Posted: 4/27/2007 9:00:14 AM EDT
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I am going to buy a .45 but I am conflicted about which one to get HK USP or Sig p/220. Any suggesstions or comments to persuade me one way or the other would be appreciated. Thanks |
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USP .45 Probably the most accurate production .45 out there- I have yet to see anything more mechanically accurate. VERY VERY forgiving when it comes to maintenence...or lack there of Glock like reliability- you can beat the snot out of a USP and it will keep on working. Dirty, dry whatever. It works. Runs bone dry- the USP will function just fine if you dont cover it in oil. Tough finish that isn't prone to rusting...at all Ability to keep pistol condition 1, cocked and locked. If you dont like that, no worries, you can carry it any other way you can possibly think of. Match trigger available that will give a very very smooth DA pull, and a very crisp SA pull, though the stock SA pull is quite good. Much shorter trigger reset, and more crisp SA pull Very easy to suppress (if you decide to do so later) 12 round magazine capacity EXCELLENT QUALITY CONTROL- all manufacturers put out a lemon here and there, but HK seems to have the fewest problems with that. Very very soft recoil- it is one of the most pleasant .45's to shoot lots of rounds through. DOWNSIDES- magazines are expensive, and the mag springs arent the best in the world, but if you shop around you can find them at a reasonable price, and mag replacement springs are cheap :-) Other than that, if it fits your hands, its one of the finest .45's out there. |
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Unfortunately, you've chosen two very good handguns so it's hard to pit one against the other. It might just come down to your preference, so your should head out to a local range and see if you can rent both. For the sake of discussion, I'll rate the P220. Pros: It's accurate and reliable, a design that has been around for many years and has been proven in use by the FBI and police forces all around the country. Will eat any kind of ammo you feed it, I've never had a FTF(eed) or FTE after several thousand rounds of various brands of ammo. Easy to field strip for cleaning. Thin profile a little more comfortable for CCW. Available in many different configurations (this might also be a con). Good customer service. Cons: Limited magazine capacity - 7 or 8 round mags. |
They are both nice pistols and extremely accurate and reliable. If you plan on CCW then the 220 is probably a better choice, it's not as bulky as a USP and is easier to conceal. Usp has a higher mag capacity and may be a little lighter. I prefer the 220 just for the reasons I said, as for mag capacity you can still carry 8+1 which is plenty cause it's a 45 not a 9mm . If it's going to be a range gun then just go and compare or shoot the 2 and see what you like better, I beleive it's a win win situation.
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| I have a Sig 220; my older brother has a USP Tactical he bought used/like new from someone here on AR15. Im better accuracy wise with my 220 than either of us are with his USP. His USP has had minor problems like the slide not locking back on an empty mag, the slide locking back early/halfway through a mag, and not functioning properly with CCI Blazer and Wolf (especialy Wolf). I like the 220. I like a decent 1911 even more. I put 250 rds a month of Wolf thru my Springfield GI, and have for 4 years without a malfunction. To each his own; good luck in your decision. |
Thanks for sharing. I used wolf and CCI brass on low end of ammunitions. Never had problem with my USPs and USP taciticals. It is really rare to find a USP tactical doing that. 
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Sig no question. I would opt for the steel frame over thier alloy frames for the .45 caliber. The model I had was just as tight as any higher end 1911 pistol.  The Only USP I've ever cared for were the tactical models for cans, but practically all USPs are bigger than they need to be. In my opinion. |
New upcoming HK45: hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58376&highlight=hk45 
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i was fondling one of those this weekend at a local sig show... they are really nice... i was torn between that and the Sig GSR revolution in a CCO configuration (4.25" barrel with 7 round capacity)... both of them were awesome and had a special show pricing of close to dealer cost... if only my state income tax refund would have been here... |
My Sig 226 had the WORST SA pull I've ever felt on any gun period. Great DA pull, mushy as hell SA pull. Throw in a Match trigger, and the USP SA pull is one of the best on the market. I never said the standard USP pull is the most crisp out there, but it is certainly more crisp than my 226 was, or any other Sig I've shot. Non-match HK's I've owned to back up this statement....USP 9F. USP .40F USP 9c. P2000 V3 How many HK's have you owned to be able to compare? |
I don't own any... Well I used to own a P7 PSP My friend loves all things HK. He has a .40, and .45 USP fullsize. He also has a 9mm version of the USP tactical (I don't know what it is called). They are all very accurate and reliable. The triggers aren't bad but they never seemed to break very crisp. It was more like in SA there was never a crisp breaking point but like a couple mm of pull. Just my experience but I have shot his guns a lot. The same thing seems to be commonly reported of USPs in handgun forums from what I have read/seen. I'm not saying they are crap or anything, this was just not what they were known for as a strong point IMHO. My P226 and P239 had about the nicest non modified SA trigger I have tried or owned in a DA/SA. The double action sucked so I put in some Wolff springs to change that. They seemed to break much crisper in my experience. I did have a p229 that was crap in this department compared to my other sigs. I think their may just be alot of variance between guns especially from guns made during different years. I'm sure this holds true for HK as well. That all being said I don't own a single centerfire pistol now besides my 1911's. I keep buying other single action only guns thinking I will like them the same but nothing comes close for me so they get sold. |
Out the box a Sig has it all over HK as far as trigger pull is concerned, I know because I owned both. I can't speak for the match trigger just the standard USP trigger, if it were the case to change triggers then just send your Sig back to the factory for an action job and it will be even better than the factory trigger, which IMO is the best DA/SA factory trigger out there. |
I'll give ya the DA pull...maybe I had a bad Sig and have shot bad Sigs, but good god was that SA pull just a pile of mush with a long reset. DA in HK's sucks. But...wtf do I care, I've never carried one with the hammer down and I never will. Had I been able to try the SA pull before I ordered my Sig, I'd have never even wasted my time. My beretta, P01, Glock, and HK's all felt alot better in the SA pull compared to my old 226. I suppose its completely subjective and all a matter of what you learned to shoot on, but I know exactly when my HK's are going to break. They have about a mm of takeup, then they reach their breaking point, and anything past that, they break. My Sig trigger had about twice as much take up, then it got heavier, and I had to pull it quite far before it would break, and it felt mushy the entire way. Oh well, who knows. |
I honestly think you just may have had a dud. I have owned many Sigs over the years from the older europeon style guns to the newer ones and they all had good crisp SA triggers, some had good DA triggers as well but not all of them. I also had a HK USP that was KD date coded without the internal lock and it was a very good trigger compared to the AB date coated one I had. The newer ones have alot of creep in SA and the DA is just heavy and really rough, at least on the ones I have seen. I also heard this from other HK owners as well. Other than that they are great guns that do go bang everytime you pull the trigger, that I do know
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Just ignore marksman14 He is a rabid HK nut with an agenda of proving to everyone how much better HKs are than other guns. Back a while ago his main argument for bad mouthing the trigger on CZ-75s was how terrible the double action pull was on his Dad's CZ P-01, but in this thread, he claims that doesnt matter to him on his USPs. I am not a fan of modern HK pistols (mild understatement) so we tend to tangle a lot. anyway... back to the weekly sig vs HK bullshit fest... |
WHY WOULD I CARE ABOUT A GUNS DA TRIGGER WHEN I DON'T USE IT. I CARRY ALL MY USP'S CONDITION 1. THATS WHY I SOLD MY P2000, BECAUSE I HATED THE DA PULL. The CZP01 REQUIRES you to use the DA pull in order to safely carry it. The USP does not. Variant 9 is a wonderful thing. For the record, I hate all DA triggers. I don't personally own ANY guns that have a DA/SA decocker system. My old man owns a P01 and a Beretta 92fs. I grew up shooting the 92fs, and spent alot of trigger time on the P01 before I started buying my own pistols, and shooting them exclusively. The USP DA pull is pretty damn lousy. Sig, Beretta, and even CZ probably have a better DA pull, but please explain to me why that should be an issue for me when I never use the HK DA pull? Also, if you payed attention, you'd know that I hated the CZ SA pull because it elicted trigger slap, and was uncomfortable to shoot for long range sessions. This problem has been fixed, but it still has a VERY long reset, and nothing can, or will change that. Overall, I prefer the SA pull of a USP to that of a SA pull on a DA SA CZ trigger group- this is because of the trigger slap issue, and the long reset. The way the breaking point felt was very similar between the two, but overall, my preference is for HK. Overall, their DA SA triggers suck compared to their SA only models- Their SA only models can be fine tuned to something great, something I learned from you and then got a chance to try on my own, after inquiring about it with some of my buddies around here who shoot CZ's. If I could convince the old man to ditch the P01 for a SA only CZ model, I'd probably shoot the thing alot more. I'd purchase a CZ SAO model because they are great guns, but for all practical purposes, it wouldn't make sense to own a CZ75 when I like my USP9F just fine. If you're going to try and call me out, atleast get your facts straight. I have no problem sharing with people my firearm experiences, especially ones that led me to almost exclusively adopt HK's, Glocks and 1911's. If someone asks why, I voice my OPINION. If someone is ignorant enough to beleive that my opinion is universal, thats their problem, not mine. You have shared your experiences with me, and although our opinions differ, I have learned alot from you and respect your opinions even though I prefer a different system. Thanks to you, I learned how great a CZ SAO trigger could be, and have a new, more positive outlook on the system in general. I may have gotten a dud 226, its entirely possible- maybe someone put in a lighter spring and made it more mushy than it would have been in stock form. The entire thing sucked, so I wouldn't be suprised, but I have yet to feel a Sig SA trigger that really did anything for me. Its also entirely possible that since I am used to HK, Glock and 1911 triggers (which are all very different), that nothing else will ever "feel" good to me. Sig very well may be included in that. |
To further expand on this, I have noticed that the older European Sigs seem to be a little more forving than the newer US made ones. I have one buddy in WI who has a 226 that has been beat to shit. He's part of the same group that tested a tac point by chucking their AR 40 feet into the air, breaking a MIAD grip and a buffer tube off. His Sig RUNS. Wet, dry, dirty, whatever, that thing won't stop. I know they are out there, and I know most owners love their Sigs. Theres a reason you guys are so quick to defend your preferred system. I'd really give them a nod if they successfully come out with a SAO lineup. I hope they do, as DA/SA triggers compared to SAO triggers generally suck. HK DA triggers really do suck. They are heavy and long, and don't feel good at all. Sig blows em out of the water on this one. I had an AB date code USP that for some reason had a much mushier trigger than my AF dated one- my P2000 SA trigger was equally as good, and it too was an AE date code. It seems as if VERY early USP triggers were pretty good. Right in the middle after they started putting on those trigger locks, they started getting crappy, but as of late they seem to be much more crisp in SA. I really don't know. Good news is, since I started shooting Glocks, almost ANY SA trigger pull is workable  but bottom line is, I will never purchase another pistol that isn't striker fired, or condition 1 ready.
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