Posted: 3/28/2006 5:22:21 PM EDT
| Just as stated above. Any thoughts on the subject? I think that maybe if it don't go bang the first time why waste the time with a second try. I think that it should just be natural to just rack the slide for a fresh round. What do you guy's think??? |
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Well, I have ran across rounds that FTF and go off the second time I pulled the trigger. So second strike is useful. Though, on the other hand, if you pull the trigger several times and decide that round isn't going to fire, you just wasted time when you could have just racked. Should it be the deciding factor when choosing a weapon? Nah...When I think of the features I want on a pistol, second strike is towards the bottom of the list. |
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Some years ago a police agency did a test to determine whether the second strike was useful. What they found was, that no matter how much training people got, it was almost impossible NOT to just try to pull the trigger again, even on guns the officers had trained extensively with that did NOT HAVE a second strike capability. In short, whether it's a second strike capable gun or not, the natural instinct under stress is to pull the trigger again, and virtually no amount of training can over come it. |
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Back in the 90's there was some low cost imported 9mm ammo with the hardest primers that ever came on pistol ammo(exagerating). I was finishing up college and funds were low. At $3 bucks a box of 50 the price could not be beat for plinking ammo. Second strike capability came in handy then. |
A friend of mine had some Egyption subgun ammo that had extremely hard primers. Personally, I don't look at second strike capabilities when choosing a pistol. |
But for self defence I buy the good stuff that shouldgo off the first time if not there more then likely is something really wrong with the round. |
What if?  You've been watching too many movies. 
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| What is that ammo you found on the Nato or UN dead troops was not the caliber you needed?! Should we get rid of our .45s since the UN uses 9mm is 9mm really better then? Would you take the gold out of the teeth of the dead UN, Nato soldiers and would you drink the water from there cantine if you were thirsty and it had floties in it? |
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I was in a new "mega-store" here in Mesa. A salesman was trying to sell a woman a Sig, because he said it had second strike capability. He went on to tell her it "could save her life." Never having that problem myself, and being a Glock owner, I thought it somewhat disalusioing(sp) that he would do that. The lady was interested in a Glock. I stepped "into her conversation" and suggested a .small all steel 38 revolver as she had never shot before. Learning 
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Written like a true cherry. some of our boys are facing tougher challenges than what you typed.  So maybe I have, but I would not expect an armchair comando to understand.  By the way, Who said 9MM is better than 45acp? 
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Same here, if my gun failed to fire, my first assumption was that there wasn't a round in the chamber and I'd rack the gun. I've seen any number of people not quite seat the magazine fully, and the gun has failed to pick up a round. Done it myself. |
LOL I am no comando armchair or other. I am more involved with fighter jets. So are you saying you have taken out the Gold teeth and drank floties out of a dead mans canteen? Is 9mm better?   {just stitrring the pot a little}.
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Well, yes and no. A double action revolver allows you to pull the trigger again without having to clear the weapon. However, if you had a failure to fire due to an ammo problem, you won't actually get a second strike on that round until you have pulled the trigger as many times as you have holes in the cylinder. |
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FWIW... I think the instinctive <click> "Oh shit," <Rack> BANG! is the best way to train. If I had a 2nd strike I might be tempted to "Click! Click! Click" in a panic. I'd rather know that's not an option (to decide between squeezing again or clearing) and just train with clearing only. It's just simpler |
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FWIW I read a study that said 80% of rounds that don't fire on the first strike end up firing on the second strike. So that makes 20% chance of not actually firing the round with a second strike capability. I think the real issue is that when you are in the heat of the battle, and you are squeezing that trigger as fast as your brain is letting you, by the time you notice that you didn't get a bang on that pull you are already into the next pull if not a 3rd pull on the same round. In the same sense if you gave someone 200 rounds of ammo and told them to shoot it as fast as possible, but snuck a dummy round in there somewhere. How much do you want to bet the person tries striking the round a second time because they didn't react in time to the dud round. |
I agree with you, most guys (myself included) would do a tap-rack-bang in the case of any failure to fire. If it's in my gun and doesn't go bang the first time, I don't think I want it in my gun anymore . If you're using good ammo and the striker/hammer and firing pin (and all the springs that go along with it) are working properly, this shouldn't be a problem. If any exposure to water, no matter how limited, makes your ammo not function corrrectly, it's probably because the ammo wasn't properly sealed. Pistol ammo typically has soft primers, so it doesn't generally take much force to set them off when struck by the firing pin. You would likely get some failures if you were shooting reloads/handloads if rifle primers were used by mistake. |
It's likely, because on a revolver, the cylinder automatically rotates when the trigger is pulled. In that sense, it makes sense, but not for pistols because you're just trying to fire the same round again and would probably do better to rack the slide and fire the next round. |
Actually, if SHTF, you would likely be using a rifle. Dead troops from a foreign army would have been carrying rifles. If you actually choose to use a pistol over a rifle in a real SHTF situation, you're foolish and probably aren't going to survive very long. Pistols in war are for when your rifle is broken/out of ammo. |
I see most people jurk like as if the round went off then get a confused look on their face then look at the gun like as if it is out of rounds or broke. I think that if you shoot alot and are firing as fast as you can you still know when a round didn't fire and the first thing you do is stop to access the problem. I have seen videos of Rob lathem (not sure if spelled right) has been speed shooting and had to clear a bad round from his gun and he didn't look as if he tried to pull the triger twice. Sure he mostly shoots a 1911 but he just taps and racks and from what I can see it takes a fraction of a second. |
Rob Leatham has better training than most people, then. It really is a question of training. If you train to do tap-rack-bang anytime you have a failure, you will always do tap-rack-bang and it will be in your muscle memory. Pulling the trigger twice makes more sense for revolvers because the trigger is what rotates the cylinder so you're striking on a fresh round. |
| I agree that Rob has more training I'm just saying that maybe we all should just train to tap and rack because if it works for him and speed is key why not just train that way instead of hoping the round will go off with the second strike? I think I would feel better knowing there is a new round in the chamber then not knowing if the round will fire on the second try. Also don't you think that if you hear that click instead of a bang that your attention will be on the gun vs your sites and the target. Why not use that attention getter to tap and rack and get back in the fight. |
True story, as all these popular selling guns dont have restrike capability- Glock S&W M&P Springfield XD All 1911's Not a single military assualt rifle, shotgun, machinegun, or sniper rifle that I know of has restrike capability. How important could it really be? |
+1 Good points. Never hear the millitary bitchen about the second strike option. |
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Maybe for handguns, but definitely not for anything else. The military does require DA pistols, and it follows that if a pistol is DA, it's capable of a second strike. |
Pistols = aliens Rifles = UN Troops Shotguns =zombies
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What about a pistol and a shotgun? 
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Grr damn  , LOL
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I don’t consider it essential, but I prefer it. I can only recall once where I’ve actually used the capability (other than simply messing around with old ammo or reloads or such). I was firing a LEO qual course that included a particular 2 round drill. I fired the first round successfully, but the second time I pulled the trigger nothing happened. I was sure my handgun had functioned properly – so I ignored my training and pulled the trigger again, this time firing the round. The ammo was commercial 9MM FMJ (probably Winchester). While a tap-rack is certainly a better way to go, it’s at least remotely possible that it might not a viable solution (maybe your weak hand is unavailable, or maybe you’ve absolutely not got the time). I like having the option. |
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I have an HK USP .45C, and I hadn't cleaned it, I wanted to see how many rounds it can go till' I NEED to clean. I was at about 1,200 and it was fine. Popped in a new mag, BAM BAM click click click.. click? Rack the slide. BAM BAM.. click.. click.. rack, click click.. After I cleaned it, it preformed perfect. But, one thing is for sure.. If it ever happens to me, I'd rack the slide on the first click. And, clean it between 500rds or so. 
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