Should you always cary with one in the pipe? - Page 2

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Posted: 3/4/2006 7:18:58 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

I doubt there's a single poster here that can give us an example of somebody that was "burned" by carrying w/o a round in the chamber, or somebody whose life was saved because of a round in the chamber.

Are you serious? Or just screwing around?

Posted: 3/4/2006 7:25:40 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:

I doubt there's a single poster here that can give us an example of somebody that was "burned" by carrying w/o a round in the chamber, or somebody whose life was saved because of a round in the chamber.

Are you serious? Or just screwing around?

I'm serious. Give me an example of someone that you know who engaged in a gunfight where the condition of carry determined the outcome. (Cops and soldiers don't count.)

Posted: 3/4/2006 7:31:01 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

I doubt there's a single poster here that can give us an example of somebody that was "burned" by carrying w/o a round in the chamber, or somebody whose life was saved because of a round in the chamber.

Are you serious? Or just screwing around?

I'm serious. Give me an example of someone that you know who engaged in a gunfight where the condition of carry determined the outcome. (Cops and soldiers don't count.)

While self defense situations are few and far between, I do not know anyone personally. But I still cannot follow your line of thought?

Whle I might know anyone personally, ANY self defense situation where a firearm was discharged the status of the weapon DID determine the outcome.

I am just not tracking I guess on the point you are trying to get across...?

You cannot defend yourself with a firearm properly if you do not have a round chambered. Simply put.

And why not include soldiers and police? its all the same. Let me know of any US Soldiers who patrol with empty chambers.

Posted: 3/4/2006 7:41:32 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

I doubt there's a single poster here that can give us an example of somebody that was "burned" by carrying w/o a round in the chamber, or somebody whose life was saved because of a round in the chamber.

Are you serious? Or just screwing around?

I'm serious. Give me an example of someone that you know who engaged in a gunfight where the condition of carry determined the outcome. (Cops and soldiers don't count.)

While self defense situations are few and far between, I do not know anyone personally. But I still cannot follow your line of thought?

Whle I might know anyone personally, ANY self defense situation where a firearm was discharged the status of the weapon DID determine the outcome.

I am just not tracking I guess on the point you are trying to get across...?

You cannot defend yourself with a firearm properly if you do not have a round chambered. Simply put.

And why not include soldiers and police? its all the same. Let me know of any US Soldiers who patrol with empty chambers.

I'm not trying to get any point across other then to state my opinion that the condition of carry, esp the perceived NEED to carry in Cond 1, is overrated.

I've "cleared leather" (I hate that expression) 2x in my 35 yrs. I was in Cond 1 both times, but if I had needed it I would have had plenty of time to chamber a round.

Of course, my limited experience is not scientific proof, but I've never heard of someone dying (or even getting shot) as a result of Cond 3.

Posted: 3/4/2006 7:45:40 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Of course, my limited experience is not scientific proof, but I've never heard of someone dying (or even getting shot) as a result of Cond 3.

all 3 underlined statements sum it up.

Just because it hasn't happened to you and/or because you haven't heard of it...doesn't mean it trumps common sense.

Posted: 3/4/2006 7:56:14 PM EDT

[#6]

ok, so show me someone who was disadvantaged by being in something other than Cond 1.

Posted: 3/4/2006 8:14:23 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
ok, so show me someone who was disadvantaged by being in something other than Cond 1.

Person A is walking to their car, is approached by Person Z with a deadly weapon, and has the intentions to rob/rape/kill/insert verb here).

Person A has a their sidearm on their strong side, in condition one, is able to save ther own life by presenting their firearm in time to defend their life and end the threat by a simple draw and shoot, point blank distance.

vs......

Person A is walking to their car, is approached by Person Z with a deadly weapon, and has the intentions to rob/rape/kill/insert verb here).

Person B has their sidearm on their strong side, without a round chambered, is killed because this aggressor is within point blank distance and Person B did not have the time, gross motor skills, and/or free hand/leg to rack the slide on their firearm. RIP.

OR...

Solider A is patrollng in an urban environment in the sand box, he is on point. He spots haji pointing an RPG at his platoon. He is in condition one, squares, up, controlled pair centered mass to end the threat before haji pulls the trigger.

vs

Soldier B is patrolling in an urban environment in the sandbox, he is on pont. He spots haji pointing an RPG as his platoon. He is unchambered, acks his slide in a time of stress, hoping that he pulled the charging handle hard and fast enough to chamber the round, squares up, gets on sight, but to see nothing but a white light from the RPG hitting feet in front of him.

Guns are designed to be carried with a round in the tube.. It is an easy question, with an easy answer. You render the tool obsolete not carrying it chambered.

Posted: 3/5/2006 5:33:25 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
ok, so show me someone who was disadvantaged by being in something other than Cond 1.

Person A is walking to their car, is approached by Person Z with a deadly weapon, and has the intentions to rob/rape/kill/insert verb here).

Person A has a their sidearm on their strong side, in condition one, is able to save ther own life by presenting their firearm in time to defend their life and end the threat by a simple draw and shoot, point blank distance.

vs......

Person A is walking to their car, is approached by Person Z with a deadly weapon, and has the intentions to rob/rape/kill/insert verb here).

Person B has their sidearm on their strong side, without a round chambered, is killed because this aggressor is within point blank distance and Person B did not have the time, gross motor skills, and/or free hand/leg to rack the slide on their firearm. RIP.

OR...

Solider A is patrollng in an urban environment in the sand box, he is on point. He spots haji pointing an RPG at his platoon. He is in condition one, squares, up, controlled pair centered mass to end the threat before haji pulls the trigger.

vs

Soldier B is patrolling in an urban environment in the sandbox, he is on pont. He spots haji pointing an RPG as his platoon. He is unchambered, acks his slide in a time of stress, hoping that he pulled the charging handle hard and fast enough to chamber the round, squares up, gets on sight, but to see nothing but a white light from the RPG hitting feet in front of him.

Guns are designed to be carried with a round in the tube.. It is an easy question, with an easy answer. You render the tool obsolete not carrying it chambered.

If you take that to its logical extreme, you could say the same about carying with the safety on.

Posted: 3/5/2006 6:04:14 AM EDT

[#9]

nothing in this world is extremely logic, so your counter arguement doesn't hold water. And who says it has to have a manual safety? there are those 'natural' safeties that are engaged while properly holding the pistol. Glocks, XDs, Sigs, Hk p2000/sk..keep going.

eta: going over the thread again, I have noticed some discrepancies (sp). I am arguing over carrying chambered, not just cocked and locked. Not everyone will be carrying a firearm designed to be cocked and locked, Only firearm I carry is a 1911, so i get the 2 intertwined.

So, whatever I said above, I meant to advocate carrying with a live round in the chamber, not necessarily cocked and locked.

Posted: 3/5/2006 6:20:20 AM EDT

[#10]

Just to be clear....I carry Cond 1. with an HK USP and a SA 1911. I have a new P7M8 which I haven't carried yet, but I'm looking forward to doing so.

While I would like to think my fine motor skills will get the safety off under "extreme" pressure, I just don't know because it's never happend to me. Hell, I might decock the USP.

Interesting - in your example - that you think your fine motor skills won't be effected, but your gross ones will.

I know that the one time that I came closest actually firing at a human (not a pistol/ccw situation) the fine motor skills were seriously impacted. I had no trouble racking the slide on a Mossberg 500, but I could barely operate a flashlight.

If you train to carry w/o a round chambered, I think your chances of getting a shot off are as good as condition 1.

But I know that 100% of the membership consists of Blackwater operators, so YMMV.

Posted: 3/5/2006 6:28:16 AM EDT

[#11]

<snip>

If you train to carry w/o a round chambered, I think your chances of getting a shot off are as good as condition 1.

Its a truely common sense situation. And anything past that, there are plenty of 'back yard' tests of people and even real deal tests where people were timed on the time it took to shoot a firearm with a round chambered, compared to not having a round chambered.
A google search would find them, and might even be posted around here.

But I know that 100% of the membership consists of Blackwater operators, so YMMV.

If you want this thread to 'teenchat', that is fine. I'll wait for other adults to show up.

Posted: 3/5/2006 6:36:36 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

<snip>

If you train to carry w/o a round chambered, I think your chances of getting a shot off are as good as condition 1.

Its a truely common sense situation. And anything past that, there are plenty of 'back yard' tests of people and even real deal tests where people were timed on the time it took to shoot a firearm with a round chambered, compared to not having a round chambered.
A google search would find them, and might even be posted around here.

But I know that 100% of the membership consists of Blackwater operators, so YMMV.

If you want this thread to 'teenchat', that is fine. I'll wait for other adults to show up.

I think I've made my point and you've made yours. No need to be an asshole.

Posted: 3/5/2006 6:39:57 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

But I know that 100% of the membership consists of Blackwater operators, so YMMV.

and

Quoted:
No need to be an asshole.

you haven't made your point, at all. You haven't supported your side at all. Only thing you have made is some mudslinging and name calling.

Posted: 3/5/2006 6:48:10 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:

But I know that 100% of the membership consists of Blackwater operators, so YMMV.

and

Quoted:
No need to be an asshole.

you haven't made your point, at all. You haven't supported your side at all. Only thing you have made is some mudslinging and name calling.

You feel that you've made your point just because you say so?

I pointed out to you, clearly and logically, that you should carry condition 0 if you really feel "You render the tool obsolete not carrying it chambered" yet you brushed that off. Why don't you address that.

Are you 101% percent sure that you can rely on your fine motor skills in the once in a bazillion instance that you're getting rushed by someone?

Posted: 3/5/2006 6:52:10 AM EDT

[#15]

Cocked, locked, and ready to rock, doc!

I would see no point in carrying concealed, as it is for readiness and preparation, unless you were
actually FULLY ready and FULLY prepared. That means no fumbling with loading your weapon when
the situation suddenly gets hot. If you have to clear leather, the safety comes off during the draw
and you're ready for what may have to be done NOW because you simply can't count on having any
other reasonable option.

When moments count, you don't need to be wasting time loading a gun that should already be ready to go.

CJ

Posted: 3/5/2006 6:56:40 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

But I know that 100% of the membership consists of Blackwater operators, so YMMV.

and

Quoted:
No need to be an asshole.

you haven't made your point, at all. You haven't supported your side at all. Only thing you have made is some mudslinging and name calling.

You feel that you've made your point just because you say so?

I pointed out to you, clearly and logically, that you should carry condition 0 if you really feel "You render the tool obsolete not carrying it chambered" yet you brushed that off. Why don't you address that.

Are you 101% percent sure that you can rely on your fine motor skills in the once in a bazillion instance that you're getting rushed by someone?

I have made my point with simple, common sense conclusions.

So, what are you saying now? Im confused? are you going retrograde on your point or still advocating condition 3?

I am 101% sure that I and the rest of the CCWing community would be able to get a quicker,faster,safer, more accurate shot fired at their intruder if their firearm is in condition 0/1 as compared to condition 3.

Define the moment with your readiness and simplicity, do not let the moment define you with your unloaded metal block on your hip.

Posted: 3/5/2006 8:12:20 AM EDT

[#17]

Condition 1, always. Otherwise it's not worth carrying.

If it cannot be safe carrying in condition one, then you are not safe in any other mode, either.

That said, choice of equipment is key. Many LEOs and individuals have been victims of "Glock Leg" where extra care was not taken in choice of holsters and gear, or where they temporarily lost their common sense. The most recent one I read was a SWAT team member who had a strap/lanyard cinch from a tactical vest get caught in the trigger when holstering, discharging the firearm and causing "Glock Leg" and a visit to the Emergency room.

User Error? Sure. But equipment choice and constant awareness are key when carrying in condition one.

Posted: 3/7/2006 4:59:12 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
i know that a lot of people would disagree w/ me, but it is just my personal preference that i would NOT consider a SA only gun with internal hammer for a carry weapon. I know a ND would be preventable with a good holster and common sense, but i personally would never do it. I'd rather carry my HK or something along those lines. just my $.02

WTF is an SA handgun with internal hammer? Examples?

Walther P99 QA

Posted: 3/7/2006 5:28:11 AM EDT

[#19]

In my opinion it is a total waste to carry your firearm unchambered. Shit happens and it happens fast in most situations. Folks dont have time to decide to unholster the weapon chamber a round and then get on target as fast as some shit happens. Think about the Video's you see here on shootings and tell me if in any of these situations you would have time to draw and rack the slide if you were the guy on the wrong side in the video.
Also the gentlemen that made the comment that safety is the same disadvantage as a unchambered gun. That sir is total bullshit. A good safety can be manipulated on the draw with one hand before you even meet the supporting hand.
I carry a 1911 every day and feel completly confident that I can carry the weapon safely Cocked and locked. Even with the 1911 I still think a good holster is required as it is with any other firearm. In my opinion again if you have to dog the damn pistol out of a bag or a tucked in shirt you are probably screwed any way. IMO rapid presentation is a key factor in living through most any bad situation.

Posted: 3/7/2006 7:23:25 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Also the gentlemen that made the comment that safety is the same disadvantage as a unchambered gun. That sir is total bullshit. A good safety can be manipulated on the draw with one hand before you even meet the supporting hand.
I carry a 1911 every day and feel completly confident that I can carry the weapon safely Cocked and locked. Even with the 1911 I still think a good holster is required as it is with any other firearm. In my opinion again if you have to dog the damn pistol out of a bag or a tucked in shirt you are probably screwed any way. IMO rapid presentation is a key factor in living through most any bad situation.

I think this is matter of personal preference. I prefer a no safety with a manual decocker (Sig style) because I know if I have to draw down it's one less thing I have to remember when I am faced with an extremely stressful situation, and I can manually decock it if I need to reholster.

But If you are willing to go through the drill and know you will remember to flip your thumb safety as a part of your draw, then of course it works for you. Totally depends on the individual.

Training and trigger time are key so that whatever you have to do, you can do it instinctively, regardless of whether you prefer a thumb safety or not.

Posted: 3/8/2006 6:20:47 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Also the gentlemen that made the comment that safety is the same disadvantage as a unchambered gun. That sir is total bullshit. A good safety can be manipulated on the draw with one hand before you even meet the supporting hand.
I carry a 1911 every day and feel completly confident that I can carry the weapon safely Cocked and locked. Even with the 1911 I still think a good holster is required as it is with any other firearm. In my opinion again if you have to dog the damn pistol out of a bag or a tucked in shirt you are probably screwed any way. IMO rapid presentation is a key factor in living through most any bad situation.

I think this is matter of personal preference. I prefer a no safety with a manual decocker (Sig style) because I know if I have to draw down it's one less thing I have to remember when I am faced with an extremely stressful situation, and I can manually decock it if I need to reholster.

But If you are willing to go through the drill and know you will remember to flip your thumb safety as a part of your draw, then of course it works for you. Totally depends on the individual.

Training and trigger time are key so that whatever you have to do, you can do it instinctively, regardless of whether you prefer a thumb safety or not.

The decocker on the sigs is a good option in my opnion. The long double action pull of the sigs I feel is a great way to carry with a chambered round. My thoughts were centered on the Glocks here.

You are 100% correct on training and trigger time no pistol is going to do the user much good if he doesnt develope confidence and skill in its use. For me I have been carrying and practicing with a 1911 style pistol in one form or another for years and it has become second nature. Just as it should for anyone regardless of what they choose to carry.

Posted: 3/8/2006 9:11:11 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Also the gentlemen that made the comment that safety is the same disadvantage as a unchambered gun. That sir is total bullshit. A good safety can be manipulated on the draw with one hand before you even meet the supporting hand.
I carry a 1911 every day and feel completly confident that I can carry the weapon safely Cocked and locked. Even with the 1911 I still think a good holster is required as it is with any other firearm. In my opinion again if you have to dog the damn pistol out of a bag or a tucked in shirt you are probably screwed any way. IMO rapid presentation is a key factor in living through most any bad situation.

I think this is matter of personal preference. I prefer a no safety with a manual decocker (Sig style) because I know if I have to draw down it's one less thing I have to remember when I am faced with an extremely stressful situation, and I can manually decock it if I need to reholster.

But If you are willing to go through the drill and know you will remember to flip your thumb safety as a part of your draw, then of course it works for you. Totally depends on the individual.

Training and trigger time are key so that whatever you have to do, you can do it instinctively, regardless of whether you prefer a thumb safety or not.

The decocker on the sigs is a good option in my opnion. The long double action pull of the sigs I feel is a great way to carry with a chambered round. My thoughts were centered on the Glocks here.

You are 100% correct on training and trigger time no pistol is going to do the user much good if he doesnt develope confidence and skill in its use. For me I have been carrying and practicing with a 1911 style pistol in one form or another for years and it has become second nature. Just as it should for anyone regardless of what they choose to carry.

Glocks are too touchy for me. The closest I'll get to carrying a Glock is the XD. At least it has a 1911-style grip safety and a fully supported chamber. I'm sure that last part will set off a hornet's nest among the Glock loving crowd, but it's true.

Posted: 3/8/2006 12:51:03 PM EDT

[#23]

+1 for one in the chamber, cocked and locked.

Posted: 3/8/2006 12:53:18 PM EDT

[#24]

I've carried both ways. I currently carry off-duty with one in the chamber. I switched primarily because my old pocket holster was not as secure, but also, I might not have the use of both hands (such as when walking the dog).

That being said, I think the likelyhood of drawing a weapon acts as a strong deterrent against humans. Based on NRA statistics, in the vast majority of self defense situations a crime is prevented without a shot being fired (somewhere on the order of 90%+ I think).

I think some of the previous posters have been right, it is unlikely that carrying CCW with the chamber empty will make a life or death difference for the vast majority of us. (Along those same lines, it is probably unlikely for me to be in a situation where a firearm will make a life or death difference - but I carry anyway).

However you choose to carry, practice regularly.

Posted: 3/8/2006 1:23:10 PM EDT

[#25]

Hey guys! New to this froum, but certaintly not new to firearms. The 1911 platform has been my primary carry for 30+yrs, both as a duty weapon and personal carry. Before the 1911s, I carried revolvers as most of us old guys did. I own and carry a variety of pistols these days, mostly Glocks/Sigs/CZs/Smiths/Kel tecs/Kimbers (Even a Charles Daly). I appreciate the virtures of them all. Still, I cannot imagine carrying an unchambered pistol in any platform. It seems to me that the addition of a step in the draw to fire sequence, (Chambering) would undisputedly add time to the event. The operation of the manual safety on the 1911 is done on the draw, as it is accomplished by the proper "Thumbs" grip. When properly executed, it adds no time to the sequence. I do not consider an unchambered weapon to be in a ready condition. A weapon that is unsafe to carry chambered, is unsafe to carry!
Cheers

Posted: 3/8/2006 2:14:34 PM EDT

[#26]

I doubt there's a single poster here that can give us an example of somebody that was "burned" by carrying w/o a round in the chamber, or somebody whose life was saved because of a round in the chamber.

Exactly. For such a non-issue to get so much attention is baffling at best. As I've said before, carrying with a round in the chamber or not is only one factor in the presentation, and usually a factor that is not very important.

Posted: 3/8/2006 2:17:56 PM EDT

[#27]

Guns are designed to be carried with a round in the tube.. It is an easy question, with an easy answer. You render the tool obsolete not carrying it chambered.

Nonsense. History is a pretty good indicator, and when one looks at this issue you see that chamber-empty carry has been the norm until recently, and is still the norm in some pretty hot spots out there. It may not always be the best way to carry, but you don't lose much if you choose to do so.

Posted: 3/8/2006 2:18:56 PM EDT

[#28]

prepare for the onslaught, darm.

Posted: 3/8/2006 2:21:22 PM EDT

[#29]

I am 101% sure that I and the rest of the CCWing community would be able to get a quicker,faster,safer, more accurate shot fired at their intruder if their firearm is in condition 0/1 as compared to condition 3.

But getting a shot off is only one part of the CCW paradigm, and usually one of the rarest parts. Focusing on one small part while ignoring the larger segment ruins your argument.

Posted: 3/8/2006 2:27:17 PM EDT

[#30]

prepare for the onslaught, darm.

No problem. I've gone through this nonsense here before, and will probably go through it again. I don't get too excited about it. Few here apparently know how to do a proper risk assessment, fewer still have any idea of the true history of firearms, and far fewer have anywhere near the training and experience I have, so I generally continue to point out the facts while they continue to toss around a bunch of irrelevant "what if" stuff. There are enough real warriors out there that have carried chamber empty that listening to the rantings of internet warriors make their claims is kind of funny.

Posted: 3/8/2006 2:32:09 PM EDT

[#31]

Perfect example of a good reason why your weapon should be loaded and ready to go.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=443057

Video of a clerk shooting an armed robber three times. This happened pretty damn fast.

If you have to rack your slide to chamber a round after drawing your weapon, you're going to lose at least one half of a second, as well as blow your cover.

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

I alternate my carry between my two Walther P99s (9mm and .40). Both lack an external safety mechanism, and I carry with it loaded and ready to go.

Posted: 3/8/2006 2:43:00 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Perfect example of a good reason why your weapon should be loaded and ready to go.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=443057

Video of a clerk shooting an armed robber three times. This happened pretty damn fast.

If you have to rack your slide to chamber a round after drawing your weapon, you're going to lose at least one half of a second, as well as blow your cover.

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

+1

furthermore, its kinda tough to rack a slide w/ one hand

carry condition 1, b/c it when you need it, you will more than likely need it FAST and ready to go

Posted: 3/8/2006 3:15:42 PM EDT

[#33]

Doesn't it all comeback to training? I mean, pick a way and stay with it. If you don't carry "one in the pipe"and you always train that way...you're fine...if you switch up depending on gun, then you have to remember which way youare carrying when you go for the gun....

Do I need to chamber I round? nope, not this gun. wait... no, I'm not carrying that one.

Best case scenario...you eject a live round...worse case scenario, you go "click".

No Expert

I specifically bought a DAO pistol for carry. No hammer or levers sticking out to catch on things, smoother profile for ease and concealability, no safety to be "left in the wrong position".

standard disclaimers: IANAL IANALEO IMHO YMMV etc

Posted: 3/8/2006 6:22:48 PM EDT

[#34]

I guess I still haven't heard a convincing arguement for the reason to carry a modern auto with an empty chamber. Not criticizing anyone's decision, just looking for a good reason.

Ever trained to win a gun fight? Ever "broke-leather" in a bad situation? Things go down fast. Given my choice, I'd rather draw and be taking up the slack on the trigger as I come up on target. If I have to I can get a well placed shot right after the gun leaves the holster. But that's the way I train...

My feeling is that if you have to carry a gun without a round in the chamber, time to rethink your gun choice. Or you need better training: finger off the trigger, unholster/reholster, etc.

Whatever you decide, train, train, train until everything is muscle memory. Then train some more.

Posted: 3/8/2006 6:30:46 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
I doubt there's a single poster here that can give us an example of somebody that was "burned" by carrying w/o a round in the chamber, or somebody whose life was saved because of a round in the chamber.

Exactly. For such a non-issue to get so much attention is baffling at best. As I've said before, carrying with a round in the chamber or not is only one factor in the presentation, and usually a factor that is not very important.

Probably not, but the two examples of situations that come to my mind went down in only a few seconds. Adding the extra step of chambering a round would have killed a friend. No doubt in my mind, or his I'm sure.

Posted: 3/8/2006 7:42:57 PM EDT

[#36]

I've always been advocate of carring one in the pipe.

The video in the thread that JustinOK34 linked to just reinforced the position that one in the pipe is the ONLY way to carry.

The guy who shot the would be robber started to clear leather and dropped the badguy in 2.9 seconds. In those 2.9 seconds the badguy ran and moved from one side of the room to halfway out the door.

If the guy behind the desk had to rack the slide the scenario may have played out much different. There were enough things to worry about in that video like the woman with the baby, the coworker, and the perp that if he had to rack the slide I don't think he would have had a chance to do what he did. The badguy could have just run away or might have had a chance to actually shoot.

When you need your gun, it means YOUR REALLY NEED IT RIGHT NOW! There is no pause button in the gun fight.

Posted: 3/8/2006 7:50:09 PM EDT

[#37]

agreed. im having a hard time why people do not get the point of carrying a gun? It is a very simple situation. And in regards to 'history' and 'tiny segments not focusing on the bigger picture' malarky, your complicating the issue and clouding your own point.

Having a pistol, with a round chambered, is a defensive weapon.

Having a pistol, with an empty chamber, is not a defensive weapon.

Which one do you want at a moments notice to save your life or someone you love?

Simple.

Posted: 3/8/2006 8:23:06 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
I've always been advocate of carring one in the pipe.

The video in the thread that JustinOK34 linked to just reinforced the position that one in the pipe is the ONLY way to carry.

The guy who shot the would be robber started to clear leather and dropped the badguy in 2.9 seconds. In those 2.9 seconds the badguy ran and moved from one side of the room to halfway out the door.

If the guy behind the desk had to rack the slide the scenario may have played out much different. There were enough things to worry about in that video like the woman with the baby, the coworker, and the perp that if he had to rack the slide I don't think he would have had a chance to do what he did. The badguy could have just run away or might have had a chance to actually shoot.

When you need your gun, it means YOUR REALLY NEED IT RIGHT NOW! There is no pause button in the gun fight.

That dude was going for the door before the clerk fired the first shot.

That is not a good example

Posted: 3/8/2006 10:24:02 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I've always been advocate of carring one in the pipe.

The video in the thread that JustinOK34 linked to just reinforced the position that one in the pipe is the ONLY way to carry.

The guy who shot the would be robber started to clear leather and dropped the badguy in 2.9 seconds. In those 2.9 seconds the badguy ran and moved from one side of the room to halfway out the door.

If the guy behind the desk had to rack the slide the scenario may have played out much different. There were enough things to worry about in that video like the woman with the baby, the coworker, and the perp that if he had to rack the slide I don't think he would have had a chance to do what he did. The badguy could have just run away or might have had a chance to actually shoot.

When you need your gun, it means YOUR REALLY NEED IT RIGHT NOW! There is no pause button in the gun fight.

That dude was going for the door before the clerk fired the first shot.

That is not a good example

The BG was pulling a gun out right before he ran. If he had a set of balls(witch most BGs do) he could have shot the clerk, if a round wasn't chambered. So i think imo that it IS a good example.

Posted: 3/9/2006 10:34:32 AM EDT

[#40]

Heys guys im new hear, love the site. Good debate.

Carrying with one chambered takes confidence in yourself and weapon.

All CCWs should be chambered or they can become useless if you are caught off guard, injured in a way that makes it impossible to chamber and or if a BG is dragging you out of your car etc.

Personally i carried my Kimber cocked and unlocked(unchambered) untill i felt confident enough to carry cocked and locked. Worked for me.

Posted: 3/9/2006 6:30:00 PM EDT

[#41]

If you carry unchambered you need two hands and an entire second or two before you're able to use the weapon.

If you carry chambered you only need one hand to draw the weapon and use it.
That gives you one free arm to shove the bad guy away if he's in your face. You could use that arm to do so many things, depending on the situation.

In the case of the video, that clerk was pretending to hand over the money.
Sure the guy ran in the video as soon as he pulled out the gun. But he could have easily shot back depending on his mood.

Posted: 3/11/2006 7:28:20 PM EDT

[#42]

I have always kept my pistols with an empty chamber for a couple of reasons:
1. fear of an accidental discharge, and
2. I have small children at home, which makes me even more chicken about #1

But after watching the video of the clerk shooting the armed robber, and having a friend getting kidnapped and forced to drive someone 1 hour away at gunpoint while pumping gas in broad daylight, I have to rethink my position. So I looked up some relevant statistics

In 2004, there were 495 violent crime offenses per 100,000 people in the US
in the same year, there were 5.5 homicides per 100,000 people in the US

In 2003 (the only year I could find, sorry) there were 0.15 deaths per 100,000 people due to accidental discharges of firearms.

Now, of these homicides and violent crimes, how many would that split second make a difference? I don't know, but it looks like me or my family would be far more likely to need that chambered round than to be accidentally killed because of it.

Maybe I should rethink my position as well. How do you guys deal with bullet setback from repeated chambering and clearing your weapons for cleaning, lubing, etc?

Posted: 3/12/2006 4:46:31 AM EDT

[#43]

I think if you're gonna carry it in a backpack, it will take long enough to draw that the .3 second difference between chambered or not won't matter. No way I would carry a glock chambered if it's bouncing around loose in a backpack. Too many ways for the trigger to get snagged. I wouldn't hesitate to carry it chambered with a good holster though.

I carry a PM9 cond 3 in a smartcarry when I need deep concealment, a USP 45f cond 2 when I don't. I'm the one that posted about carrying unchambered when using a glock/kahr soft holsters a while back. All the Rambo wannabes went nuts over even the thought of carrying izzy style. Take a look at the facts though, ~40% of the people here have said they had a ND/AD. What percentage have had to use their firearm? Do your own risk assessment and go with what you're comfortable with.

Posted: 3/12/2006 4:57:09 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Guns are designed to be carried with a round in the tube.. It is an easy question, with an easy answer. You render the tool obsolete not carrying it chambered.

Nonsense. History is a pretty good indicator, and when one looks at this issue you see that chamber-empty carry has been the norm until recently, and is still the norm in some pretty hot spots out there. It may not always be the best way to carry, but you don't lose much if you choose to do so.

I heard the MinuteMen always carried their muskets around unloaded until they were attacked by some British, whereupon they would commence to load them.

Posted: 3/12/2006 5:00:24 AM EDT

[#45]

I have a question that seems to fit this thread. How do you guys leave your ARs? Personally I leave my AR loaded up - 2 30rd mags coupled together with one in the chamber - with the safety on. I had some friends come over who carry and they seemed to think that that was a little unsafe. I explained that it's the same as all the pistols were carrying... Don't touch the trigger and it won't go off.

What do you guys think about ARs?

Posted: 3/12/2006 5:02:30 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
I doubt there's a single poster here that can give us an example of somebody that was "burned" by carrying w/o a round in the chamber, or somebody whose life was saved because of a round in the chamber.

Exactly. For such a non-issue to get so much attention is baffling at best. As I've said before, carrying with a round in the chamber or not is only one factor in the presentation, and usually a factor that is not very important.

I recall reading a Combat Handguns a while back and Massad Ayoob has his article in there addressing this question. He gave an example of a man and was carrying a Glock in a fanny pack that was unchambered. He drew his pistol and short racked it - pulled the trigger and it went "click". The BG shot him a couple times. He lived though.

ETA: I'll see if I can find that article. I think it was over a year ago and I ususally donate my old magazines to the work crapper so I doubt I have it.

Posted: 3/12/2006 7:32:43 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
I think if you're gonna carry it in a backpack, it will take long enough to draw that the .3 second difference between chambered or not won't matter. No way I would carry a glock chambered if it's bouncing around loose in a backpack. Too many ways for the trigger to get snagged. I wouldn't hesitate to carry it chambered with a good holster though.

I carry a PM9 cond 3 in a smartcarry when I need deep concealment, a USP 45f cond 2 when I don't. I'm the one that posted about carrying unchambered when using a glock/kahr soft holsters a while back. All the Rambo wannabes went nuts over even the thought of carrying izzy style. Take a look at the facts though, ~40% of the people here have said they had a ND/AD. What percentage have had to use their firearm? Do your own risk assessment and go with what you're comfortable with.

You can't bring that kind of logic in here, Duke.

All of us are in Condition Red 24/7

Carrying without one one in the pipe is tantamount to suicide.

Posted: 3/12/2006 7:36:18 AM EDT

[#48]

I dont know if "YOU" should always carry one in the chamber or not, but I can tell you that "I" sure as hell do.

Posted: 3/12/2006 10:51:53 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I think if you're gonna carry it in a backpack, it will take long enough to draw that the .3 second difference between chambered or not won't matter. No way I would carry a glock chambered if it's bouncing around loose in a backpack. Too many ways for the trigger to get snagged. I wouldn't hesitate to carry it chambered with a good holster though.

I carry a PM9 cond 3 in a smartcarry when I need deep concealment, a USP 45f cond 2 when I don't. I'm the one that posted about carrying unchambered when using a glock/kahr soft holsters a while back. All the Rambo wannabes went nuts over even the thought of carrying izzy style. Take a look at the facts though, ~40% of the people here have said they had a ND/AD. What percentage have had to use their firearm? Do your own risk assessment and go with what you're comfortable with.

You can't bring that kind of logic in here, Duke.

All of us are in Condition Red 24/7

Carrying without one one in the pipe is tantamount to suicide.

Now, now, no need to be melodramatic...

How about this, can anyone name a local, state or federal agency that carries without one in the chamber? And before you say "But that's LE!", don't the same rules apply? Protection of yourself and your family? If you are carrying on your body, you should have a round chambered. All things being equal, the one with a chambered round is winning the fight.

Think of it this way, between you and the badguy, who KNOWS if they are going to pull the trigger? The badguy. He does not care about anything else, so he already has the advantage. Why give him another?

THE question: Why do you carry? Hopefully it's not to look cool, not for intimidation, not for fun. But, if something happens, to meet deadly force with deadly force and be the one that walks away. Right? If it is for any other reason, by all means, carry a gun without one in the chamber.

Again, if you aren't confident enough to carry your gun without worrying about an AD, you need more training, a better gun, or better gear. And more training.

Posted: 3/12/2006 11:08:27 AM EDT

[#50]

I carry with one in the pipe.

However this video clip is proof that it is not for everyone, that in fact some should not be allowed to chamber live ammunation at all, including LE, apparently.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Should you always cary with one in the pipe? (Page 2 of 4)

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