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Posted: 3/15/2006 12:39:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2006 12:57:28 PM EDT by BSheppard]
I got to handle one of these little .22LR and .17 HMR revolvers today and they seem like a great little novelty. The .17 HMR was only $150.00. What say you? Someone have one? How do they shoot? Hold up to carry?
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 1:45:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 1:47:34 PM EDT by ED_P]
A buddy of mine has the .22LR.

They are a neat little gun, and obviously about as pocketable as a gun gets.

It did have alot of jump due to it's small size, eventhough it's only a 22LR, it jumped in our hands and took a little skin off of both the webs of our hands due to a sharp edge when we shot it.

Due to the snap, I wouldn't call it a fun shooter, but I've seen models with a more substantial grip that I think might be easier to shoot.



Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:27:17 PM EDT
Here's what I posted only minutes ago in another thread:

Originally Posted By TeachXD:
+1 on the revolver for reliability, but I was thinking more along the lines of a NAA Mini. I picked up a magnum framed convertible (also came with the lr cylinder) the other day and am enjoying the heck out of it. The Magnum framed version allows for a more secure grip, but you can plink accurately out to about 10 yards with .22lr ammo all day long for just a few bucks. It's also a great conversation piece at the range. Sure the .45 guys may scoff at the diminuitive size, but let one of them shoot it and see how big their grin is.

As for reliability, you'll get the occasional dud from any rimfire ammo from any gun, but instead of having to rack the slide of a semi-auto when you're being attacked by a rabid skunk out on the trail, all you got to do is recock the hammer and let the lead fly at the foul feline.

These little revolvers just ooze with quality; no pot metal here, brother. Just nicely finished stainless steel. There's also lots of variations to suit any fancy. If your main goal is a nice plinker, go with the Mini-Master or the Black Widow. If you want a pocket BUG that's impossible to spot, and that could put a hurtin' on a BG in a last ditch survival effort, or the aforementioned rabid skunk out on the trail, go with the mini-mag. Don't know when I would recommend the plain .22lr version or the .22 short, but maybe there's someone out there that could find one of these tiny guns useful. I find the magnum framed mini in a KC Custom Gunleather pocket holster not only invisible, but pretty comforting when loaded with Winchester Super X hollow point magnums and paired with my XD-9 Subcompact.

My .02.hr

I love my mini! I forgot to add that it's got a real nice heft, but it's not heavy by any means.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 6:35:03 PM EDT
I've got one; good quality little gun.

I bought the .22mag version with the folding plastic clip that doubles as a grip when unfolded. Accuracy is surprising out to about 7-10 yards. Beyond that & it's more luck than skill, IMO.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 4:51:24 AM EDT
I love my NAA mini in .22Mag (1-5/8" barrel) w/ spare .22lr cylinder. Great for pocket or concealed carry.

IMHO, a pocket revolver is more reliable than any pocket semi-auto.

However, I understand the NAA mini's in .17 rimfire had (and/or have) issues with keyholing and case extraction.
www.naaminis.com/sandy060105.html
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 4:52:31 PM EDT
I've got teh Black Widow in .17 HMR

It's much easier to shoot with the bigger handle, and has a better stripping mechanism. I love to shoot mine, despite the muzzle flip.

http://www.naaminis.com/pix/naabw17s.jpg
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 5:46:41 PM EDT
Get the Black widow- better grip and better sights.

The .17 caliber versions have had reports of case setback issues so stick with the .22Mag/LR/Short versions. The .17 dosen't make much sense in a handgun anyhow.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 12:04:31 PM EDT
I have the 1 5/8 inch barrel .22mag. I dremeled off my front sight down to about 1/16 of an inch then painted it flourescent oragne. The factory front sight makes it shoot way low, so I modified it.

It is fairly accurate too, I suprise people how well I can hit with it (7-12) yards. I use the federal 50grain hp in it. Longer, heavier bullet hoping it will "tumble" when it penetrates the hide of a BG.

I have shot CCI 40gr HP and Federal 50gr HP into water (NEITHER EXPANDED) at all. fyi
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:41:08 PM EDT
I did some informal testing. Results here-www.thehighroad.org./showthread.php?t=123515&highlight=black+widow
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 6:10:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Guyver1:
I've got teh Black Widow in .17 HMR

It's much easier to shoot with the bigger handle, and has a better stripping mechanism. I love to shoot mine, despite the muzzle flip.

www.naaminis.com/pix/naabw17s.jpg



+1 on the Black Widow, very good gun and nice in .22 LR and .22 Mag. My uncle carries one. Never tried the .17 HMR.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 12:19:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rangie:
I did some informal testing. Results here-www.thehighroad.org./showthread.php?t=123515&highlight=black+widow



This is great stuff thanks!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 8:15:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rangie:
I did some informal testing. Results here-www.thehighroad.org./showthread.php?t=123515&highlight=black+widow



Thanks for the info, like I said previously I like the heavier bullet with deeper penetration, but from what you said the other stuff made a wicked wound so????

I'll just shoot them in the face or neck for time being....
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 9:26:28 AM EDT
Have had a NAA Mini in 22LR for a dozen years now. Thing disappears in a watch pocket or tucked up inside a watch cap. There are larger grips avaible but at the cost of concealment. YOU have to choose that criteria for yourself. Top quality in such a small pistol. By the way I've named mine "Always" because its small enough to always be with me.

CD
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:28:20 AM EDT
Had a .22 lr version a few years ago.
Well made, but it did jump quite a bit.
Now, my constant companion is a .22 mag, with a short barrel.
The larger handle makes it much easier to shoot.

If you ever need the customer service, NAA is one of the best.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 2:19:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:
Have had a NAA Mini in 22LR for a dozen years now. Thing disappears in a watch pocket or tucked up inside a watch cap. There are larger grips avaible but at the cost of concealment. YOU have to choose that criteria for yourself. Top quality in such a small pistol. By the way I've named mine "Always" because its small enough to always be with me.CD




Please, not when you skinnny dip? NO!!
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:20:52 PM EDT
I have the 22 magnum with the 1 5/8 barrel. I can't hit a darn thing with hollow points, but I keep it loaded with CCI shotshells. The lethality of the shotshells is questionable at best, but I would imagine these "miniature shotgun shells" are effective for stopping a would-be attacker when fired at the neck or face. I may be able to hit my intended target better with a little more practice, but the shotshells make aiming an unnecessary task all together.

The pin that holds the wheel into the gun was defective in my (NIB) mini. After 1 phone call the company sent me a brand new one free of cost, and no questions asked. No problems with the revolver since. Makes a good pocket gun.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 7:46:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:05:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Shot shells are for snakes and tweedy birds, have fun in court explaining why you felt the need to blind a person who thretened you. Sound like you vindictivly injured someone rather than defend yourself.



More than that, it's not going to offer anything in terms of stopping ability. The snakeshot rounds simply don't have the required penetration. Ideally, you'd want a NAA in .22 Mag loaded with FMJ. Not JHP or LHP/LRN because the penetration of these common types of .22 bullet is lacking. You need all the power and penetration you can get with such a caliber, attempting to rely on expansion in this case simply isn't realistic.

Even with snakeshot, you still have to aim. Consider a 12-gauge shotgun, for example, with a cylinder choke. When fired across a good-sized room, the spread is about the same size as a large pizza. The Box Of Truth (Old Painless) has a pretty good article on that. Most defensive confrontations take place at extreme close ranges, like within 7 yards or less, so therefore your shot groups will be even tighter. This is with standard 9-pellet 00 Buck.

Consider now that snakeshot uses smaller and fewer pellets, therefore the grouping is going to be extremely tight (even more so than a 12-gauge), which means careful aiming is necessary no matter what you use. Getting a kill by "just getting close" only happens with explosive weapons, like rockets, missles and bombs, because they have a blast/fragmentation radius. Furthermore, you wouldn't want a weapon with extreme spread anyways because of the risk of hitting other people and objects unintentionally. It would be far too destructive and/or quite a waste if only a few of your pellets actually hit the target and the rest hit everything else around that target.

I have chambered multiple BB's in my pellet gun, for instance, to see what would happen. Not much spread at all, and results with .22 (and .45) snakeshot I've seen online square with what I was getting with my pellet gun. You don't get much spread and it's not very accurate. In fact, rifling completely throws off the shot pattern. Instead of getting a nice, centered, even pattern, you get an extremely tight pattern that is thrown off to one side (the side in which the rifling twist is in, like left-hand twist/right-hand twist), making any such round effective/accurate only at close ranges.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 8:05:22 AM EDT
I've been kicking over getting one in Magnum myself, as a "last resort/ultra deep concealment" gun. I guy I work with carries his with the handle that unfolds and has a pocket clip, and unless you know what to look for, it looks like any old pocket knife.

Probably makes a good "dammit gun", but I'd still rather have a .45.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:55:10 PM EDT
After reading how much you all liked yours, I bought one.



This is my NAA with a .50 Beo round for size comparison. They really are high quality firearms.

Link Posted: 3/22/2006 1:46:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Shot shells are for snakes and tweedy birds, have fun in court explaining why you felt the need to blind a person who thretened you. Sound like you vindictivly injured someone rather than defend yourself.



More than that, it's not going to offer anything in terms of stopping ability. The snakeshot rounds simply don't have the required penetration. Ideally, you'd want a NAA in .22 Mag loaded with FMJ. Not JHP or LHP/LRN because the penetration of these common types of .22 bullet is lacking. You need all the power and penetration you can get with such a caliber, attempting to rely on expansion in this case simply isn't realistic.

Even with snakeshot, you still have to aim. Consider a 12-gauge shotgun, for example, with a cylinder choke. When fired across a good-sized room, the spread is about the same size as a large pizza. The Box Of Truth (Old Painless) has a pretty good article on that. Most defensive confrontations take place at extreme close ranges, like within 7 yards or less, so therefore your shot groups will be even tighter. This is with standard 9-pellet 00 Buck.

Consider now that snakeshot uses smaller and fewer pellets, therefore the grouping is going to be extremely tight (even more so than a 12-gauge), which means careful aiming is necessary no matter what you use. Getting a kill by "just getting close" only happens with explosive weapons, like rockets, missles and bombs, because they have a blast/fragmentation radius. Furthermore, you wouldn't want a weapon with extreme spread anyways because of the risk of hitting other people and objects unintentionally. It would be far too destructive and/or quite a waste if only a few of your pellets actually hit the target and the rest hit everything else around that target.

I have chambered multiple BB's in my pellet gun, for instance, to see what would happen. Not much spread at all, and results with .22 (and .45) snakeshot I've seen online square with what I was getting with my pellet gun. You don't get much spread and it's not very accurate. In fact, rifling completely throws off the shot pattern. Instead of getting a nice, centered, even pattern, you get an extremely tight pattern that is thrown off to one side (the side in which the rifling twist is in, like left-hand twist/right-hand twist), making any such round effective/accurate only at close ranges.



I couldn't agree more that shotshell rounds for a 22 WMR are poorly suited for anything other than rat shot. None of what you posted about the pattern makes any sense to me though. One shot from my 22 wmr at 7 yards peppers and covers the entire target, and takes no aiming. I don't know for a fact, but I believe these shotshells to conatin several more projectiles than a conventional shotgun shell. YMMV




Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Shot shells are for snakes and tweedy birds, have fun in court explaining why you felt the need to blind a person who thretened you. Sound like you vindictivly injured someone rather than defend yourself.



You have a valid point here. I have considered this, but I still keep my mini loaded with shotshells because I can't hit a damn thing with it otherwise. I've also heard arguments about lawyers trying to sell a jury that you seek to kill people when you load your weapon with hollow points (ie why not load the weapon with a less lethal round). It seems that either way, a prosecuting attorney has you by the balls. And I believe either way your fate depends on the quality and insightfulness of your defense attorney.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:21:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ISED8U:

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Shot shells are for snakes and tweedy birds, have fun in court explaining why you felt the need to blind a person who thretened you. Sound like you vindictivly injured someone rather than defend yourself.



More than that, it's not going to offer anything in terms of stopping ability. The snakeshot rounds simply don't have the required penetration. Ideally, you'd want a NAA in .22 Mag loaded with FMJ. Not JHP or LHP/LRN because the penetration of these common types of .22 bullet is lacking. You need all the power and penetration you can get with such a caliber, attempting to rely on expansion in this case simply isn't realistic.

Even with snakeshot, you still have to aim. Consider a 12-gauge shotgun, for example, with a cylinder choke. When fired across a good-sized room, the spread is about the same size as a large pizza. The Box Of Truth (Old Painless) has a pretty good article on that. Most defensive confrontations take place at extreme close ranges, like within 7 yards or less, so therefore your shot groups will be even tighter. This is with standard 9-pellet 00 Buck.

Consider now that snakeshot uses smaller and fewer pellets, therefore the grouping is going to be extremely tight (even more so than a 12-gauge), which means careful aiming is necessary no matter what you use. Getting a kill by "just getting close" only happens with explosive weapons, like rockets, missles and bombs, because they have a blast/fragmentation radius. Furthermore, you wouldn't want a weapon with extreme spread anyways because of the risk of hitting other people and objects unintentionally. It would be far too destructive and/or quite a waste if only a few of your pellets actually hit the target and the rest hit everything else around that target.

I have chambered multiple BB's in my pellet gun, for instance, to see what would happen. Not much spread at all, and results with .22 (and .45) snakeshot I've seen online square with what I was getting with my pellet gun. You don't get much spread and it's not very accurate. In fact, rifling completely throws off the shot pattern. Instead of getting a nice, centered, even pattern, you get an extremely tight pattern that is thrown off to one side (the side in which the rifling twist is in, like left-hand twist/right-hand twist), making any such round effective/accurate only at close ranges.



I couldn't agree more that shotshell rounds for a 22 WMR are poorly suited for anything other than rat shot. None of what you posted about the pattern makes any sense to me though. One shot from my 22 wmr at 7 yards peppers and covers the entire target, and takes no aiming. I don't know for a fact, but I believe these shotshells to conatin several more projectiles than a conventional shotgun shell. YMMV




Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Shot shells are for snakes and tweedy birds, have fun in court explaining why you felt the need to blind a person who thretened you. Sound like you vindictivly injured someone rather than defend yourself.



You have a valid point here. I have considered this, but I still keep my mini loaded with shotshells because I can't hit a damn thing with it otherwise. I've also heard arguments about lawyers trying to sell a jury that you seek to kill people when you load your weapon with hollow points (ie why not load the weapon with a less lethal round). It seems that either way, a prosecuting attorney has you by the balls. And I believe either way your fate depends on the quality and insightfulness of your defense attorney.



Your snakeshot rounds probably use #12 or #11 Birdshot, each pellet is only .05-.06 inches in width, smaller even than a .177 BB. Looking at a picture of the rounds, it looks like they'd hold a lot of these pellets. OTOH, 12-gauge #8 Birdshot shells are known to hold well over 100 pellets, even though they don't penetrate very well. So you probably have a lot of pellets there and they'd cause a very nasty superficial injury.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:50:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSheppard:
After reading how much you all liked yours, I bought one.

This is my NAA with a .50 Beo round for size comparison. They really are high quality firearms.




That shot makes me think they should design a single shot .50 Beowulf NAA pistol!
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:59:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ED_P:

Originally Posted By BSheppard:
After reading how much you all liked yours, I bought one.

This is my NAA with a .50 Beo round for size comparison. They really are high quality firearms.

i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/bs101177/NAAwithBeo.jpg



That shot makes me think they should design a single shot .50 Beowulf NAA pistol! hr


Ouch
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:05:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSheppard:
After reading how much you all liked yours, I bought one.



Congrats on the new mini! Now you gotta take it to the range and put a couple hundred rounds through it. It's not tough to learn to shoot it, but it does take some getting used to. Need to get used to it, since you'll be carrying it, and I'm sure you'll be carrying it. It's so small you've got no reason not to. Have fun!
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 3:59:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:
Your snakeshot rounds probably use #12 or #11 Birdshot, each pellet is only .05-.06 inches in width, smaller even than a .177 BB. Looking at a picture of the rounds, it looks like they'd hold a lot of these pellets. OTOH, 12-gauge #8 Birdshot shells are known to hold well over 100 pellets, even though they don't penetrate very well. So you probably have a lot of pellets there and they'd cause a very nasty superficial injury.



LOL. That brings to mind Ntl Lampoon's Vacation when John Candy realized Chevy Chase has a pellet gun instead of a real gun. It'll leave a nasty whelp that could get infected.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 5:10:02 PM EDT
.22lr gel tests at Golden Loki

Note the snake shot penetrates less than a COLIBRI !!
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:38:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rangie:
.22lr gel tests at Golden Loki

Note the snake shot penetrates less than a COLIBRI !!



Well after reading that and making a range trip today I've definately decided to re-think using shotshells for carry. I'll be loading CCI hollow points from now on.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:13:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ISED8U:

Originally Posted By Rangie:
.22lr gel tests at Golden Loki

Note the snake shot penetrates less than a COLIBRI !!



Well after reading that and making a range trip today I've definately decided to re-think using shotshells for carry. I'll be loading CCI hollow points from now on.



Take a gallon milk jug, fill it with water and shoot it with the shot shell........ not impressive at all.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:18:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ISED8U:
I have the 22 magnum with the 1 5/8 barrel. I can't hit a darn thing with hollow points, but I keep it loaded with CCI shotshells. The lethality of the shotshells is questionable at best, but I would imagine these "miniature shotgun shells" are effective for stopping a would-be attacker when fired at the neck or face. I may be able to hit my intended target better with a little more practice, but the shotshells make aiming an unnecessary task all together.

The pin that holds the wheel into the gun was defective in my (NIB) mini. After 1 phone call the company sent me a brand new one free of cost, and no questions asked. No problems with the revolver since. Makes a good pocket gun.




May send it back. Mine holds a tennis sized group at 10 yards with CCI 40gr hp, and 50gr federals. Like I posted earlier, I dremel tooled off my front sight to about a 1/16 of an inch before it wasn't shooting way low. The full sight shot about 2' low at 10 yards, so you may check on that too.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 1:10:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ChickenKiller:

Originally Posted By ISED8U:
I have the 22 magnum with the 1 5/8 barrel. I can't hit a darn thing with hollow points, but I keep it loaded with CCI shotshells. The lethality of the shotshells is questionable at best, but I would imagine these "miniature shotgun shells" are effective for stopping a would-be attacker when fired at the neck or face. I may be able to hit my intended target better with a little more practice, but the shotshells make aiming an unnecessary task all together.

The pin that holds the wheel into the gun was defective in my (NIB) mini. After 1 phone call the company sent me a brand new one free of cost, and no questions asked. No problems with the revolver since. Makes a good pocket gun.




May send it back. Mine holds a tennis sized group at 10 yards with CCI 40gr hp, and 50gr federals. Like I posted earlier, I dremel tooled off my front sight to about a 1/16 of an inch before it wasn't shooting way low. The full sight shot about 2' low at 10 yards, so you may check on that too.



After taking my mini along for the range trip today, I'll have to admit it actually shoots better groups than I thought. I didn't really bother to practice shooting with it (much) after I bought it. The gun isn't defective...it's the shooter. Shooting a handgun that small just takes a little getting used to.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:16:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rangie:
Get the Black widow- better grip and better sights.

The .17 caliber versions have had reports of case setback issues so stick with the .22Mag/LR/Short versions. The .17 dosen't make much sense in a handgun anyhow.



I've been told the .17 will play havok with a vest.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 11:09:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Guyver1:

Originally Posted By Rangie:
Get the Black widow- better grip and better sights.

The .17 caliber versions have had reports of case setback issues so stick with the .22Mag/LR/Short versions. The .17 dosen't make much sense in a handgun anyhow.



I've been told the .17 will play havok with a vest.



It's a distinct possibility, provided the bullet construction is robust enough to avoid fragmentation/deformation as a result of contact with armor. This would pretty much mandate that it be a .17 FMJ, if there are any FMJ loads in that caliber. However, even if it did defeat armor, odds are good that the damage done to the individual under the armor would be similar to what you'd get with a .177 pellet gun. So even if it did penetrate, it likely wouldn't do the job.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:16:06 AM EDT


Originally Posted By Guyver1:

I've been told the .17 will play havok with a vest.



Out of a rifle yes.

The .17HMR out of a 2" barrel is weak. 17gr@ 1200fps = 56FPE

Equal to a really good pelet gun.

Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:18:28 AM EDT
If your going to carry the .22LR version the CCI Velociter is probably the way to go. Mini-Mags would be my second choice.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:20:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Guyver1:
I've got teh Black Widow in .17 HMR

It's much easier to shoot with the bigger handle, and has a better stripping mechanism. I love to shoot mine, despite the muzzle flip.

www.naaminis.com/pix/naabw17s.jpg



Big +1 on the black widow. The sights are really much better too. I own two of them in .22 mag. Excellent little revolvers.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 11:40:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rangie:
If your going to carry the .22LR version the CCI Velociter is probably the way to go. Mini-Mags would be my second choice.



What about the stingers? I bought all three when I picked up the gun. I am on my way to do some testing. I had my money on the stingers but we will see.
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