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Posted: 6/6/2003 11:03:24 PM EDT
Ok recently a friend of mine, he is the Chief of Police in a town located near mine. Well we were just talking and it came around to ammunition loads of the department. Well he told me about the old Black Talons made bvy winchester and how they were discontinued because of political and social views. But he also said that they just took the Black Talon bullet design and put it on a new casing and slapped on a new name for it. Has anyone heard this rumor or report? I think he said that it was the Winchester SXT or something like that.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 11:08:48 PM EDT
you know what the SXT stands for?

Same eXact Thing


Check gunbroker. Type in black talon and you will get a load of auctions for Winchester Ranger and SXT ammo.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 11:09:48 PM EDT
The Black Talons were pulled from the market due to political pressure, and made LE only. Not long after that they designed and introduced the SXT round, and made them available to all. The SXT is actually a better design, and expands more reliably. Despite the hype, Black Talons werent all that great.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 12:14:11 AM EDT
The original Black Talon load was not all that effective by modern standards. It's bullet often clogged with fabric from passing through clothing and would not expand. For the most part, it was a hyped round.

Next came the SXT which was basically a redesigned Black Talon without the sharp "talon" edge petals and the black Lubalox coating. This is the load currently marketed to civilians by Winchester. From what I have seen of it, I am not too impressed.

The latest and greatest spin-off of the original design is the Winchester Ranger. Initial Ranger SXT bullets, as they were called at the time, also suffered a few problems with expanding after penetrating heavier clothing. But today's Ranger loads (the new versions have product numbers that start with RA, such as RA9T) have been refined to near perfection. They expand well in bare gel, gel covered with 4 layers of denim, from full size pistols, from compact pistols, etc. They have also had an excellent record in real life shootings as well. IMHO, they are the best handgun bullet on the market at this time for personal defense. The Speer Gold Dot and in some calibers, the Remington Golden Sabers are it's closest competition.

The Ranger bullets are not illegal for civilians to own and use, but since Winchester only markets them to LEO's, they are hard to find. But as Lumpy said, do some searching and you can find them.

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 4:52:00 AM EDT
The Black Talons were the "COP KILLER" bullets on which the news media went bananas. Everytime there was an article on guns they talked about "cop killer" bullets and showed a picture of a Black Talon. Naturally everyone with a gun wanted some and they are still sold at a premium. They DO look kind of cool.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 4:09:53 PM EDT
Unbeknownst to me, a day before they were yanked off the shelves, I purchased some quantity in 9MM and .45ACP.
Always stored under near optimum conditions and I still had one dud...a dead primer a few years ago on a .45Talon.
I even found some .40S&W Talons in my stash, I didn't even know they made.
The horror stories I remember came from surgeons ripping their gloves open during operations to remove bullets from a victim.
The media jumped all over the Talon and helped kill it.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 4:43:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
The Black Talons were pulled from the market due to political pressure, and made LE only. Not long after that they designed and introduced the SXT round, and made them available to all. The SXT is actually a better design, and expands more reliably. Despite the hype, Black Talons werent all that great.



Ditto on that.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 12:37:35 AM EDT
FYI:this may be a bit of a fine point but the other aspect of the black talons was the punch it packed.. the 'replacement' for the black talon was supposedly the ranger SXT +P+. I think i still have the old copy of guns and ammo that i read that in from about 10 yrs ago but i'm pretty sure that's what it read.. the other piece of bad spin attached to the BT's had to do with the color of it matching the color of it's intended targets. aka rascist overtones.. the bullet is now copper colored.

my 3 cents
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 9:41:22 PM EDT
here is the run down

Black Talon-Ok round but expensive

Normal SXT- not that good winchester didn't put much effort in this round

Ranger SXT- Basically upgraded Black talon good round

Ranger T or RA45T the box still says SXT now this round kicks ass and is very impressive we are talking .80-.85" expansion in .45!!!
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 9:20:49 PM EDT
To start off with, I'm upset that Winchester only markets them to LEOs.

Secondly, what would the prosecuting attorney say about one of us "civilians" using these in a justifiable shooting? I'm thinking that they would probably try to use it to prove that the shooting was excessive force with intent to kill. Which brings me to my third point:

Since LEOs only use their guns for defence, wouldn't ANY bullet that's designed for cops be a GREAT bullet for "civilians" to use for self defence? If so, why won't Winchester sell them to the public? Would this argument be likely to hold up in court?
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 4:39:46 AM EDT
Court? If it was "justifiable" and you didn't use "illegal" ammo, you shouldn't even be in court.

A civil lawsuit by the “VICTIM’S” survivors would be an entirely different story.

Are you a LEO? NO? What were you doing with LEO-only ammo?
Oh, it is more effective; that means more lethal?
So your intent was to kill or maim?
When you loaded that gun you were thinking about what ammo would be best to kill someone? You had a gun loaded with super-lethal ammunition and you were looking for some one to shoot with it.
BLAH BLAH BLAH …………………
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 8:12:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Oslow:
Court? If it was "justifiable" and you didn't use "illegal" ammo, you shouldn't even be in court.

A civil lawsuit by the “VICTIM’S” survivors would be an entirely different story.

Are you a LEO? NO? What were you doing with LEO-only ammo?
Oh, it is more effective; that means more lethal?
So your intent was to kill or maim?
When you loaded that gun you were thinking about what ammo would be best to kill someone? You had a gun loaded with super-lethal ammunition and you were looking for some one to shoot with it.
BLAH BLAH BLAH …………………



That's what I'm talking about. Since LEOs ammo is only intended to stop, and NOT intended to main and kill, wouldn't that be what we ALL should use? AFTER ALL, we don't want to accidently kill people, just stop them...
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 8:43:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2003 8:45:49 AM EDT by Oslow]

Originally Posted By Johnphin:

That's what I'm talking about. Since LEOs ammo is only intended to stop, and NOT intended to main and kill, wouldn't that be what we ALL should use? AFTER ALL, we don't want to accidently kill people, just stop them...



You lost me there; you are joking now, right?

Anyway, if you used Black Talons you would most likely just give the lawyers more "ammo".
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 8:57:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Oslow:

Originally Posted By Johnphin:

That's what I'm talking about. Since LEOs ammo is only intended to stop, and NOT intended to main and kill, wouldn't that be what we ALL should use? AFTER ALL, we don't want to accidently kill people, just stop them...



You lost me there; you are joking now, right?

Anyway, if you used Black Talons you would most likely just give the lawyers more "ammo".



Yes, but WHY would that be giving them more ammo? Cops only use their guns for self defence. Right? Cops don't shoot to kill, they shoot to stop. Right? Therefor, it stands to reason, any gun/ammo combination that is good for a cop, should be good for us too. After all, unless we're murderers, we use our guns for the same reasons, and in the same ways, that cops do. Why wouldn't having a configuration identical to a cop be the "safest" solution?
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 9:05:16 AM EDT
So, I should take all my BT's to the range and shoot them at paper in case I should actually have to shoot an intruder.

I wouldn't want to kill the intruder, just stop him.

Stop, kill, same thing in my book.



As I've said a million times before, when is the law abiding American public going to stand up and say enough is enough.

In a perfect world.............

[attorney for dead perp's relatives]Was your intention to kill my client's son?[/attorney for dead perp's relatives]

[defendant]Yes, he was in my home at three in the morning with a gun pointed at my chest, he said that he would shoot if I did not get on the floor, so fearing for my and my family's lives I shot him. I meant to kill him. I did not want to worry about him hurting my family as I went downstairs to search the rest of my home.[/defendant]

[judge]Good job son![/judge]
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 9:24:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bvmjethead:


In a perfect world.............

[attorney for dead perp's relatives]Was your intention to kill my client's son?[/attorney for dead perp's relatives]

[defendant]Yes, he was in my home at three in the morning with a gun pointed at my chest, he said that he would shoot if I did not get on the floor, so fearing for my and my family's lives I shot him. I meant to kill him. I did not want to worry about him hurting my family as I went downstairs to search the rest of my home.[/defendant]

[judge]Good job son![/judge]




Where is this perfect world of which you speak?
For I would like to live there too.

Link Posted: 6/11/2003 9:35:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dredd308:
Where is this perfect world of which you speak?
For I would like to live there too.



If I had any more pull than just one man can have, it would be EVERYWHERE in the world, but at the very least, here in the States.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 10:41:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2003 11:00:15 AM EDT by BugsBunny]
Chuck Taylor recommends Ranger SXT 9mm 127 gr. +P+ & .45 ACP SXT 230 gr. +P to his students.

"When Ranger Talon expands, its copper jacket peels back to form six sharp claws. These claws protrude outward just slightly beyond the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder."

From:

www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm#Black-Talon

Also {2nd article down}:

www.firearmstactical.com/briefs12.htm

Link Posted: 6/12/2003 12:34:08 AM EDT
I choose Black Talons and thier knives of death over any other round. Sure lots of rounds expand well but only True Black Talons have the knives of death.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 5:52:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 6:23:37 PM EDT
Why is it that the Black Talons and Ranger series of cartridges available only to LE?
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 9:55:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2003 9:56:55 AM EDT by MOLOT]
The original black talons are more collector items now than anything else. I have seen them go for around $50 a box.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 11:14:09 PM EDT
Black Talons are available to no one, the knives of death are gone for ever.

Ranger is just thier LE brand of hollow point ammo.

Basically Winchester chose a politically incorrect name for thier handgun ammo marketing it to the self defense shooter. Press at the time jumped the bandwagon till some congress critters threatened Winchester with some loss of government contracts. Winchester voluntarily pulled the product from sale before legislation banning them could be enacted or they lost any contracts. Basically they caved to pressure.

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