way would I carry a glock in there. Maybe I'm paranoid, but it's just too close to my boys!
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 8:26:02 AM EDT
Didnt somone on this forum post pics of their Kahr Arms PM9 that exploded in their hand a while back ?
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 11:13:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 1:14:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
You Mean This?



I can't get the pics on that page to work...?

MP906 I don't think much of the Kel-Tecs myself. They look like toys and shoot toy bullets. I would go snubby. They can be carried on your ankle for duty and then in the summer for CCW in a pocket.
Link Posted: 7/19/2003 2:55:24 PM EDT

I'll probably get the Kel-Tec just because I know I will carry it even in hot weather.

Now I need to decide between the Kahr and the Smith & Wesson.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 1:53:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MP906:

What do you all think of the Kahr Arms PM9?

Reliable?

Quite a bit more expensive than the Kel-tecs.



I have carried a Kahr MK9 as my on-duty backup (and warm-weather off-duty gun) for about five years. All of the Kahrs I have used have been great little guns. My wife has a K-9 for her CCW gun. The only problem I have with them is that for a backup gun, they are a little heavy by the end of the day. In uniform I carry either in a vest-strap holster or in a DeSantis ankle holster.

I have shot one PM9 that a friend of mine bought for his CCW gun. I really like the weight of the gun, and I much prefer +P+ 9mm to .38 Spl. or anything lighter. If you're recoil sensitive, the PM9 does recoil noticeably more than the stainless MK9.

I have seen some unfavorable comments in the Kahr forum about the quality control on the PM9, but my friend's gun has worked perfectly right out of the box. Not so much as one malfunction even when brand new. YMMV, but I really like the Kahrs. If I need a backup gun, I want all the power I can get, & the 9 works for me....
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 2:21:30 PM EDT
I found the alloy J frame to be comfortable for ankle carry. It also conceals well in a belly band. Of course you want a hammerless model.

I carried a Taurus titanium for a while, which was real nice. Loaded with frangible ammo it was a real lightweight, almost forgot it was there. The only problem with the taurus is the stock springs SUCK. But the price is right. It might be worth having if you get some aftermarket springs for it.

The kel tec might be useful as a backup backup, carried in a pocket, but overall it seems like a .38 would be a lot nicer to have around than a .32, all other things being equal.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 2:53:03 PM EDT
Have you considered the Springfield Compact LW? Alloy frame, 4" barrel. Very nice CCW. Just my two cents. I own one and love it. Hardly even know it's there.
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 12:53:50 AM EDT
make sure to check out the taurus pt111 titanium. it's a really light, 9mm, semi auto that has the most comfortable grip of any small frame gun i've ever held. comes with trijicon night sights too.. shoots nice. and from what i've read you really can't compare sub380 cal ammo with 9mm ballistics.
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 9:07:30 AM EDT
I carry a KT.32. I prefer front pocket carry however so weight and bulk are major drawbacks.I had a PM9 Kahr, it was a nice gun but a little bulky for front pocket (for me).It would be fine for IWB or ankle carry.
I will get the new .380 KT when they are available.
I think you will find that "slim is in" when it comes to IWB and probably ankle carry too, though I have never carried that way.
As a civilian ccw,I consider the little KT a last resort stick it in the face type deal if I can't get away. The small caliber is a strong deterrent to any "hero" notions.
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