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Posted: 10/26/2019 3:39:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Strela:
Pistols without optics - why bother? Because everyone doesn't like the same thing and people have been adequately dispatching other people with iron sighted handguns for many years. I'm fine with progress, but I'm at the age that I'm not willing to put in the time and expense to master something new. Also, I've not seen a wholesale rush in LE and the military to adopt pistols with optics. Use what you like. Handguns don't win wars, so they don't care that much. Speaking of that, the DoD just adopted the M17 and REQUIRED all pistols in the competition be cut for a red dot. |
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Posted: 10/26/2019 3:52:57 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SV650Squid:
Literally, the DoD is about 30 years behind the times with pistols. Handguns don't win wars, so they don't care that much. Speaking of that, the DoD just adopted the M17 and REQUIRED all pistols in the competition be cut for a red dot. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SV650Squid:
Originally Posted By Strela:
Pistols without optics - why bother? Because everyone doesn't like the same thing and people have been adequately dispatching other people with iron sighted handguns for many years. I'm fine with progress, but I'm at the age that I'm not willing to put in the time and expense to master something new. Also, I've not seen a wholesale rush in LE and the military to adopt pistols with optics. Use what you like. Handguns don't win wars, so they don't care that much. Speaking of that, the DoD just adopted the M17 and REQUIRED all pistols in the competition be cut for a red dot. And not a lot else. |
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Posted: 10/26/2019 5:00:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Fooboy]
[#3]
Sorry about my opening tone - I meant it be kind of funny but in retrospect can see it came across condescending.
In response to a few comments: A red dot will not make a bad shooter good, but it will make a good shooter better. If you've tried it and don't like it, I encourage you to pick it up and keep trying. Initially I tried it and I didn't like it. I was a detractor until a few of my buddies that I typically beat in competition got red dots and started to smoke me. That set me on the path.  It's more expensive But it is better as well
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LA, USA
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Posted: 10/26/2019 9:38:35 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy:
Sorry about my opening tone - I meant it be kind of funny but in retrospect can see it came across condescending. In response to a few comments: A red dot will not make a bad shooter good, but it will make a good shooter better. If you've tried it and don't like it, I encourage you to pick it up and keep trying. Initially I tried it and I didn't like it. I was a detractor until a few of my buddies that I typically beat in competition got red dots and started to smoke me. That set me on the path. It's more expensive But it is better as wellPut the dot on the target. Pull the trigger. |
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Posted: 10/27/2019 8:15:10 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DAVE_M: With completely green shooters, a red dot allows them to focus less on sight alignment and more on other things. Put the dot on the target. Pull the trigger. Confirm grip and trigger pull are good, mix snap caps and live ammo randomly in a mag, and put them on a timer for a single round center mass at 7 yards out of the holster. It's usually 1 A zone and then low left C and D zone hits galore. Hit a snap cap and viola - they are anticipating recoil, dipping the gun, jerking the trigger, etc. After 2-3 mags they start to get it and are shooting very small groups. I did this with 2 guys yesterday, actually. One guy started with a teacup grip and was all over the place - ended up shooting a 2 inch shoot dead center. If you don't have the fundamentals (grip, presentation, sight picture, trigger pull) the dot isn't gonna help. If you do ... it's magic. Another shooter was pretty squared away and we were shooting a multi position barricade drill on steel at about 20 yards (included low ports where you had to go prone or get very low). He cut his time in half (-30 seconds quicker) going from irons to RMR and misses dropped to almost 0. To repeat myself: it won't make a bad shooter good but it will make a good shooter better. |
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Posted: 10/27/2019 10:49:59 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy:
To repeat myself: it won't make a bad shooter good but it will make a good shooter better. Hand someone a stock Glock and they'll shoot according to their skill. Hand them an STI DVC-P with an RDS and they'll still shoot according to their skill, but the results will be better because the gun is inherently more shootable. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 10/27/2019 11:00:47 AM EDT
[#7]
Maybe I didn't give them enough time (6mo), maybe I picked the wrong kind (320rxCompact with Romeo1), but I hated it.
Way slower. No matter how hard I tried, could not get dot to present on target upon draw, had to search for it. Slower shot to shot. I was able to scratch up a little better accuracy at 25yds slow fire, but that is 100% worthless given the other limitations I had. I've diluted myself into thinking it was just a 320 issue and I'm going to spend a stupid amount of money to mill a G19, buy an rmr, and try it again, but sonofabitch I'm worried it's going to suck again and now I'll be stuck with a stupid butchered pistol. |
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Posted: 10/27/2019 11:15:08 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
Maybe I didn't give them enough time (6mo), maybe I picked the wrong kind (320rxCompact with Romeo1), but I hated it. Way slower. No matter how hard I tried, could not get dot to present on target upon draw, had to search for it. Slower shot to shot. I was able to scratch up a little better accuracy at 25yds slow fire, but that is 100% worthless given the other limitations I had. I've diluted myself into thinking it was just a 320 issue and I'm going to spend a stupid amount of money to mill a G19, buy an rmr, and try it again, but sonofabitch I'm worried it's going to suck again and now I'll be stuck with a stupid butchered pistol. |
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Posted: 10/27/2019 11:21:34 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
Maybe I didn't give them enough time (6mo), maybe I picked the wrong kind (320rxCompact with Romeo1), but I hated it. Way slower. No matter how hard I tried, could not get dot to present on target upon draw, had to search for it. Slower shot to shot. I was able to scratch up a little better accuracy at 25yds slow fire, but that is 100% worthless given the other limitations I had. I've diluted myself into thinking it was just a 320 issue and I'm going to spend a stupid amount of money to mill a G19, buy an rmr, and try it again, but sonofabitch I'm worried it's going to suck again and now I'll be stuck with a stupid butchered pistol. NPOA is easier to "cheat" with irons. But if the sights aren't coming back to NPOA with irons, even with subconscious correction, the then your aren't shooting consistently. When I dry fire, it takes a few reps to switch NPOA and acquire the dot when I swap between Glocks and P320s, but I also find I have the same issue with irons. The first gun I ever shot with a Dot was a P226X5 with a frame mounted optic. Couldn't see it and I thought it was dumb. Fast forward a couple years I bit the bullet, built a Glock with an RMR and did tons of draws, now I'm in love with the concept because I'm drawing and acquiring my sights consistently. Using an RDS with backup sights can help in the learning curve. I started by acquiring my irons, built my NPOA, now I have no issue picking up the dot while ignoring the BUIS altogether. |
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Posted: 10/27/2019 11:26:49 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
Maybe I didn't give them enough time (6mo), maybe I picked the wrong kind (320rxCompact with Romeo1), but I hated it. Way slower. No matter how hard I tried, could not get dot to present on target upon draw, had to search for it. Slower shot to shot. I was able to scratch up a little better accuracy at 25yds slow fire, but that is 100% worthless given the other limitations I had. I've diluted myself into thinking it was just a 320 issue and I'm going to spend a stupid amount of money to mill a G19, buy an rmr, and try it again, but sonofabitch I'm worried it's going to suck again and now I'll be stuck with a stupid butchered pistol. Dry fire is important. It's importanter with a dot. It doesn't take MORE time in dry fire to get a dot gun figured out, it's just more important. This is a near direct quote from Hwansik Kim on Ben Stoeger's podcast, Hwansik is a top 5 type dude in Carry Optics and Ben is a IPSC Production World Champion (and USPSA champ like 1234512431234 times). |
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Posted: 10/27/2019 11:33:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Searching for the dot and not finding the dot during presentation are both signs that your natural point of aim hasn't been established. NPOA is easier to "cheat" with irons. But if the sights aren't coming back to NPOA with irons, even with subconscious correction, the then your aren't shooting consistently. When I dry fire, it takes a few reps to switch NPOA and acquire the dot when I swap between Glocks and P320s, but I also find I have the same issue with irons. The first gun I ever shot with a Dot was a P226X5 with a frame mounted optic. Couldn't see it and I thought it was dumb. Fast forward a couple years I bit the bullet, built a Glock with an RMR and did tons of draws, now I'm in love with the concept because I'm drawing and acquiring my sights consistently. Using an RDS with backup sights can help in the learning curve. I started by acquiring my irons, built my NPOA, now I have no issue picking up the dot while ignoring the BUIS altogether. |
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Posted: 10/27/2019 11:35:40 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
Maybe I didn't give them enough time (6mo), maybe I picked the wrong kind (320rxCompact with Romeo1), but I hated it. Way slower. No matter how hard I tried, could not get dot to present on target upon draw, had to search for it. Slower shot to shot. I was able to scratch up a little better accuracy at 25yds slow fire, but that is 100% worthless given the other limitations I had. I've diluted myself into thinking it was just a 320 issue and I'm going to spend a stupid amount of money to mill a G19, buy an rmr, and try it again, but sonofabitch I'm worried it's going to suck again and now I'll be stuck with a stupid butchered pistol. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/27/2019 12:07:00 PM EDT
[#13]
When my hand gun skills are more proficient I might consider it. I'm also in the boat of writing on the tech to improve first. I do like shooting with a red dot it's amazingly easy. I just need to improve with irons and other things first.
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Posted: 10/27/2019 12:25:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nanashi:
When my hand gun skills are more proficient I might consider it. I'm also in the boat of writing on the tech to improve first. I do like shooting with a red dot it's amazingly easy. I just need to improve with irons and other things first. Shoot with a dot. |
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Posted: 10/27/2019 12:26:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TCBA_Joe]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nanashi:
When my hand gun skills are more proficient I might consider it. I'm also in the boat of writing on the tech to improve first. I do like shooting with a red dot it's amazingly easy. I just need to improve with irons and other things first. Irons can mask issues that are very apparent when using dots. It's worth it to practice both simultaneously. The tech is getting really good. Something like a holosun 507 has gotten great reviews by big names for being super bomb proof and very affordable. |
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Posted: 10/27/2019 3:11:15 PM EDT
[#16]
Never tried it, honestly. I'm sure it's really cool and seems to be the way things are going. However, theres a few problems right now that prevent me from getting into it:
1. Expense. Take a $500-600 pistol, slap some night sights on it and you're ready to go. If you want to add an optic, you'll need a MOS (or comparable) pistol or slide milling, and the optic itself. Turns a $600-700 setup into a $900-1100 setup if it didnt come cut from the factory. And factory cuts/systems always seem to be less optimal than a custom job. Oh, don't forget a set of supressor height sights. 2. Reliability. Iron sights are always always there. The MRO has plenty of issues and other similar reflex sights just aren't up to the job imo. Just fine for competition, but not okay for defensive use. Battery life also becomes an issue. When I pick up my rifle with a T2, I know it's going to be on and ready as long as I changed the battery once in the last two years. 3. Sight picture. If I wake up at 3:30am to grab a pistol, I'm half asleep. I dont want to be worried about finding the dot and not know which way to turn the muzzle to find it. With a set of night sights, I know based on which sight is moving and can correct it in less than a second. An RDS pistol isn't like a RDS rifle where your cheekweld guides the sight picture everytime. I think it's an awesome idea and will be the future. Once a product comes out with the RMR form factor and Aimpoint battery life/reliability, I'm all game. Until then, it's just not worth the expense for me. |
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ISR
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Posted: 10/27/2019 3:31:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack19]
[#17]
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
Target focus. Better accuracy across the board. Speed is the same up close with some practice, better at medium/longer distance. Im converting people left and right. When I go back to shooting irons I'm better at it after shooting dots, but wonder why you'd want to stay there. If you're thinking about it - jump in with both feet. On occasion, I've had to smack some asshole in the head with the gun, no sense destroying a perfectly good optic. Handguns are, relatively speaking, up close, weapons, as long as my eyes see irons I'll use them. When the dot isn't there, how long do you search for it.....clock's a ticking.... Then again, I'm old fashioned, I'll still carry a SW 66 4" once in a while. 
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Posted: 10/27/2019 3:34:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack19: Murphy's law. On occasion, I've had to smack some asshole in the head with the gun, no sense destroying a perfectly good optic. Handguns are, relatively speaking, up close, weapons, as long as my eyes see iron's I'll use them. When the dot isn't there, how long do you search for it.....clock's a ticking.... Read the MRDS White Paper from Sage Dynamics linked to upthread and pay close attention to the testing methodology. Welcome to the modern world. |
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ISR
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Posted: 10/27/2019 3:36:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack19]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy:
So buy a MRDS which isn’t a massive piece of shit and can take a blow. Read the MRDS White Paper from Sage Dynamics linked to upthread and pay close attention to the testing methodology. Welcome to the modern world. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By Jack19: Murphy's law. On occasion, I've had to smack some asshole in the head with the gun, no sense destroying a perfectly good optic. Handguns are, relatively speaking, up close, weapons, as long as my eyes see iron's I'll use them. When the dot isn't there, how long do you search for it.....clock's a ticking.... Read the MRDS White Paper from Sage Dynamics linked to upthread and pay close attention to the testing methodology. Welcome to the modern world. ETA: Interesting. https://www.eotechinc.com/holographic-weapon-sights/mini-red-dot-sight-mrds Doesn't seem to be a way for the guy in the pics to use irons. Not that I don't take your point. |
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Posted: 10/27/2019 5:19:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack19:
Doesn't seem to be a way for the guy in the pics to use irons. Not that I don't take your point. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 1:41:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DDEL]
[#21]
My RMR is interesting/enjoyable to shoot and I like being able to focus on the target. It has also helped me shoot my iron sight only carry gun better (forced a more consistent presentation)
But the exposed emitter means a no go me for carry. A single big drop of rain will render the sight useless if it splatters onto the emitter. And the entire “ that’s what people said about red dots on rifles...you’re a Fudd if you’re not on board” Is bullshit. You can do a handstand and mount your rifle and the dot will be there, the pistoldoesn't work the same way and it takes tons of CORRECT training to get back to your iron sight speed. A red dot on a rifle makes anyone faster right from the first shot and provides instant success for first time shooter. Hand a non shooter a rds pistol and watch them try to find the dot for amusement. I think the current sights are low tech. Imagine a fin the size front sight but longer with a daylight bright red dot. The Battery and all electrons sits in a MOS plate Just a red dot on a bump with all the parallax free advantages. Now we are f’n talking. Hell even if it was 3x the size of a front sight it would be awesome. But I don’t need a projection TV sitting on my carry pistol. And don’t even get me started about all these suppressor height sights and co witnessing obsessions. That’s more rifle bullshit carrying over. You should not need to reference your sight to shoot a red dot, that is just a handicapped fix for poor grip/presentation. And speaking of rifle carry over while I’m babbling on too much caffeine, I’m going to call this “Roland Disease”...too many thing being chosen and hung on pistols just because it’s trendy but doesn’t mean squat during a typical civilian shooting situation |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 6:20:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Fooboy]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DDEL:
My RMR is interesting/enjoyable to shoot and I like being able to focus on the target. It has also helped me shoot my iron sight only carry gun better (forced a more consistent presentation) But the exposed emitter means a no go me for carry. A single big drop of rain will render the sight useless if it splatters onto the emitter. And the entire " that's what people said about red dots on rifles...you're a Fudd if you're not on board" Is bullshit. You can do a handstand and mount your rifle and the dot will be there, the pistoldoesn't work the same way and it takes tons of CORRECT training to get back to your iron sight speed. A red dot on a rifle makes anyone faster right from the first shot and provides instant success for first time shooter. Hand a non shooter a rds pistol and watch them try to find the dot for amusement. I think the current sights are low tech. Imagine a fin the size front sight but longer with a daylight bright red dot. The Battery and all electrons sits in a MOS plate Just a red dot on a bump with all the parallax free advantages. Now we are f'n talking. Hell even if it was 3x the size of a front sight it would be awesome. But I don't need a projection TV sitting on my carry pistol. And don't even get me started about all these suppressor height sights and co witnessing obsessions. That's more rifle bullshit carrying over. You should not need to reference your sight to shoot a red dot, that is just a handicapped fix for poor grip/presentation. And speaking of rifle carry over while I'm babbling on too much caffeine, I'm going to call this "Roland Disease"...too many thing being chosen and hung on pistols just because it's trendy but doesn't mean squat during a typical civilian shooting situation Another myth.  MRDS Moisture Concerns I've tried to wet my RMR with water dribbling from a water bottle with a squirt top and couldn't get the dot to disappear. I'm sure it's possible - but I'll take a huge increase in capability for my typical / most common shooting conditions and manage through the low risk items. For example - just because Its possible I get mud, snow, dirt stuck in the notch of my rear iron sight (which it can) doesn't I'm better off without it. Or - what If I snag my irons on clothing? These are low risk trade offs for the clear benefit of having irons. The concern with water and - at least the RMR - is the same. Also, per video above - If you get water which impedes the dot, you have back up irons and water is gone after first shot. See above video. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:15:10 AM EDT
[#23]
my Trijicon RMR constant on sight has a hole that I think is so you can blow through to clear out any water on the emitter...
cost of the milling was $75 + shipping pick up an RMR'd pistol (I have a TLR-1 on it) without a light, and compare the sight picture in the dark to one with a tritium night sight 3 dot system |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:30:30 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack19: Murphy's law. 
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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:38:49 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DAVE_M: Yea... about that. https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59928937_2157633177677784_6830463890157993984_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQmKN2WBTMKQwLrLoyPwVXs9DKpHV_sEQV4xP25rJpIQiks0phDVy4MKSAXQyBj7Ycs&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=1cbf5f7b39a602862d3291046cd821f9&oe=5E2353F2 Thank god this guy had his back up MRDS for when his irons failed.  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:02:39 AM EDT
[#26]
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LA, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:02:45 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Also: Thank god this guy had his back up MRDS for when his irons failed. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/241349/C2FA8945-5693-4DE0-BE31-615802CF7B77_jpeg-1140340.JPG 
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:11:52 AM EDT
[#28]
BMRDS?
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:19:17 AM EDT
[#29]
I nearly bought a CZ P-10C optics ready this weekend but looking at it, the cost was just going to get out of control. $570 for the pistol (w/tax), then $250-400 for a red dot and mounting, then new holsters, extra mags, etc. So I put it off for a while. I thought to myself, Do I really need another polymer 9x19 right now? Answer was no.
I'm sure my next carry gun will have one though. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:23:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DAVE_M]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigern314:
I nearly bought a CZ P-10C optics ready this weekend but looking at it, the cost was just going to get out of control. $570 for the pistol (w/tax), then $250-400 for a red dot and mounting, then new holsters, extra mags, etc. So I put it off for a while. I thought to myself, Do I really need another polymer 9x19 right now? Answer was no. I'm sure my next carry gun will have one though. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigern314:
I nearly bought a CZ P-10C optics ready this weekend but looking at it, the cost was just going to get out of control. $570 for the pistol (w/tax), then $250-400 for a red dot and mounting, then new holsters, extra mags, etc. So I put it off for a while. I thought to myself, Do I really need another polymer 9x19 right now? Answer was no. I'm sure my next carry gun will have one though. Most steel framed hammer guns are in that price range. Rather than buying a new pistol, why not have an existing pistol milled for an optic? Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
BMRDS? |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:49:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Fooboy]
[#31]
I actually didn't realize iron sights broke that often.
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 12:18:10 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DAVE_M: You can get a P10C for $350 and send it off to be milled for $150-200. That is less than the cost of the Optics Ready pistol you're looking at. I've also seen RMR's on sale for as low as $269. That puts you around $850 total for a modern gun with a red dot. Most steel framed hammer guns are in that price range. Rather than buying a new pistol, why not have an existing pistol milled for an optic? Seems appropriate. Maybe RD costs will come down a bit by then. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 12:18:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy:
I actually didn't realize sights broke that often. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 1:07:36 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigern314: Glock perfection. 
Like the M&P I posted above? How bout a VP9? 
Maybe a 1911?  A PX4 for your enjoyment... I can post more if you want... |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 1:10:01 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigern314: Well a $350 P10C is going to be an internet buy so add on $50+ for shipping and transfer. Then with $150-200 for milling and I'm pretty much where I'm at buying a new one locally premilled. And I don't want to put a RD on my current guns right now. So I'll just wait and when I guy a pistol next year see what is out there. Maybe RD costs will come down a bit by then. Most places offer free shipping and local transfers here are $15, so I feel sorry for you in your locale. If you have zero experience with RDS and can only offer up that you don't want to spend the money to invest in a pistol that is RDS compatible, you might be in the wrong thread. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 1:38:47 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DAVE_M: HURR HURR GLOCK PERFECTION
Like the M&P I posted above? How bout a VP9? https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59980931_10218180108671188_3778065967586738176_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_eui2=AeE6Thn2A9npqu5t51GAXBRLOs1rXrpqoOlYv8h5FScKlcrFeRt-ZmV4WcY2NMvYyU_dncAoHOc02HeQyjDU7u6D_qXOUgh2tYeuUfltijRhAw&_nc_oc=AQlRT2db3W0sSyMLAwJWXFLPpwImIMDnDd79cgtwO6LtzuEPZndvm7nmwXN0M_CNpFc&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=dfbd4a85f4a79ea68fe2b272da65d708&oe=5E56689A Maybe a 1911? https://i.imgur.com/Q0rN6LX.jpg A PX4 for your enjoyment... https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?s=1f3079e2064a14ea3686a37a6a3833ed&attachmentid=39386&d=1561322231 I can post more if you want... |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 1:54:38 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DAVE_M: $50 for shipping and transfer... lol Most places offer free shipping and local transfers here are $15, so I feel sorry for you in your locale. If you have zero experience with RDS and can only offer up that you don't want to spend the money to invest in a pistol that is RDS compatible, you might be in the wrong thread. Most FFL I'm familiar with are 25 bucks for a transfer, a few are 35. And I was just speculating that any gun I order on the internet is going to cost me a little on shipping so I figured roughly 50-ish on shipping and FFL wasn't out of the question making that $350 P-10C not must more cost effective than the optics ready version I was checking on this weekend. I called about 15 dealers this weekend and only one could get them from a distributor for 570 something total with tax. Finally Mike Gun's told me their distributor had 23 in stock and I had to do some figuring and decided to hold off until after the holidays since a new carry pistol requires a lot more spending than just on the pistol. In any event the total cost going either way is pretty comparable and I'll look into it next year. I'd rather just get one pre cut and go from there. Maybe some of the $250 optics, I think the Viper vortex was what I was looking at, will drop down a bit with more competition over the next several months. So to summarize I agree with the title of the thread based on what I've read, and hope to enjoy a new weapon with improved optics in the next several months. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 2:07:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigern314: Yep, you best inundate the thread with pics of non glocks screwing up. Or just realize it was a quick throw away joke. How triggered you are is up to you Trigger. Just pointing out that silly drive by comments adding to the idiocy in this thread are unnecessary. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 5:07:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: brickeyee]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy:
I actually didn't realize sights broke that often. Every blow produces thousands of gs of impact force on the thing. It took a lot of tries to develop electronics to ride in artillery shells. The acceleration up the barrel is the first problem. The triggers that can be set to penetrate N layers of a buildings floors are even worse. When testing things we used to pack them in brown sugar, then bake to hard. It worked pretty well, and you could always soak it in warm water to free it up. For the most part crystal oscillators cannot be used. The crystal cannot vibrate under the g loading. During firing or as the projectile spins in flight. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 5:15:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy:
@DDEL Another myth.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tV_TafhDrs
I've tried to wet my RMR with water dribbling from a water bottle with a squirt top and couldn't get the dot to disappear. I'm sure it's possible - but I'll take a huge increase in capability for my typical / most common shooting conditions and manage through the low risk items. For example - just because Its possible I get mud, snow, dirt stuck in the notch of my rear iron sight (which it can) doesn't I'm better off without it. Or - what If I snag my irons on clothing? These are low risk trade offs for the clear benefit of having irons. The concern with water and - at least the RMR - is the same. Also, per video above - If you get water which impedes the dot, you have back up irons and water is gone after first shot. See above video. That being said, I spent an entire hunting season with one on my shockwave. I was sleeping in the teens, fell in a river, rained on, snowed on and never had an issue... Until I did. Fortunately it was at the range and not while aiming at a bear. Instead of just being for something because of the actual benefits I wish Aaron would spearhead a better design instead of being condescending and dismissive. To be fair I've had peep sights become unusable in freezing rain too. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 5:17:47 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brickeyee: Electronics riding on a gun is like being strapped to the side of a hammer. Every blow produces thousands of gs of impact force on the thing. It took a lot of tries to develop electronics to ride in artillery shells. The acceleration up the barrel is the first problem. The triggers that can be set to penetrate N layers of a buildings floors are even worse. When testing things we used to pack them in brown sugar, then bake to hard. It worked pretty well, and you could always soak it in warm water to free it up. For the most part crystal oscillators cannot be used. The crystal cannot vibrate under the g loading. During firing or as the projectile spins in flight. I'm fully aware of how much impulse is imparted on firearms and pistols. I used to strap accelerameters on guns and break them in creative ways for work. Pistol optics aren't 200% but we're rapidly approaching the 90-95% point. We have cheap contest options made by holosun being recognized for hitting trends of thousands of rounds and dozens of multiple day combat shooting courses. No one of them is perfect, but there are several very good options each with pros and cons (T1, RMR, DPP, 507C, ACRO). Those are all 90% solutions. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 5:26:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brickeyee: Electronics riding on a gun is like being strapped to the side of a hammer. Every blow produces thousands of gs of impact force on the thing. It took a lot of tries to develop electronics to ride in artillery shells. The acceleration up the barrel is the first problem. The triggers that can be set to penetrate N layers of a buildings floors are even worse. When testing things we used to pack them in brown sugar, then bake to hard. It worked pretty well, and you could always soak it in warm water to free it up. For the most part crystal oscillators cannot be used. The crystal cannot vibrate under the g loading. During firing or as the projectile spins in flight. iron sights. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 5:41:13 PM EDT
[#43]
So what is the lowest cost quality pistol red dot?
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Posted: 10/28/2019 5:48:12 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigern314:
So what is the lowest cost quality pistol red dot? If you look around guys have found them under $300 |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 7:35:03 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy:
Buy a brownells slide. im thinking I'm going to take the plunge and get the gen 5 milled. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 7:44:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TCBA_Joe]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
3 G4's and a G5 kinda preclude that. im thinking I'm going to take the plunge and get the gen 5 milled. Brownells makes Gen 4 slides for both 17 and 19s. Gen 4 19 slides work 100% on Gen 5 19/45/19X. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 7:58:09 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN: Sorry but that video is passing on the bad info. I've had a rmr become completely unusable because of light rain. Took maybe 15 minutes before I had to take it off the gun. That being said, I spent an entire hunting season with one on my shockwave. I was sleeping in the teens, fell in a river, rained on, snowed on and never had an issue... Until I did. Fortunately it was at the range and not while aiming at a bear. Instead of just being for something because of the actual benefits I wish Aaron would spearhead a better design instead of being condescending and dismissive. To be fair I've had peep sights become unusable in freezing rain too. Just like all the other matches or training evolutions I've shot in with a dot. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 7:59:34 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Holosun 507C If you look around guys have found them under $300 They don't survive the drop test as well as the RMR, but I actually prefer them in several ways. I wish they would come out with a large format dot which fits a DPP footprint because I'm done with those fucking things. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 8:05:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy:
I wish they would come out with a large format dot which fits a DPP footprint because I'm done with those fucking things. The new Romeo 1 pro does as well, and it looks promising. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 8:08:22 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
That would be pretty cool. The new Romeo 1 pro does as well, and it looks promising. |
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