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Posted: 7/19/2022 1:29:16 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s funny that the same thing keeps happening with the same gun, at least twice on video now to my knowledge and people still keep denying it happens or saying it’s somehow the persons fault. LOL. I won’t take the bet that no Sig, at some time or another failed. We all know shit happens at the factory. The question is if it’s an unsafe, systemic failure issue. The evidence does not support that. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 2:18:00 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Glock fanboy here and I only shoot a Sig M17 when I’m told too. I appreciate your open mind and mine is not completely closed, but: This has been done before. This has been going on for years now, and has been stated before, no one can seem to duplicate it even with the same “defective” gun. Only military and law enforcement guns seem to be going off by themselves. Mostly law enforcement. I also see some stupid shit even on highly controlled military ranges. I’m not from the the “My Bay Bay Major Dindu Nuffin” when they AD. But many have a vested interest in these being equipment failures rather than brain farts. And this is my opinion of what is going on with these Sig’s that keep “going off by themselves”. I totally get that I know officers lie when they have a ND and new agencies eat it up but that is because they do not know any better. Right or wrong it is because they do not understand the mechanism of how a pistol works. I think it was a case awhile back where a officer discharged his service weapon then blamed the weapon light. So instead of taking personal responsibility they either did or called to sue to light maker when everyone who knows anything about how these things work know the officer was the issue in this case. What should have happened was more and better training around the WML instead of the officer pointing fingers at everything else except himself. I can see how a ND can happen with a WML and 99.999999999999% chance it is shooter related issue not mechanical issue. Relating to the P320 specifically we are not getting any information to draw a conclusion that is based on sound facts. All we are being told is this happened in a holster with terrible video evidence to support it that only creates more questions and answers absolutely nothing. I really do hope this is a training/user error because people are carrying these pistols right now at this moment and I want to believe these pistols are safe no risking good people's lives. For the record I am a pistol fanboy I love pistols in general I own Glocks, Sig P22x, HKs, CZs, 1911s, Ruger 22s, S&Ws M&Ps and so on you get the idea. I would own a P320 had I not missed a smoking deal I thought about for to long or if the P226/8 mags fit. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 2:27:34 PM EDT
[#3]
Yeah, not buying it.
Never owned a SIG but if they're discharging in holsters without being touched then they've been demonically possessed. They were able to be impact fired before the update, but it took a pretty specific blow. If they are that easy to discharge it should be quite easy to replicate in a lab. 87-1 this is lies for lawsuits. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 4:37:35 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, not buying it. Never owned a SIG but if they're discharging in holsters without being touched then they've been demonically possessed. They were able to be impact fired before the update, but it took a pretty specific blow. If they are that easy to discharge it should be quite easy to replicate in a lab. 87-1 this is lies for lawsuits. It could be an expensive gamble if they do not pay off. If Sig wins proving that either the circumstances put forth in the case are false completely frivolous or outright lie by the officer to CYA Sig could recoup its legal fees from the municipality for the suit. Right so they should be reimbursed if they prove it was not a mechanical malfunction. Discovery of these cases should prove interesting I would like to see the evidence that they will show that the P320 did malfunction or have a mechanical flaw/issue that leads to the unintentional discharge inside a holster. You should not bring a lawsuit to court without some evidence that under X or Y circumstance this pistol will do this or that. So I really want to know what lawyer looked at this and said you have a case because what we have seen currently is grainy video and people's opinion with no supporting evidence or reduplication of the issue on said pistol. Part of me wonders if they are pulling some sketchy if you do this, that, and this again then bump the pistol right here while pressing the trigger ABRA CA DABRA the pistol fires. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 4:57:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We do not know that 100% fact at this time and I have seen multiple of the videos where the P320 fired and each video leaves a lot of questions, tend to be super grainy(for God sakes the Kennedy assassination had better video evidence), and not conclusive proof of where the issue is. We have no idea if something got into the holster or any details about the pistols in question and we know officers lie when this happens. Just look at all the negligent discharge cases over the years (not just Sig P320) where what the officer says does not line up with reality if you have any basic understanding of how a specific firearm operates. Other questions I would like to know .... Were weapon lights on all the pistols? Which light? Were WML on some of the pistols in question? Did something get into the holster I know that pistols with WML the holsters have more room for objects to get in the holster. I am not aware of this issue being duplicated in a laboratory type environment where one is testing to try an induce this issue but we also lack a lot of information about the issue other than local new blips about it. Sig is not saying anything probably because lawyers are telling them to keep quiet and I am sure they are testing to see if this is a real issue or another external factor where a combination of parts, holster, weaponlight, or unknown factors. Right now I am in the skeptical but interested phase as I would love to be one of the guys testing to see if they can reduplicate this issue in a test environment. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don’t have the video saved, you’re more than welcome to go look for it if you want to see it but my guess if that you don’t because you don’t want to see what actually happened and get the reality check. The video is a uniformed officer with no jacket or anything like that that could get into the holster. These guns can fire unprovoked and it’s becoming more and more documented. A striker gun in a Safariland duty holster going off is an issue. We do not know that 100% fact at this time and I have seen multiple of the videos where the P320 fired and each video leaves a lot of questions, tend to be super grainy(for God sakes the Kennedy assassination had better video evidence), and not conclusive proof of where the issue is. We have no idea if something got into the holster or any details about the pistols in question and we know officers lie when this happens. Just look at all the negligent discharge cases over the years (not just Sig P320) where what the officer says does not line up with reality if you have any basic understanding of how a specific firearm operates. Other questions I would like to know .... Were weapon lights on all the pistols? Which light? Were WML on some of the pistols in question? Did something get into the holster I know that pistols with WML the holsters have more room for objects to get in the holster. Quoted: Has anyone here or elsewhere ever shown any plausible mechanism that leads to an uninitiated discharge. Anywhere? Anyone? I have said before, I think that the P320 has too sensitive a trigger for police who have too much strapped to them and these "wardrobe"et al malfunctions are happening. So I am still waiting for a technical description of how this happens. I am not aware of this issue being duplicated in a laboratory type environment where one is testing to try an induce this issue but we also lack a lot of information about the issue other than local new blips about it. Sig is not saying anything probably because lawyers are telling them to keep quiet and I am sure they are testing to see if this is a real issue or another external factor where a combination of parts, holster, weaponlight, or unknown factors. Right now I am in the skeptical but interested phase as I would love to be one of the guys testing to see if they can reduplicate this issue in a test environment. You bring up a good point with the WML thing, but I'm gonna go a different way. Can a gun with an WML have the WML torqued on tight enough to bend the frame in such a way that it makes a discharge like this possible? |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 5:52:42 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You bring up a good point with the WML thing, but I'm gonna go a different way. Can a gun with an WML have the WML torqued on tight enough to bend the frame in such a way that it makes a discharge like this possible? I do not believe so I think it would be more of a could cause a malfunction by applying pressure to the recoil spring or deforming the frame in a way that changes the alignment of slide rails in the frame. But I cannot say 100% that with X brand/model WML, with Y frame/pistol model, and Hercules torque applied that the pistol may behave differently. Maybe that difference changes how a trigger bar rubs on the frame increasing/decreasing the trigger press or modifying it in a way that make it terrible to press. I do not think it could have an effect that would make a pistol dangerous that it would fire over some wild circumstance but who knows maybe in a .0000000001 chance it can? I think one of the plausible issues could center around the WML, holster, and the larger more open holster that it allowed an object to get into the trigger guard like the jacket some have mentioned. I am really just shotgunning ideas here because I have no idea what holster was used I think it was a Safariland from the video where the guy is slapping the pistol muzzle down on a table to get it to dry fire. I could be wrong on the holster and correct me if I am. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 5:55:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you cite your sources? Do you know that the suspected pistols had no thumb safeties? I am not convinced of anything we have almost zero data on the matter. We have no idea of the exact model or circumstances. Your post is based solely on what you believe not facts. None of us know if it was poor handling or if it was mechanical failure that is one of a only a few facts about the matter we know. A pistol discharged in a holster, it was a Sig P320, and we know nothing else. Again it is funny how all the fanboys come out of the woodwork to the defense of Sig without knowing any facts. Seems we should wait for discovery and not jump to conclusions people really are carrying these pistols. Why assume they are flawless instead of taking a minute and examining the data when presented so you can draw conclusions on data not feelings. I think the P320 is a great pistol but what if it has a mechanical issue that under a certain set of circumstances it can discharge without pressing the trigger it is entirely plausible. If it is human error I will be first to call the person a dumbass but until we have actual proof one way or the other I will reserve my opinion and say at this time we do not have sufficient evidence to draw any conclusion. That is a good looking pistol but sample size one and you come to that conclusion? Unfortunately the nature of discussion forums is just that, discussion. The topic was posted, limited info is available, so its a bunch of wild ass guesses until we get an answer. Unfortunately, its unlikely that an answer will be had unless this uncovers something recall worthy. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 5:58:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 320 doesn’t have a block, it has a thin piece of bent metal that barely catches the striker. Semantics aside, it would still need more than one parts failure to occur as best as I can tell, unless there was something mechanically blocking full travel of the sear, which again I can't really see happening- even as such, a part failure would still be required for discharge. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 5:58:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately the nature of discussion forums is just that, discussion. The topic was posted, limited info is available, so its a bunch of wild ass guesses until we get an answer. Unfortunately, its unlikely that an answer will be had unless this uncovers something recall worthy. Agreed but it is nice to hear from owners of P320's that could give their thoughts on what they might think it is instead of coming in and immediately dismissing it outright. I have handled a few P320's and dinked around with taking them apart. They are very interesting pistols and love the FCU idea but I wonder if some strange chain of events could lead to this. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 6:10:06 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed but it is nice to hear from owners of P320's that could give their thoughts on what they might think it is instead of coming in and immediately dismissing it outright. I have handled a few P320's and dinked around with taking them apart. They are very interesting pistols and love the FCU idea but I wonder if some strange chain of events could lead to this. ONLY thing I can think of is a striker block (or whatever they call it) failure in conjunction with debris blocking the sear from returning to full engagement. Or, a horribly out of spec slide that sat far too high relative to the FCU causing the sear and striker to have significantly out of spec engagement, but still, an additional failure would be required. The sear springs are pretty stout, so I really can't see normal fouling or dirt causing any issues. Thats about all I can think of. Mechanically Im not sure there really could be any other issues, but again, I'm just a casual user who loves to tear things apart and see how they work. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 7:39:18 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do not believe so I think it would be more of a could cause a malfunction by applying pressure to the recoil spring or deforming the frame in a way that changes the alignment of slide rails in the frame. But I cannot say 100% that with X brand/model WML, with Y frame/pistol model, and Hercules torque applied that the pistol may behave differently. Maybe that difference changes how a trigger bar rubs on the frame increasing/decreasing the trigger press or modifying it in a way that make it terrible to press. I do not think it could have an effect that would make a pistol dangerous that it would fire over some wild circumstance but who knows maybe in a .0000000001 chance it can? I think one of the plausible issues could center around the WML, holster, and the larger more open holster that it allowed an object to get into the trigger guard like the jacket some have mentioned. I am really just shotgunning ideas here because I have no idea what holster was used I think it was a Safariland from the video where the guy is slapping the pistol muzzle down on a table to get it to dry fire. I could be wrong on the holster and correct me if I am. I can easily see where a shirt or other clothing could get in the trigger area during holstering, however. I am very conscientious on that-making sure that any loose clothing is held away by my free hand during holstering. I would do the same with a Glock as there is the same potential despite the trigger mechanics difference between the two. Nick |
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Posted: 7/20/2022 3:01:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Who cares if you can't duplicate the failure. There are 12 or more suits currently, out of how many 320s made? It's a needle in a haystack.
Not sure if they're defective, but after all the shenanigans Sig has pulled I wouldn't be surprised. |
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Posted: 7/20/2022 3:59:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who cares if you can't duplicate the failure. There are 12 or more suits currently, out of how many 320s made? It's a needle in a haystack. Not sure if they're defective, but after all the shenanigans Sig has pulled I wouldn't be surprised. People care because that is how you actually identify and root cause issues. If someone wrecks their car and claims the car just drove itself off the road, you don't just take their word for it. You inspect the car, and look for defects or problems that could cause that specific type of wreck. You also have to examine the driver, were they looking at their phone or had they been drinking...etc. Because it could be a mechanical problem, or it could be user error. Until one of the guns from the suits can be examined, or the failure can be recreated, you can't rule out human error. If you can't rule out human error, then you can't place the blame on the gun. At this point for all we know it could be a holster issue rather than a gun issue. I'm not a Sig fanboy, I do own a 320 but it's a range gun for me, my primary carry gun is a G19. If there truly is a problem with the 320's, I hope it's found and Sig is held responsible. |
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Posted: 7/21/2022 4:54:42 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It could be an expensive gamble if they do not pay off. If Sig wins proving that either the circumstances put forth in the case are false completely frivolous or outright lie by the officer to CYA Sig could recoup its legal fees from the municipality for the suit. Right so they should be reimbursed if they prove it was not a mechanical malfunction. Discovery of these cases should prove interesting I would like to see the evidence that they will show that the P320 did malfunction or have a mechanical flaw/issue that leads to the unintentional discharge inside a holster. You should not bring a lawsuit to court without some evidence that under X or Y circumstance this pistol will do this or that. So I really want to know what lawyer looked at this and said you have a case because what we have seen currently is grainy video and people's opinion with no supporting evidence or reduplication of the issue on said pistol. Part of me wonders if they are pulling some sketchy if you do this, that, and this again then bump the pistol right here while pressing the trigger ABRA CA DABRA the pistol fires. I don’t think it’ll ever get to court. The corporate bean counters will decide that an out of court settlement is cheaper than legal fees so that’s what they’ll do. |
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Posted: 7/21/2022 7:49:03 AM EDT
[#15]
People have video of bigfoot and claim it's real too...
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Posted: 7/21/2022 8:52:36 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The striker slips off the sear? Quote HistoryQuoted: The striker slips off the sear? There's a second notch should that happen and let's be honest, it doesn't just slip off getting out of the car... You'd have to smack the shit out of it just right AND the striker safety lock would still prevent it from firing. Quoted: If you look I’m sure you can find it. The cop is just standing in a subway or something and goes to move his leg and it fires. I personally know someone who has a chunk of meat missing from his ass cheek from his P320 firing when he placed his hand on it to unholster and there were several witnesses to that including a few cop buddies. Sure it did. The amorer class I just went to addressed two of these stories. One was a Cop that allegedly had his go off unprovoked in it's holster or so the claim went. The guy was working off duty security or something, they found cctv footage of him lifting it out of the holster past the retention and dropping it back in a few blocks from where it allegedly "fired by itself" Another was a lady cop who had it go off holstered. Her holster was her purse and they counted 27 pens in the purse with the gun which was floating around the purse with nothing covering the trigger guard. I'm sure plenty of people witnessed that happen unprovoked too, it's still bullshit. |
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Posted: 7/21/2022 9:23:01 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a second notch should that happen and let's be honest, it doesn't just slip off getting out of the car... You'd have to smack the shit out of it just right AND the striker safety lock would still prevent it from firing. Sure it did. The amorer class I just went to addressed two of these stories. One was a Cop that allegedly had his go off unprovoked in it's holster or so the claim went. The guy was working off duty security or something, they found cctv footage of him lifting it out of the holster past the retention and dropping it back in a few blocks from where it allegedly "fired by itself" Another was a lady cop who had it go off holstered. Her holster was her purse and they counted 27 pens in the purse with the gun which was floating around the purse with nothing covering the trigger guard. I'm sure plenty of people witnessed that happen unprovoked too, it's still bullshit. I’m trying to keep an open mind as much as possible, but I’m getting deja vu from back when the Glock platform was an up and coming. Many “experts” wrote analysis, testified in court about the “unsafe design” that was responsible for them going off by themselves, failures to fire, blowing up. There was just enough unicorns that were actual issues to give some credence to some of the literal bull shit claims. It’s also my recollection that Glock paid out on a lot of claims out of court instead of funding the lawsuit. I’ve personally witnessed two M17’s blow up from the unsupported part of the chamber, but I’ve never personally seen nor heard of one going off by itself. My sample/exposure is in the 100’s of government owned M17’s on military ranges. |
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Posted: 7/21/2022 11:45:01 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People care because that is how you actually identify and root cause issues. If someone wrecks their car and claims the car just drove itself off the road, you don't just take their word for it. You inspect the car, and look for defects or problems that could cause that specific type of wreck. You also have to examine the driver, were they looking at their phone or had they been drinking...etc. Because it could be a mechanical problem, or it could be user error. Until one of the guns from the suits can be examined, or the failure can be recreated, you can't rule out human error. If you can't rule out human error, then you can't place the blame on the gun. At this point for all we know it could be a holster issue rather than a gun issue. I'm not a Sig fanboy, I do own a 320 but it's a range gun for me, my primary carry gun is a G19. If there truly is a problem with the 320's, I hope it's found and Sig is held responsible. Quote HistoryQuoted: People care because that is how you actually identify and root cause issues. If someone wrecks their car and claims the car just drove itself off the road, you don't just take their word for it. You inspect the car, and look for defects or problems that could cause that specific type of wreck. You also have to examine the driver, were they looking at their phone or had they been drinking...etc. Because it could be a mechanical problem, or it could be user error. Until one of the guns from the suits can be examined, or the failure can be recreated, you can't rule out human error. If you can't rule out human error, then you can't place the blame on the gun. At this point for all we know it could be a holster issue rather than a gun issue. I'm not a Sig fanboy, I do own a 320 but it's a range gun for me, my primary carry gun is a G19. If there truly is a problem with the 320's, I hope it's found and Sig is held responsible. That was one of my thoughts and why I was wondering about WML. WML holster tend to have more openings where objects/clothing could get inside the holster. The problem with the human error is the same human with the flaw to create the ND is also going to lie about creating the ND. Lying has to much upside and very little downside for the officer. Lying they get medical probably covered, they are not held responsible for their actions, and probably keep their job if they are not permanently disabled. Quoted: I’m trying to keep an open mind as much as possible, but I’m getting deja vu from back when the Glock platform was an up and coming. Many “experts” wrote analysis, testified in court about the “unsafe design” that was responsible for them going off by themselves, failures to fire, blowing up. There was just enough unicorns that were actual issues to give some credence to some of the literal bull shit claims. It’s also my recollection that Glock paid out on a lot of claims out of court instead of funding the lawsuit. I’ve personally witnessed two M17’s blow up from the unsupported part of the chamber, but I’ve never personally seen nor heard of one going off by itself. My sample/exposure is in the 100’s of government owned M17’s on military ranges. I am skeptical also but want to see how it pans out. I was skeptical at first of the dropgate till people started reduplicating it with consistency. Mechanically I believe the P320 is sound but I am not an expert on the pistol nor can I dream up every possible scenario where a possibility it has a mechanical flaw. I also remember the Glock "issues" but I was much younger and more willing to accept that what I was being told was the truth and they were shooting on their own. Now that I have way more firearms experience and knowledge I am always skeptical and having witnessed ND's by other people I know how easy it is for them to happen with careless people or how maybe a novice user could interpret their negligence for an accident. Two occasions where I witnessed a ND the first thing out of the person mouth was it went off on its own or it was an accident. One of them I was able to call the person on their statement and got to coach them on what they did wrong. Also remember the media will never hesitate to paint guns as dangerous and evil. |
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Posted: 7/21/2022 2:15:30 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve personally witnessed two M17’s blow up from the unsupported part of the chamber, but I’ve never personally seen nor heard of one going off by itself. My sample/exposure is in the 100’s of government owned M17’s on military ranges. What's your opinion on that? I'd think ammo issue? Guns without a fully supported chamber aren't exactly rare these days. Almost seems like engineers like the idea of sacrificing the gun rather than allowing over pressure ammo to continue building pressure and creating a "hand" grenade. By leaving some of the case unsupported you create a failure point prior to truly catastrophic pressure levels building up, no? I'm not a munitions guy |
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Posted: 7/22/2022 12:46:59 AM EDT
[#20]
320 fanboy here. Never had an issue with my Sig. I do, however have issues with Glocks. Mainly that they are square blocks and they are just not cool. Really though, most of the stories about the gun "just going off" have sounded completely ridiculous and do not make much sense. What is more likely is the fact that people just do not want to be police or military personnel anymore, for what I would say are obvious reasons, and so the people they do get into the forces are likely just unskilled labor. I have had many experiences with police just like that ??
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Posted: 7/22/2022 2:53:42 AM EDT
[#21]
So how many lawsuits are there against Sig for 320s firing while holstered? And how many lawsuits are there against all other firearms manufacturers for say the past 10 or 20 years for their handguns firing while holstered?
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Posted: 7/24/2022 9:39:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Guy on my Dept in full uniform (don’t know him, large agency) at a funeral for a slain officer.
Safariland holster for Glock 17 with Streamlight TRL. Keys on hook on belt mounted behind holster and winter jackets. Car key worked its way into holster due to open area accommodating weapon light As he sat down the key became a lever and pulled the trigger firing off a round. Nobody was struck but bizarre set of circumstances lined up... Lesson.... keep anything with the potential of causing an issue far from your gun. |
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Posted: 7/25/2022 10:12:24 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Guy on my Dept in full uniform (don’t know him, large agency) at a funeral for a slain officer. Safariland holster for Glock 17 with Streamlight TRL. Keys on hook on belt mounted behind holster and winter jackets. Car key worked its way into holster due to open area accommodating weapon light As he sat down the key became a lever and pulled the trigger firing off a round. Nobody was struck but bizarre set of circumstances lined up... Lesson.... keep anything with the potential of causing an issue far from your gun. Thanks for weighing in on this was something we discussed above but had no experience other than my own holsters . I reholster slow and if I feel resistance I stop I have a really good idea what a reholster feels like and if it feels weird I stop. I am also not a LEO so I am not chasing suspects drawing and reholstering in the heat of a moment wrestling someone to the ground or other LEO duties. I think we might be on to something with WML on pistol in a WML holster they do tend to open things up more. The newer lights coming out they are slimming the light down to reduce it's cross section to the same width as the pistol so the holster can be closed up more. I know my TLR-1 holsters are much more open than the TLR7 ones. |
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Posted: 7/25/2022 10:47:37 AM EDT
[#24]
They brought this up at the armorer's class as well, essentially saying they (Sig) are teaching students to reholster while watching themselves do it and looking for obstructions in the holster.
Brought up a good point about "before anybody says you should be looking around for threats while you reholster... if you aren't sure the area is safe, maybe don't reholster yet" Good point IMO |
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Posted: 7/25/2022 8:23:08 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are way too many unknown variables in that grainy ass video to conclusively say it's the pistol's fault. Right off the bat I see baggy jacket bunched up on top of the holster. That alone makes me dismiss a self firing pistol "like a hand grenade with the pin pulled" as the expert said. This, hoodie caught in holster. |
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Posted: 7/25/2022 9:50:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Guy on my Dept in full uniform (don’t know him, large agency) at a funeral for a slain officer. Safariland holster for Glock 17 with Streamlight TRL. Keys on hook on belt mounted behind holster and winter jackets. Car key worked its way into holster due to open area accommodating weapon light As he sat down the key became a lever and pulled the trigger firing off a round. Nobody was struck but bizarre set of circumstances lined up... Lesson.... keep anything with the potential of causing an issue far from your gun. Sounds like manual safeties might be a good idea after all. |
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Posted: 7/25/2022 11:46:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They brought this up at the armorer's class as well, essentially saying they (Sig) are teaching students to reholster while watching themselves do it and looking for obstructions in the holster. Brought up a good point about "before anybody says you should be looking around for threats while you reholster... if you aren't sure the area is safe, maybe don't reholster yet" Good point IMO I don't usually do it but a local Sheriff I shot years ago with advocated stepping your holster side leg/foot in a dainty sort of way so your hip and holster is pointing away from your leg/foot. Also completely irrelevant to a discussion about striker fired guns but when I holster exposed hammer pistols I place my thumb on the hammer. This stops the hammer from moving, tells me what condition the hammer is in, and forces me to break my grip slightly and refocus on holstering safely. |
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Posted: 7/27/2022 8:52:10 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is still a block that needs to move out of the way to allow the striker to impact the primer. Its effectively impossible unless there are simultaneous parts failures. Yup. It's the trigger bar that moves the striker block up/out of the way in most striker fired pistols. If the trigger isn't pulled the striker can slip off the sear but will hit the striker block (if that assembly is in the correct position) and not fire the chambered round. So either the trigger did get pulled (by something) or the striker block assembly is not functioning correctly and the striker slips off the sear. |
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Posted: 7/27/2022 10:24:21 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup. It's the trigger bar that moves the striker block up/out of the way in most striker fired pistols. If the trigger isn't pulled the striker can slip off the sear but will hit the striker block (if that assembly is in the correct position) and not fire the chambered round. So either the trigger did get pulled (by something) or the striker block assembly is not functioning correctly and the striker slips off the sear. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There is still a block that needs to move out of the way to allow the striker to impact the primer. Its effectively impossible unless there are simultaneous parts failures. Yup. It's the trigger bar that moves the striker block up/out of the way in most striker fired pistols. If the trigger isn't pulled the striker can slip off the sear but will hit the striker block (if that assembly is in the correct position) and not fire the chambered round. So either the trigger did get pulled (by something) or the striker block assembly is not functioning correctly and the striker slips off the sear. 2 separate mechanical failures happening at the same time, are very unlikely. I still think it comes back to the holster, most cops are carrying full size guns with larger weapon mounted lights that are wider than the gun. These lights typically force the holster to be wider, which creates room for objects to get into the holster. |
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Posted: 7/27/2022 11:11:13 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't have the video saved, you're more than welcome to go look for it if you want to see it but my guess if that you don't because you don't want to see what actually happened and get the reality check. The video is a uniformed officer with no jacket or anything like that that could get into the holster. These guns can fire unprovoked and it's becoming more and more documented. A striker gun in a Safariland duty holster going off is an issue. Back up your point or retract it. |
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Posted: 7/27/2022 3:41:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 2 separate mechanical failures happening at the same time, are very unlikely. I still think it comes back to the holster, most cops are carrying full size guns with larger weapon mounted lights that are wider than the gun. These lights typically force the holster to be wider, which creates room for objects to get into the holster. How often do Glock and M&Ps go off in the same types of holsters. It’s not as if the 320 is the only gun being carried in Safariland light holsters. |
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Posted: 7/27/2022 3:52:13 PM EDT
[#32]
That's a good point, never heard of any other make firing holstered.
As for the armorers course, glock or sig, the guys teaching are full of shit usually. Would take anything they say with a huge grain of salt. Ofcourse sig is gonna say their gun didn't fire itself. Did you really expect anything less? Lol |
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Posted: 7/27/2022 4:04:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How often do Glock and M&Ps go off in the same types of holsters. It’s not as if the 320 is the only gun being carried in Safariland light holsters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 2 separate mechanical failures happening at the same time, are very unlikely. I still think it comes back to the holster, most cops are carrying full size guns with larger weapon mounted lights that are wider than the gun. These lights typically force the holster to be wider, which creates room for objects to get into the holster. How often do Glock and M&Ps go off in the same types of holsters. It’s not as if the 320 is the only gun being carried in Safariland light holsters. Someone posted earlier in this thread about a G17 doing the same thing. I think Sig started the ball rolling on this with the drop safety issue, which was a legitimate issue. They created enough doubt about the safety of the gun, that anytime there is an ND it's easier for some people to try and blame the gun....and there's no shortage of lawyers willing to try and get a settlement. Until I can see the problem being intentionally replicated and shown what part or parts came from Sig out of spec enough to allow it to discharge without the trigger being pulled I'll remain skeptical. It didn't take long for people to intentionally replicate the drop safety issue when it came to light, I'm sure plenty of YouTube gun channels would love to be the first to show how a 320 can be fired without the trigger being pulled. |
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Posted: 7/27/2022 4:05:16 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a good point, never heard of any other make firing holstered. As for the armorers course, glock or sig, the guys teaching are full of shit usually. Would take anything they say with a huge grain of salt. Ofcourse sig is gonna say their gun didn't fire itself. Did you really expect anything less? Lol You should try reading your own thread, someone posted about a G17 firing in the holster. |
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Posted: 7/27/2022 5:21:04 PM EDT
[#35]
As I said in previous thread on this topic, someone should do a test of various striker fired guns in same model of light bearing holster to see if it's easier to get 320 to fire if an object or clothing gets down into holster vs. other striker fired guns. The lack of trigger safety on 320 would mean object would only have to catch on edge of trigger to pull it, but someone would have to do some tests to see how much difference this really makes.
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Posted: 7/28/2022 7:27:52 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How often do Glock and M&Ps go off in the same types of holsters. It's not as if the 320 is the only gun being carried in Safariland light holsters. |
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Posted: 7/28/2022 3:54:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You should try reading your own thread, someone posted about a G17 firing in the holster. You should try not being a dick, way to add to the conversation. Go stand in the corner while the men talk boy. |
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Posted: 7/28/2022 4:39:54 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You should try not being a dick, way to add to the conversation. Go stand in the corner while the men talk boy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You should try reading your own thread, someone posted about a G17 firing in the holster. You should try not being a dick, way to add to the conversation. Go stand in the corner while the men talk boy. Lol....wasn't trying to be a dick but someone literally posted in your thread about a G17 firing in the holster and you said you'd never heard of it. Sorry your feelings got hurt. |
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Posted: 7/28/2022 9:51:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As I said in previous thread on this topic, someone should do a test of various striker fired guns in same model of light bearing holster to see if it's easier to get 320 to fire if an object or clothing gets down into holster vs. other striker fired guns. The lack of trigger safety on 320 would mean object would only have to catch on edge of trigger to pull it, but someone would have to do some tests to see how much difference this really makes. I wonder what the exact reasoning and justification was for Glock's trigger safety. It's not going to stop someone who pulls the trigger from firing the gun like a manual safety. The trigger shoe of a dropped gun probably doesn't have enough weight and inertia to move itself back. I could see it possibly stopping a foreign object from preventing in limited circumstances but I could also see it failing to do so just as often. I would also be interested in seeing it tested. |
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Posted: 7/28/2022 10:09:07 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder what the exact reasoning and justification was for Glock's trigger safety. It's not going to stop someone who pulls the trigger from firing the gun like a manual safety. The trigger shoe of a dropped gun probably doesn't have enough weight and inertia to move itself back. I could see it possibly stopping a foreign object from preventing in limited circumstances but I could also see it failing to do so just as often. I would also be interested in seeing it tested. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As I said in previous thread on this topic, someone should do a test of various striker fired guns in same model of light bearing holster to see if it's easier to get 320 to fire if an object or clothing gets down into holster vs. other striker fired guns. The lack of trigger safety on 320 would mean object would only have to catch on edge of trigger to pull it, but someone would have to do some tests to see how much difference this really makes. I wonder what the exact reasoning and justification was for Glock's trigger safety. It's not going to stop someone who pulls the trigger from firing the gun like a manual safety. The trigger shoe of a dropped gun probably doesn't have enough weight and inertia to move itself back. I could see it possibly stopping a foreign object from preventing in limited circumstances but I could also see it failing to do so just as often. I would also be interested in seeing it tested. Inertial drop safety. |
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Posted: 7/28/2022 10:42:10 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Inertial drop safety. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: As I said in previous thread on this topic, someone should do a test of various striker fired guns in same model of light bearing holster to see if it's easier to get 320 to fire if an object or clothing gets down into holster vs. other striker fired guns. The lack of trigger safety on 320 would mean object would only have to catch on edge of trigger to pull it, but someone would have to do some tests to see how much difference this really makes. I wonder what the exact reasoning and justification was for Glock's trigger safety. It's not going to stop someone who pulls the trigger from firing the gun like a manual safety. The trigger shoe of a dropped gun probably doesn't have enough weight and inertia to move itself back. I could see it possibly stopping a foreign object from preventing in limited circumstances but I could also see it failing to do so just as often. I would also be interested in seeing it tested. Inertial drop safety. For the intertia of the trigger shoe itself? |
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Posted: 7/28/2022 10:53:59 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder what the exact reasoning and justification was for Glock's trigger safety. It's not going to stop someone who pulls the trigger from firing the gun like a manual safety. The trigger shoe of a dropped gun probably doesn't have enough weight and inertia to move itself back. I could see it possibly stopping a foreign object from preventing in limited circumstances but I could also see it failing to do so just as often. I would also be interested in seeing it tested. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As I said in previous thread on this topic, someone should do a test of various striker fired guns in same model of light bearing holster to see if it's easier to get 320 to fire if an object or clothing gets down into holster vs. other striker fired guns. The lack of trigger safety on 320 would mean object would only have to catch on edge of trigger to pull it, but someone would have to do some tests to see how much difference this really makes. I wonder what the exact reasoning and justification was for Glock's trigger safety. It's not going to stop someone who pulls the trigger from firing the gun like a manual safety. The trigger shoe of a dropped gun probably doesn't have enough weight and inertia to move itself back. I could see it possibly stopping a foreign object from preventing in limited circumstances but I could also see it failing to do so just as often. I would also be interested in seeing it tested. It is to both prevent trigger from being pulled by foreign object that catches the edge of the trigger, and a drop safety. If the 320 had a trigger safety it wouldn't have had that initial drop safety issue and they wouldn't have had to do the  https://us.glock.com/en/LEARN/GLOCK-Pistols/Safe-Action-System |
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Posted: 7/28/2022 11:10:09 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is to both prevent trigger from being pulled by foreign object that catches the edge of the trigger, and a drop safety. If the 320 had a trigger safety it wouldn't have had that initial drop safety issue and they wouldn't have had to do the https://us.glock.com/en/LEARN/GLOCK-Pistols/Safe-Action-System Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: As I said in previous thread on this topic, someone should do a test of various striker fired guns in same model of light bearing holster to see if it's easier to get 320 to fire if an object or clothing gets down into holster vs. other striker fired guns. The lack of trigger safety on 320 would mean object would only have to catch on edge of trigger to pull it, but someone would have to do some tests to see how much difference this really makes. I wonder what the exact reasoning and justification was for Glock's trigger safety. It's not going to stop someone who pulls the trigger from firing the gun like a manual safety. The trigger shoe of a dropped gun probably doesn't have enough weight and inertia to move itself back. I could see it possibly stopping a foreign object from preventing in limited circumstances but I could also see it failing to do so just as often. I would also be interested in seeing it tested. It is to both prevent trigger from being pulled by foreign object that catches the edge of the trigger, and a drop safety. If the 320 had a trigger safety it wouldn't have had that initial drop safety issue and they wouldn't have had to do the https://us.glock.com/en/LEARN/GLOCK-Pistols/Safe-Action-System It is a proven design that has been unchanged for decades so I guess I shouldn't question it. It just seems really quirky to me. |
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Posted: 7/29/2022 8:02:35 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol....wasn't trying to be a dick but someone literally posted in your thread about a G17 firing in the holster and you said you'd never heard of it. Sorry your feelings got hurt. Add to the conversation and don't be a twat, real simple. |
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Posted: 7/29/2022 8:04:23 PM EDT
[#45]
Light bearing holsters mentioned earlier seem like the best answer at this point. Would be nice if we knew if all the guns were in a LB holster.
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Posted: 7/29/2022 8:08:32 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Add to the conversation and don't be a twat, real simple. 
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Posted: 7/29/2022 8:11:02 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Add to the conversation and don't be a twat, real simple.  Nick |
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Posted: 7/29/2022 8:54:17 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is tech, not GD, guys. Nick Check OP’s next post on page one…everyone else including me have actually been discussing the topic. |
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Posted: 7/29/2022 10:10:25 PM EDT
[#49]
Laredo Tx PD has the same issues with their P320 discharging in the holster. I have personally meet two individuals that have had AD with holstered.
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Posted: 7/30/2022 7:19:32 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Laredo Tx PD has the same issues with their P320 discharging in the holster. I have personally meet two individuals that have had AD with holstered. Interesting ,any report/articles or links? |
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