Let’s just say it’s not a round for the beginning reloader. The cases have a coating on them to facilitate feeding from the P90 magazine and case volume is ridiculously small, making charge weight variations often unforgiving.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/-22-TCM9R-and-TCM-glock-Lots-of-great-info-added-/13-184906/&page=10#i2208107

A shortened .22 TCM running 35 grainers, fitting in standard 9x19mm length mags...

Amusing to realize we're back in 6.5 vs 6.8 all over again...

@garred8787

Not direct from FFL or manufacturer to Civilians, but civilians can own/use/buy/sell AP ammo. Typically bought second/third hand. You can buy SS190 all day long on Gunbroker, if you want to pay $200/50+ for it.

Solution, but one of the copper solids I've been testing for quite some time. They are copper and not defined on a federal level as AP. (AP definition is by construction not what it can or can't penetrate). Since they are pointy, small, and fast, they will poke everything just as well as SS190, except when you get into thicker UHMWPE or steel IIIA (which is pretty rare)

What's the longest bullet he'll be able to run without sacrificing case capacity/velocity?

This is not from the Vmax, but a 40gr bullet I had custom loaded by Elite for testing. Need to work on the video, but you hit spot on with expansion diameters. Out of the p90 this bullet fragged hard, and penetrated shallow:

MK2 Shot 1Weight: 33.8gr
length: .300"
Min: .280"
Max: .381"
Avg: .330"

MK2 Shot 2
Weight: 36.2gr
length: .272"
Min: .307"
Max: .404"
Avg: .355"

My channel is called The Wound Channel you can search it easily on YouTube.

Also I posted this already in the thread:

R-SERIES: 5.7x28mm DUTY/CARRY [R37.F]
37gr Fragmenting Copper HP

CNC Machined Pure Monolithic Copper 99.5%

Projectile Behavior:

Violently expanding/fragmenting tip with deep penetrating base. Base penetration 15-17in & petal penetration 5-7in in ballistic gel + 4 layers of denim.

Ballistics:

PS90:  2,505fps
P90:   2,392fps  
FsN:   2,141fps

That's over 2100 from a handgun and I have shot that stuff in gel, it's for real.



Also I could care less about 100 year old magazines.  And that .gif cuts off for some reason, but the base of the bullet exits the block.

Just the fragmenting so far. I'd be glad to test both if I had them, I have none left.

It's worked fine for me...  When you already have dozens of other handguns in 9mm, .40, 10mm, .45acp, etc... what's the point in buying another flavor of the month.  Just because the .mil hasn't adopted it doesn't mean squat.  Look how many times they've claimed they're replacing the M4...  The military is resistant to change through and through...

I have said it before.

The 5.7x28 and 22tcm for me are ideal for what I want.

A fast flat trajectory round with minimal recoil this I can shoot out to 100 yards.  It would be the ideal truck gun that could be used from coyotes to personnel protection.

My ideal pistol would be a maxim 9 integrally suppressed pistol with a rmr on it.

Keep thinking maybe a 22tcmR barrel could be made for maxim 9

Not sure why I didn't get the mention notification on this thread.

With the .860" case I can run bullets that have a ~.300 nose length (from the start of the ogive) and bullets up to about .600" seem to not impact velocity too bad according to QL. Weight obviously does play a role on velocity. A 40gr FBHP estimates 2100 ft/sec, the 34gr pictured estimates 2300, 30's 2450, and a long 25gr (.600" reeds custom ammo) 2550. These are all calculated off 55k psi from a 5.2" barrel. Dropping to 9mm +p+ pressures drops about 100 ft/sec across the board.

I'm going to load up some more ammo this evening to work the load up to at least the 9mm +p+ threshold and hope to shoot them tomorrow.

Just read through buffman's links and thought this to be very interesting.

"It was decided that wound channel
dimensions would be more accurate and realistic in Phase 4/5 in actual tissue
where exact measurements could be made and tissue dissection could verify
tumbling and overall damage. The Phase 4/5 results were extremely surprising
and much extra testing was done as many agencies wanted to be present for
comparisons to more traditional rounds. Measurements taken on over 100 shots
verified that wound channels through tissue with or without barriers equaled or
exceeded that of hollow points in all calibers! There was a solid copper round
that produced larger average wound dimensions. As previously mentioned
rounds over 2,000 fps can create stretches that exceed the body’s limits."

I've always wanted to try the 22lr to bullet swaging.

Just ran across this


Talked to the guy who makes the swaging dies. he stated the picture shown was completely full of lead and weighs 40gr but you could put less core in it and reduce the weight. he also stated if you wanted to trim jackets (this is made from a 22 short case) you could shortened the bullet till it had very little bearing surface and a bullet of about 20gr could easily be made.

May try my hand at making my own dies lol

Somehow I've never run across those tests. Fascinating info, thanks for posting it.

I am not too familiar with 22 TCM or the modifications you've made, but isn't the 22 TCM's operating pressure like 40K PSI?

Yes that is correct.

Cut and dry version 22 TCM has a 1.025" case and only 1 bullet 1 load. My case is .860" and allows up to .300" nose length bullets to be run.

Extended version:

The 22 TCM is also a .223 parent case however they made theirs thinner at the base/web likely for more case capacity but a byproduct is it does have the lower operating pressure. It was developed to work in the 1911 with a COAL of 1.275". Later armscor made an abortion of a bullet to make it fit in 9mm weapons like the glock, their own polypistol they made and something else that is slipping my mind. The case length of the TCM is 1.025" max mag length is ~1.165" so the bullet just barely protruded from the case and that bullet seldom comes for sale on the market so it leaves you with almost no option to reload and only 1 supplier and 1 load to keep your gun fed.....uhh no thank you!

As for my round it's actually a spin off of a PDW cartridge I designed based of yet another wildcat. The .223 short is a wildcat designed by a gentleman named Brian Lewis I played with it too for a while. He made a 1.125" case that still had the same .223 neck/shoulder dimensions which lead to alot of case taper. It's still a impressive little cartridge but I wanted to put it into an AR and it wasn't playing friendly in mags (think of the AK's 7.62x39 and why it needs "banana" shaped mags due to the case taper)

the initial .935" case I made to show backbencher, a 22 Mamba case and .223 short case

22 Mamba with a 55gr and 90gr bullet next to a .223 round (90gr was seated long for fun it won't chamber at that length but I do plan to try sub/super operation with it like 300blk)

So I consulted with Brian and bounced idea's around. I told him we should "Ackley Improve the case" but with the trend of accuracy and gas flow gained by a 30' shoulder (look at basically all your new cartridges and you'll see this, the lapua's, creedmoors, valkyrie, ect...)

Improving the case would do 2 things 1 it would take most of the case taper away which would lend itself to better feeding and increase capacity, we also decided to blow the shoulder forward .025" making the neck slightly shorter for more capacity, changed the shoulder to the 30' mentioned and lastly I had the throat changed to the dimensions of a .223 wylde. This would allow for 5.56 operating pressures as well as allow a broader selection of bullets (ie. longer) And The 22 Mamba was Born. Brian ponied up and purchased both the chamber and die reamers and I later traded labor in return to reimburse him for the investment.

On my first attempt to make a FL sizing die things went wonky and I ended up parting off the boo boo and started over. well that boo boo so happened to still work well enough to form cases. and being that it was short I could adjust it to my hearts desire. So Backbencher had expressed interest of a 22 caliber pistol cartridge that took normal bullets. I jokingly made a dummy using that stubby die that used armscor's 40gr jhp from the TCM. Knowing I didn't have the equipment to do the lockwork on the barrel to make one the idea faded away.

A few months ago JoshAston showed a picture of a barrel liner installed into the breach block of a cut up 9mm barrel in the 22 TCM glock thread. I was like holy shit could it be that simple!!! So I started to toy with the idea again and my initial case length was .935" which would allow a handful of bullets to fit. I wanted more than 3-5 bullets to work with so I decided to make a shorter case I played with some old hornet bullets I had laying around and noticed there was a decent selection of bullets that had nose lengths of ~.250-.300"

So I did the math and decided on a .860" case. I also figured I didn't need the entire .179" of neck length and I would want to keep as much case capacity as possible so decided on a neck length of .150" I carefully pushed the shoulder back on a case until I had .150" of neck length. After trying to seat a bullet I discovered the neck was far too thick down this far in the case and that I'd have to ream them. I made a quick jig to test the theory and it worked. It makes short work of lopping off the excess neck and reaming necks.

Now I had a cute little round that actually looked like it was going to work. Measured H2o capacity and fired up quickload. was very impressed with the #'s I seen and decided.. It is time! I had a spare no name barrel that came with my 34 slide and a piece of blank left over from my SBR barrel I built. so I stubbed the breach block from the 9mm barrel with the 22 blank, chambered, contoured, threaded, ect.. and here we are.

Not too shabby

Whish all these youtube videos used organic gel. Clear gel is a bane on all of us.

My observation with 5.7 rounds has been sometimes it penetrated and in some cases most times it penetrates. When it does not penetrate it seems as it does not transfer much energy. This could be quality of test material.

The marketing issue for the 5.7 might be that there are other lightweight projectile loads in .355 to .451 caliber that utilize hyper per caliber velocities that provide similar or in some cases improved penetration VS the 5.7.

.22 Mamba

Is there a place that can provide ready to use organic gel?

Or maybe because they throw lawyers at every complaint, including people who posted things about them on ARFCOM.  What's your angle?

Unfortunately no. It's a pain in the butt to use but actually gives usable data.

Clear gel just makes pretty pictures and gives people a false sense of reality.

Wonder what that brassfetcher guy charges.

I seem to recall the organic stuff being very temperature sensitive and has to be calibrated with a bb at a certain speed and shot in a very narrow window of time from that calibration to be valid data.

Please tell me more about how businesses operate

Nobody is disparaging their product, just the douchebagery between the husband and wife.  Yeah when you threaten to sue everyone that criticizes you, then people tend to bite their lip.

The only person bitching about people exercising their right to buy elsewhere is you buddy

Yup

Although its not "calibrated" its "validated".

Clear gel could have a bb go exactly as far as you need a bb to go in organic gel but it doesn't mean the results would even be close.

You get a gold star!!!

Wrong again 3 X , as usual.  Please return to GD. This is a technical forum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gentleman, I apologize for his trolling behavior and his following me here.

The bb test is more of a validation that the variables of the test block are within parameters for use.

I hope for a 5.7 craze. I'm hoping some solid, scientific gel tests will occur and convince me that 5.7 really is the best thing ever.

ok i'm so upset with myself!!!! just powered up the chrono and went to log my data and I pressed the wrong button and deleted everything.

I do remember some of the velocities. 5.2gr were in the mid 2000's, 5.4gr was upper 2200's with one that read 2400 on the nose then things nose bombed.

Here's a quick measurement rundown. Fresh resized brass measures .373", 4.5gr measured .3745, 5gr measured .3745-.375, 5.2gr .3755, 5.4gr .3755 now all of these plunk in and out of the barrel without issue.

Now is where things changed 5.6gr had erratic velocities from 1700-2100 cases took effort to remove from the chamber and will not drop back into the barrel. case expansion was .377" and weirdly 2/3's of the body of the case has this measurement but the web is still .3755". I shot 1 5.8gr which was 2108 ft/sec and it got stuck in the barrel. I didn't want to damage the extractor so I waited till I got home and used a vice grip to get it out. body diameter was .3775" and web .376" now an intersting thing about this case is it had a deeper firing pin indent and it looked as it walked to the edge of the primer as if it maybe was trying to tilt the barrel down during the hit?

The primers on all but the 1 mentioned looked the same and they have less primer flow than factory 9mm ammo, likely due to the rifle primer thickness?

All of the loads were starting to cycle the slide with the factory spring.

Looks like I need to go a touch slower on the powder or concentrate on the 5.2-5.4gr load.

Sounds good.  Going to have to lighten the springs?

Once I finalize a load yes I will run a lighter spring. Armscor uses an 11 lb spring for the glock conversion and I will likely start there but reduce the load and re-work  up first.

It was advised to me by a fellow on Glock Talk who plays with these bottleneck cartridges to work up with the stiffer spring to prevent a timing issue that could turn bad (ie. gun try's to unlock with too much pressure in the case still)

I may try AA#9 or maybe load some at 5.3gr and 5.4gr and test them again and see if i'm happy there. I mean 2200 is still no slouch with 34gr bullet from a handgun.

I'm awaiting his response and guidance before I pursue further. I may be @ the 55k threshold early because i'm running rifle primers in such a tiny case.

Yeah that temperature window that is has to maintain would basically mean early spring, late fall, and winter shooting only for gel testing.

How about ballistic soap. Is there any validity to the data collected from it?

Never seen an adult want so badly to be hall monitor

OP, I think it's just taken some time for people to warm up to something as radical as the 5.7.  Hopefully we will get a lot more offerings from here.  Don't care for HP ammo though, unless it is able to penetrate 12"

$51 msrp?

I'd like to suggest looking for a milder primer.

I used to have a primer cup thickness and brisance(sp?) chart but I can't seem to find it.

Currently running a cci 400. Whats another primer that can handle 55k psi but maybe not as hot?

ETA: Nevermind found it. so it sounds like Rem 6 1/2 is the one to try.....and I think I remember that now that I think of it. seem's someone told me it was designed for small cartridges like the 22 Hornet...Dir!!
This getting old stuff sucks

Remington 6 1/2 are just right for the case capacity of the .22 Hornet.  I believe the primers cups may be a little softer than regular small rifle primers. FWIW the .22 Hornet is a low pressure round by today's standards.

ETA: It would be worth asking around to see what primers gives the most consistent start pressures and muzzle velocities in the .221 Fireball and .22 Remington Jet

Shows the same .020" cup thickness as the CCI 400 but not to say it's not softer.

My buddy recently got a job at one of the major ammo manufacturers that produces ammo for both civilian and military.

They have an entire laboratory dedicated JUST to making gel blocks (organic). Climate controlled and everything.

If they don't shoot the ammo through organic gel they use....water. I'm not privilege to the details of course, but just plain ole water is used for ballistics testing to supplement real organic gel in a production setting.

Yup, pretty common.

Loaded up some of the 34's at 5.3gr to re-test and get a solid velocity # and try and do some accuracy testing. Also loaded up a few 33 jhp's to work those up. they actually look pretty tough! Being that it's a shorter bullet it should run ~50 ft/sec faster than the 34's.

Not in this hall though

Nobody is arguing that, non sequitur.  It was a general statement as some 5.7 HPs and even FMJ fail to regularly penetrate 12"

Thanks for proving my point on trying to squash any criticism of Elite BTW