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Posted: 8/15/2002 5:42:57 PM EDT
I finally decided I need to purchase a handgun before things get worse here in Kali. I was at a local pistol range looking at all their cool pistols. I'm looking at something that be fairly easy to conceal and have enough punch (even though I know SHOT PLACEMENT is the key, i guess it's just a psych factor).

With this in mind, I was looking at at GLOCK .23 (.40 cal) and at a SPRINGFIELD COMPACT LIGHTWEIGHT .45. The only qualms i have with the SPRINGFIELD is that it only holds 6 rounds. The GLOCK on the other hand holds 10 nice .40 rounds. I just seem to feel better knowing i have 10 instead of just 6 shots. But I am partial to the .45. I've always wanted a slabside and since COLT has been selling their generic versions of the .45 (I really hate their new pistols. Nothing like the series 80 pistols of old), I think a SPRINGFIELD will do just nicely.

So, basically since I don't have a bunch of money and I don't want to make a costly mistake, I am appealing to those individuals who have extensive carry experience who would like to share their thoughts on my gun choices. thanks.

Link Posted: 8/15/2002 6:21:03 PM EDT
You could look at the Wilson KZ Compact. It has 9rd. capacity. Wilson is known for extravagant prices, but the KZ compact is relatively cheap.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 3:21:39 AM EDT
I would suggest that you need to start by shooting as many pistols as possible. There aren't very many BAD choices out there, almost all of the guns being made today are pretty good. But how a particular make feels to you, how easy it is to access the different features will vary greatly between individuals. What I love, you might hate.

If you like the 45acp, then there is a wide selection. Virtually every maker has atleast one 45acp in their lineup. Singlestack 45acps will be slimmer and more easy to conceal, the wide-bodies (double stack mags holding up to ten rounds if new, as many as 14 rounds in used ones) are there if you want more rounds per mag.

Some 45acps that you should look at are:

SiG 220 and 245
Para Ordinance
Springfield
Kimber
Smith & Wesson

Get the pistol that feels best and that you shoot most accurately. Don't worry too much about how many rounds it holds. A second mag will solve that problem.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 7:59:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2002 8:00:18 AM EDT by urbankaos04]
Actually, out of the limited number of pistols I've shot, the venerable Browing Hi-Power shoots the best for me. But this pistol, from what I think I know, is only offered in a large frame model, right? To tell you the truth, I'm eagerly awaiting the Browning Hi-Power Practical to become "legal" for sale in California. But, like I said, it would seem to be to "big" for concealed carry. This is why I was looking at these other two pistols; they're more compact and seem easier to conceal.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 11:57:17 AM EDT
Actually, the HiPower is very thin and that is one of the biggest issues in concealment. If you like the look and feel of the HiPower, and if you are comfortable with C&L carry, I'd suggest that you go for it. the HiPower gives you a very accurate, very slim pistol but with large capacity, inexpensive and readily available hicap mags. It is far easier to conceal than many think and I carry one very often.

Barrel length is really not as impoortant when concealing a gun as thickness and there simply aren't many pistols that are thinner than the HP.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 12:02:51 PM EDT
Have you considered the Kimber Ultra Ten II? It is a polymer frame that holds 10rds, double stack, 1911 style. It MAY needs some gunsmithing to function 100%...I know folks who have had to have theirs worked on a little bit. Very compact, very small, 100% reliable with factory ammo (after some gunsmithing).

Someone has already stated some wise advice:
shoot as many as you can & decide which will work for you for what you intend to use it for.

See:
www.kimberamerica.com/ten.htm

Link Posted: 8/16/2002 12:14:12 PM EDT
I also like Wilsons, so much I became a master dealer. But, my nephew recently got a Springfield XD in .40. He like it a lot and he's gotten very good with it. Very reasonably priced also. I also like HKs. My alternate carry is a USP.45 Compact. My regular is a Wilson Protector Compact, now replaced by the CQB. I agree, shoot as many handguns as you can in your price range and pic what feel best in YOUR hands. Guns are like cars and women, we all have different tastes.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 12:15:13 PM EDT
SIG p200 .45
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 12:23:58 PM EDT
both are good choices. it all comes down to what YOU like. if you can, rent and shoot them both side by side. i love my Komber Ultra CDP. you can get two spare magazines for the 1911.

it comes down to how much will you practice.
the more you practice the more i would go with the 1911.

good luck and keep it safe.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 12:49:30 PM EDT
My close friend and uncle recently shot a Gold Match and a KZ-45. He said he wouldn't trade his Sig P220 for either one. I must say I like his Sig as well.
However, for concealment purposes I wouldn't argue with the Glock suggestion either. I do like their trigger saftey concept that Springfield recently ripped off.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 12:52:39 PM EDT
I guess I'm going to have to go the The Range again and rent some of their pistols to get a feel for which will be best for me.

I was kinda thinking about a commander sized Para-Ordnance, but I don't know how bulky this thing will be. I think it holds ten in the mag. But last time I picked up a Para all the controls were extremely stiff; I had to use two hands to get the slide release to work!! I'm sure that this particualar pistol was not indicative of all Para pistols, but it did leave a lasting impression.

BTW, my buddy has a Kimber CDP. We took it out to the range and I was immediately impressed. Felt smooth as butter. Then he told me how much it cost....wow! But I guess you get what you pay for. Nice shootin' pistol.

Thanks for all the input, fellas.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 7:46:55 PM EDT
If you want a really concealable piece, check out the Kel-Tec P-11 9mm. It offers a 10 round (+ 1 in the pipe) in a very small package. Pretty nice little pistols and have become rather popular.

If you want a larger pistol but something not too big, the Glock 19/23, Sig Sauer P229 or Smith and Wesson 5906/4006 may be worth looking at.
Link Posted: 8/16/2002 8:06:50 PM EDT
If this is going to be your first handgun, I'm going to assume that you are not an experienced shooter. I am also going to infer from your post that you intend to use this weapon for self protection.

I would recommend a revolver. The small frame Ruger, Smith or Tarus should fit the bill. I know that the semi-auto's are cool, but the revolver gives you the ability to learn the basics without alot of mechanical manipulation.

Please don't take this the wrong way, as I'm not trying to insult you, but I have seen some very experienced shooters stare at their guns when they jam. If I were going to own but one handgun for self defense it would be a revolver. They conceal easily, have sufficient power, and are dependable. I carried a Ruger SP-101 .357 loaded with .38 +P hollowpoints for years and never felt under gunned.
Link Posted: 8/17/2002 4:12:36 AM EDT
Like everyone else I suggest you try shooting some of the guns you are interested in first. I shot a G23 at a local rent it range before buying one. Once I shot it I knew I was going to have one and really liked it. I sold that one to a friend and now think often about replacing it. I own a Kimber Custom and it is a superb firearm as well. Sean
Link Posted: 8/17/2002 6:11:00 AM EDT
Rabbit makes a very good point. You just might want to think about a revolver for several reasons.

First, for a given barrel length, a revolver will be more accurate than a semi-automatic. Revolvers are less prone to jams or malfunctions. They don't care which brand of ammo you have, if it fits in the cylinder it will go band. The manual of arms for a revolver is simple.

Most of all, the lessons that are learned when shooting a revolver will make you a better shooter when you get a semi-automatic. That is, if you don't fall in love with the wheelguns and stick with them.

And please don't feel that we're talking down to you or poking fun. When I feel a serious need for protection I don't look to my SiGs, HS2000, Walthers, Stars, etc; I grab one of my S&W wheelguns. IMHO, they are still the best handguns out there.


Link Posted: 8/17/2002 6:20:20 AM EDT
Love my 23. Its relatively compact, incredibly reliable, quite accurate, practically indestructible and holds 13 rounds of .40- what more could you want.

Link Posted: 8/17/2002 3:03:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2002 3:09:32 PM EDT by urbankaos04]

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:
If this is going to be your first handgun, I'm going to assume that you are not an experienced shooter. I am also going to infer from your post that you intend to use this weapon for self protection.

I would recommend a revolver. The small frame Ruger, Smith or Tarus should fit the bill. I know that the semi-auto's are cool, but the revolver gives you the ability to learn the basics without alot of mechanical manipulation.

Please don't take this the wrong way, as I'm not trying to insult you, but I have seen some very experienced shooters stare at their guns when they jam. If I were going to own but one handgun for self defense it would be a revolver. They conceal easily, have sufficient power, and are dependable. I carried a Ruger SP-101 .357 loaded with .38 +P hollowpoints for years and never felt under gunned.



LOL! Yes, this will be my first handgun purchase, but I have had a lot of experience shooting via my friends and time at the range.
Thanks for the advice, though.

I have narrowed my selection down to these three: SPRINGFIELD ARMORY COMPACT LIGHTWEIGHT .45 (4" BARREL ON A SMALLER SIZED FRAME--PROBABLY COLT OFFICER SIZED FRAME), SIG SAUER .40 (NOT THE SIG PRO), AND THE VENERABLE BROWNING HI-POWER IN .40--HIGH POWER PRACTICAL TO BE EXACT, WHENEVER IT GET CLEARED FOR CALI, WHICH I HAVE BEEN TOLD WILL BE SEPT OR OCT.

I was thinking about a Commander sized Para, but the guys told me that they have heard a lot of people having problems with the Paras, so I just decdided to drop this one altogether. What do you guys think?

So, I guess all that is left to shoot these pistols to see which shoots best for me....
Link Posted: 8/17/2002 5:39:34 PM EDT
Alright, since you've narrowed it down, my recommendation would be the SIG P229 in .40cal. This is what I believe to be one of the best combat handguns ever made. It won me many matches and was my daily carry gun for several years.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 8/17/2002 5:59:35 PM EDT
I had a springfield compact & the feed ramp was so short it did not lika hollow points at all,jammed at least once per clip but it ran like a champ with ball nose ammo.I later found out this is typical with all compact 1911 style autos,this was my carry gun & i prefer hp ammo so i sold it and got a GLOCK mdl. 30 i love it.If you dont mind carrying ball nose or having that ramp smithed the springfield is awesome!
Link Posted: 8/17/2002 6:18:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2002 2:21:30 AM EDT
Highpower is a TACK DRIVER. I ccw mine alot and do just fine. Accuracy is awsome, 3 inch grps @25yds are the norm with my HP.
Link Posted: 8/24/2002 3:14:47 AM EDT
First handgun should be a revolver. There are way too many "accidental"discharges with semi's. Have you ever seen the drums of sand that police officers use to load or unload their semi's? These people carry guns just about every waking moment and still have "accidents". Start with a S&W Model 64 or 65. There' stainless steel and if you check SG news, you can get your local FFL holder to order a used police trade in for around 200-250$. Plus you get a .357 caliber, one of the best man stoppers there is and you can practice with .38 ammo until you get used to the gun or for fun shooting. But, keep .357 in it for self defense. I have bought several of these revolvers and they have excellent trigger pull in single or double action. A 4" barrel is the best for me.
Link Posted: 8/26/2002 7:40:44 AM EDT
I'll chime in on the revolver recommendation. A nice .357 with six or seven shots is going to be more than enough firepower. You can put .38 Special in it for cheap practice and load up with full .357 for evening work. You can fire any shape bullet that you like without fear of jamming. Cleaning is easy. These guns are safe and simple to use.

California residents can't buy high-cap (normal cap) magazines.
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 2:10:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2002 2:11:58 PM EDT by Cazador223]
Shop around and find one that fits you hand comfortably and then buy it in the largest caliber that you can shoot accuratly.

Tom
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 2:25:00 PM EDT
.45 Sig P220 or P245
HK USP45
Ruger P90 or P97

9mm Sig P228, P226, P229
HK USP9
Ruger P89, P93, P94, or P95

.40 Sig P229 or P226
HK USP40
Ruger P944 or P91 (used, as they are no
longer produced, but nice gun anyway)

Shameless plug. Go to the Handguns for sale forum, I am advertising a P89 with night sights, Hogue grips, and hicaps and a KP91 stainless with night sights, Hogue grips, and a bunch of magazines.
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 3:59:20 PM EDT
I've got a Sig P228, and while it's a nice gun, I have never been fond of the first DA shot followed by the SA shots. I prefer being able to carry condition one, cocked and locked. That's why I either cary a 1911 or an HK. I know Sig owners love their guns, and they are very well made. And the "dot the eye" sights are fantastic. I just can't get past that 1st DA shot. It's just how you train I guess.
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 7:43:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By az_larry:
I've got a Sig P228, and while it's a nice gun, I have never been fond of the first DA shot followed by the SA shots. I prefer being able to carry condition one, cocked and locked. That's why I either cary a 1911 or an HK. I know Sig owners love their guns, and they are very well made. And the "dot the eye" sights are fantastic. I just can't get past that 1st DA shot. It's just how you train I guess.

Well, just learn to cock the Sig as you draw it.
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 8:25:44 PM EDT
If it's your first handgun, then I'd recommend either a .380 or a 9mm. I'd go so far as to say the Beretta 92FS is a very safe choice. Good trigger, decent accuracy and will cycle lots and lots of dubious (i.e. cheap) rounds.

It's not going to be the most accurate handgun you'll ever have but I've gotten pretty good with mine (still stock!) ... 4" groups at 25 yards ... cold!

I've since superceded, er, added to the family a few others (Kimber, Glock) but while the newer additions are more accurate, the 92FS remains the most comfortable to cycle hundreds of rounds at one sitting.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 11:34:47 PM EDT
I am a person of small stature and I have owned many pistols. I would suggest only what I now own and what I dont own. I carry both a Kahr K9 9mm and a colt officers model 45 that I had "melted down" by clark custom. I shot IDPA and carried both in myrtle beach (3yrs). One common thing between them is the holster. I use an alessi MOB talon made for each one. I can wear a tshirt and shorts and you cant see either one. I admit the colt is pretty friggin sweet!!! and I highly recommend the meltdown and the holster. Well my wife is awake and I must goto bed. sincerely gidds45
Link Posted: 9/11/2002 4:53:15 PM EDT
I have a SA ultra compact and a walther P99 .40 that i use for ccw.

9 times out of 10 its the p99 on my side. I grew up shooting 1911's and trully prefer them over almost anything else. The p99 conceals as well as the Springfield, has higher capacity, less recoil, and is extreamly accurate. My only complaint is it doesn't come in .45.

If you have not fired one look into it. Hicap beretta 92 mags will fit with very minor modifications. I see used ones here in the 4-500.00 range. If you go this route Buy the walther. DO NOT buy the S&W version.

mike
Link Posted: 9/11/2002 10:10:01 PM EDT
urbankaos04

Look bud there are many fine pistols out there in all ranges of prices. There are also as many opinions on what the best firearm is, do yourself a favor and find a good range that rents pistols and rent some. Simply find one that is comfortable, and that shots well. Do not worry about caliber, anything modern will work as well as another. Remember there are many opinions as there are a$$'$, so you in the end will have to find what works for you.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 11:32:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2002 11:35:45 AM EDT by jdxb4]

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:
I would recommend a revolver. The small frame Ruger, Smith or Tarus should fit the bill. I know that the semi-auto's are cool, but the revolver gives you the ability to learn the basics without alot of mechanical manipulation.

...If I were going to own but one handgun for self defense it would be a revolver. They conceal easily, have sufficient power, and are dependable. I carried a Ruger SP-101 .357 loaded with .38 +P hollowpoints for years and never felt under gunned.



I'll second that motion. My first is a Ruger SP-101 in .357 Magnum, and I carry Federal HydraShok in .357 Magnum. I thought it was the most simple, powerful, strong, reliable, low-maintenance, multi-purpose firearm out there. I also like being able to fire two calibers out of it. I find it light enough for carry, simple to maintain, and easy enough to operate in a high pressure situation. (Even the yet-untrained wife could use it successfully in a pinch.) The low hassle factor and the extra weight (compared to the exotic metals, e.g. Scandium) makes it much easier on the hands when practicing, and I am therefore more likely to look forward to more practice. No worries about failure-to-feed, failure-to-eject, "slide bite", safeties, racking the slide, etc. Literally, "point-and-shoot!"
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 1:51:33 PM EDT
Either of the pistols you mentioned can get the job done as long as you do your part. So can lots of others. We all have our opinions as to what we like / prefer and why, but serious handgunners who pick a sidearm for serious purposes DO agree on several things:

Reliability...absolutely must work first time, every time. This is a function of weapon, ammo, and the person handling the gun, not just the firearm alone. This is as true with revolvers as with autos, but with a revolver, problems are more likely to be mechanical while the auto is more ammo and user dependant.

Quality...everyone has a budget, but if you put your $$$ into a good, basic platform, you can add gingerbread later if you decide you can't live without it. Try for too much gingerbread at a less than top dollar price, and something must suffer...too often it is quality.

Simple...under the stress of a real encounter, you do not need to have to remember if you have the gun chamber-loaded or not, dingus up or down, magazine in all the way, little infernal locking mechanism disabled or not, blah, blah. Point gun, pull trigger. The 1911 safety is not that difficult to learn, but will you REALLY train yourself to do it every time without concious thought, or not? If so, fine, if not, get something else.

Good holster/belt...absolutely mandatory if you carry.

Training...the most important aspect! Remember, WHAT is in your hand is not nearly as important as what you DO with it.

Good luck!
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 4:21:00 PM EDT
G23!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 4:21:45 PM EDT
Ahh…. I remember when I was asking the very same thing back in 84 when I had first got my Concealed carry permit. For what it's worth this is just my two cents.
You may be going about this backwards. This should help negate some of your choices.

Is the weapon dual purpose? i.e. the range and CC or just CC

If it's just CC with some practice at the range then…

1. How do you prefer to carry? Inside the pants, Ankle, looped on a belt, SMB, shoulder rig, do you prefer a holster snap or not?
2. What are the weather conditions like were you reside/carry? , Can you accommodate the way you carry the weapon? i.e. do you wear a suit while carrying or , tuck in your shirt? Wear shorts most of the time? Etc…
3. Do you care to do allot of maintenance for this carry gun (s/s or blue)
4. Do you believe in manual safety levers or do you practice when drawing to drop em
5. Do you feel confident with cocked and locked (single actions)

These questions should help rule out a few of your choices.

Thus far Glocks & hammer less wheel guns fit this bill for good concealment weapons. That's if you want do draw and not snag it on some article of clothing or be finger F&(%* a safety when the S*! # hit's the fan. (Been there, done that, got the T-shirt)
I carry 12 hours a day and can choose from ten autos and one revolver from my safe. My autos range in size & weight… (1911-Glock17, 19 -BHP) to small (Glock33 - PPK - Baby Browning) just mention a few. After all's said and done believe it or not I choose the revolver… a simple S&W bodyguard air weight. But heck that's just me. I hope some of this helps in narrowing down your search.

Mike




Link Posted: 9/27/2002 2:00:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2002 2:06:03 PM EDT by urbankaos04]

Originally Posted By MMarino:
Ahh…. I remember when I was asking the very same thing back in 84 when I had first got my Concealed carry permit. For what it's worth this is just my two cents.
You may be going about this backwards. This should help negate some of your choices.

Is the weapon dual purpose? i.e. the range and CC or just CC

If it's just CC with some practice at the range then…

1. How do you prefer to carry? Inside the pants, Ankle, looped on a belt, SMB, shoulder rig, do you prefer a holster snap or not?
2. What are the weather conditions like were you reside/carry? , Can you accommodate the way you carry the weapon? i.e. do you wear a suit while carrying or , tuck in your shirt? Wear shorts most of the time? Etc…
3. Do you care to do allot of maintenance for this carry gun (s/s or blue)
4. Do you believe in manual safety levers or do you practice when drawing to drop em
5. Do you feel confident with cocked and locked (single actions)

Mike





Thanks for the input, Mike; It's much appreciated.

Yes, this gun will be intended primarily for concealed carry duty. I want something that is relatively light, small (but not so small it's uncomfortable to shoot), and in a decent caliber.

With this in mind, I came across what seems to be the perfect gun. In the recent issue of Guns and Weapons for L.E., there was an article on the new Beretta 9000S. It seems like a great pistol; small, light and chambered for .40. I'm definitely going to check this gun out.

It comes in either a Double/Single or Double action only configuration. I'm interested in the Double/Single model.

My other pick would definitely be the Kimber CDP II (I guess I'll have to put in a couple of extra OT's in a work!). My buddy, who's an TAC Officer at out juvenile boot camp, has one (the first CDP) and it shoots great! But the price tag is a bit daunting.

I eventually do want to get a commander-sized .45 in the futute (when money permits) and it would be nice to have my CC gun chambered for the same caliber. I'd pefer to have both guns be the same caliber, just to keep it simple.

Well, thanks for all the input, fellas. It's mcuh appreciated.
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