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Posted: 10/28/2019 8:08:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Weird... I just shot a match in shitting rain and had zero issues in PCC or CO. Just like all the other matches or training evolutions I've shot in with a dot. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By 03RN: Sorry but that video is passing on the bad info. I've had a rmr become completely unusable because of light rain. Took maybe 15 minutes before I had to take it off the gun. That being said, I spent an entire hunting season with one on my shockwave. I was sleeping in the teens, fell in a river, rained on, snowed on and never had an issue... Until I did. Fortunately it was at the range and not while aiming at a bear. Instead of just being for something because of the actual benefits I wish Aaron would spearhead a better design instead of being condescending and dismissive. To be fair I've had peep sights become unusable in freezing rain too. Just like all the other matches or training evolutions I've shot in with a dot. I shoot a lot in the rain and that time killed the rmr for me. I still have one on my shockwave and one on a Glock though. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 8:15:08 PM EDT
[#2]
My two cents...
only hipsters and people who don't want to learn to aim with iron sights use optics on a pistol iron sights on a pistol is for real men, less weight, don't need batteries and easier to conceal |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 8:23:01 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mikesx4911:
My two cents... only hipsters and people who don't want to learn to aim with iron sights use optics on a pistol iron sights on a pistol is for real men, less weight, don't need batteries and easier to conceal |
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FM, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 8:32:19 PM EDT
[#4]
Im constantly amazed at how controversial this is to some folks, still.
Think irons never break? Spend a year going to USPSA matches. Think rain will destroy all your hopes of seeing the dot? Take a step outside and play with it yourself. Better yet, use a T1/2 or Acro... Think electronics can’t survive shock and vibe impulses? I sure hope you don’t fly, with the same logic then. There’s plenty of good resources to educate yourself with on the topic. Aaron Cowan is one of the best, because he is very transparent, methodical and does not sugarcoat the truth. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 8:53:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TCBA_Joe]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mikesx4911:
My two cents... only hipsters and people who don't want to learn to aim with iron sights use optics on a pistol iron sights on a pistol is for real men, less weight, don't need batteries and easier to conceal "Real men don't use MRDS" is an emotional argument to make yourself feel superior in the face of evidence to the contrary. Battery life, weight, conceal ability? What year do you think this is? It's not 1990 
Welcome to 2019 where 1.2oz RMRs have battery lives that are measured in years and are so small they're unnoticeable when holstered. 
Pistol mounted red dots are 30 years old at this point. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 8:58:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 45-Seventy]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mikesx4911:
My two cents... only hipsters and people who don't want to learn to aim with iron sights use optics on a pistol iron sights on a pistol is for real men, less weight, don't need batteries and easier to conceal |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:57:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Well... I hope you fuckers are happy.....
I just ordered a Gen 3 G19 Slide parts kit.... to go with the Aim Gen3 G19 Slide I just bought (Milled for an RMR) I'll have you know, I was looking at Gen 5 G19FS under the Blue label program... and would have bought one, if all of the current stock they had, had that awful cut out in the front strap. I'll be watching the EE for a good deal on either a Type 1 RMR or a Holoson H507C |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 11:11:32 PM EDT
[#8]
15 years ago the same arguments were being made against red dots on rifles.
In 10 more years I think 90% of the pistols you see in classes will have optics Last class I went to was about 25% and growing fast |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2019 11:12:49 PM EDT
[#9]
Why cant you like and use both?
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Posted: 10/29/2019 12:39:17 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DAVE_M: Backup MRDS are essential. https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37571974_1817486884953708_4570887492722491392_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_eui2=AeFR50cRQ7O_NjQKE00PIHd6MFkZrLQBmZmunQjeJI9DSkj4Xtv2adxnUumk73AJ27F-CnMBbqDmfIbo21m4bAdB0HMmAndXZ15O51z3ZemrhQ&_nc_oc=AQkJ3G80S8wZMotE6IbjvP5_hup7nYBPU63GFsGI4QyI_mii_p_mfJ7cTaTAU8tmrIM&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=ab929f780ca99b43c5bc4b877e0b0f6c&oe=5E1C56E0 |
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USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 9:22:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Dominion21]
[#11]
With all due respect, some weapons innovations are clearly improvements- even if there remain “bitter clingers” who tenaciously cling to the past.
For you long-serving members of the military services, what’s better for the average ground soldier - this? 
-or this? 
This: 
Or this? 
This: 
- or this? 
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Posted: 10/29/2019 9:41:54 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21:
With all due respect, some weapons innovations are clearly improvements- even if there remain “bitter clingers” who tenaciously cling to the past. For you long-serving members of the military services, what’s better for the average ground soldier - this? http://classicarmyshop.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/r/ar007m-x_m16a2_rifle_2009_version_.jpg -or this? http://i.imgur.com/7fNBqi3.jpg This: https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/prodimages/33224-DEFAULT-l.jpg Or this? https://image.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/2/235786m4_ts.jpg This: http://www.defensivecarry.com/gallery/data/500/medium/SIght_alignment-sight_picture_EDITED.JPG - or this? https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media/vc/c5d6d7d1-2bdf-4f2a-b86e-2114582e373d._CR0,0,500,500_PT0_SX300__.jpg |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 9:50:28 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ken_mays: User error is everywhere. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 9:51:49 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
19s or 17s? Brownells makes Gen 4 slides for both 17 and 19s. Gen 4 19 slides work 100% on Gen 5 19/45/19X. Was not aware that Gen4 slides were compatible. I will assuredly be buying a brownells slide now. Thank you very much for the info. |
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Posted: 10/29/2019 10:18:33 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
19's for all. G4's are kinda backups now since this Gen5 is a hell of a shooter. Was not aware that Gen4 slides were compatible. I will assuredly be buying a brownells slide now. Thank you very much for the info. My G45 has a Gen 4 Unity Tactical slide on it, unity says they aren't making a Gen 5 slide at this point since it works. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 10:59:14 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Holosun 507C If you look around guys have found them under $300 I wonder how the battery life is when you are carrying it 12 hours a day and its running the entire time. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 11:00:59 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigern314: Don't those sit up kind of high? Or is that just with the rail mount which I'm assuming would come off? Are you still bringing the pistol up to the same eye level as if you were shooting though the irons? I wonder how the battery life is when you are carrying it 12 hours a day and its running the entire time. 
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 11:03:35 AM EDT
[#18]
Awesome. Thanks for the visual.
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NM, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 11:18:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Spook410]
[#19]
I understand putting an optic on a handgun with a great trigger and inherent accuracy when the intent is to use it beyond the useful range of iron sights. Or for precision at 50ft on a target pistol. Or for old eyes at 25 yards. For a concealed carry, given how I see my set up, it's superfluous.
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Posted: 10/29/2019 11:29:44 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Spook410:
I understand putting an optic on a handgun with a great trigger and inherent accuracy when the intent is to use it beyond the useful range of iron sights. Or for precision at 50ft on a target pistol. Or for old eyes at 25 yards. For a concealed carry, given how I see my set up, it's superfluous. |
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Posted: 10/29/2019 12:05:26 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DAVE_M:
Sure, just disregard any advancements in technology, because people are stupid... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DAVE_M:
Originally Posted By ken_mays: User error is everywhere. |
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Posted: 10/29/2019 12:23:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy:
@brickeyee iron sights. and slightly less rugged for range only use. And they need to be tight in their slots. It would be a really serious "Oh Sh*t" to have them break or even shift from a simple drop onto a hard surface. Very tall front blades come to mind as a problem waiting to happen. Not how many military guns have some style of substantial 'ears' to protect front site blades. The old farts might have known something. |
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Posted: 10/29/2019 12:47:27 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brickeyee: That is why they are built so but simple for combat use, and slightly less rugged for range only use. And they need to be tight in their slots. It would be a really serious "Oh Sh*t" to have them break or even shift from a simple drop onto a hard surface. Very tall front blades come to mind as a problem waiting to happen. Not how many military guns have some style of substantial 'ears' to protect front site blades. The old farts might have known something. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 1:13:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brickeyee: That is why they are built so but simple for combat use, and slightly less rugged for range only use. And they need to be tight in their slots. It would be a really serious "Oh Sh*t" to have them break or even shift from a simple drop onto a hard surface. Very tall front blades come to mind as a problem waiting to happen. Not how many military guns have some style of substantial 'ears' to protect front site blades. The old farts might have known something. The Holosun 507c and Trijicon RMR have proven to be very durable and have no issue being able to withstand beyond 10,000 rounds fired. Even if the glass were to break, you still have a usable sight picture to make hits. 
 Improved Handgun Optic Blockage Aiming Method |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 1:20:56 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Weird... I just shot a match in shitting rain and had zero issues in PCC or CO. Just like all the other matches or training evolutions I've shot in with a dot. 
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CO, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 2:58:17 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mikesx4911:
My two cents... only hipsters and people who don't want to learn to aim with iron sights use optics on a pistol iron sights on a pistol is for real men, less weight, don't need batteries and easier to conceal |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 2:59:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Why cant you like and use both? |
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Posted: 10/29/2019 3:01:17 PM EDT
[#28]
There are plenty of valid reasons to use either sighting system. Optics ARE awesome, but so is any well made pistol with iron sights.
Top competition shooters wouldn't use optics/MRDS if they didn't work and/or help improve scores. Any sight, whether those be factory plastic sights from Glock, sturdy fixed iron (steel) sights, optics, or MRDS can break, wear out, or fail to work for one reason or another. Mankind has yet to invent the perfect mechanical device. Anything less sturdy than a crowbar, anvil, or the head of a hammer risks damage, or breaking, and even those devices have some risk, (although minimal). While I haven't yet plunged into the MRDS pool, I realize their usefulness and benefits. Some day I may get one. As is the case with most electronic devices, technology is advancing very rapidly. There is always the chance that the most advanced technology of today will be obsolete next week when a device that is 4x as durable and utilitarian, and 1/4 the cost hits the market place. In any case there are valid reasons for using, or rejecting either type of sighting system. However rejecting either system out of stubbornness is just silly. If people weren't willing to at least consider new things we would still be shooting rocks out of smooth bore tubes and igniting the black powder with a match of some type. For now, I'm using iron sights on pistols, but that doesn't mean I can't understand why many top shooters use MRDS's. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 3:31:59 PM EDT
[#29]
I put one together that I really need to spend some time with.
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Posted: 10/29/2019 5:30:05 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ken_mays: The Glock front sight attachment method is put to the test with those heavy, tall front sights. It wasn't really designed for a front sight with that much mass. I'd feel better about a dovetail, though admittedly it's easier to just bolt a sight on. |
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FM, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 7:12:55 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rush4theYehO: You CAN. OP created this thread to rile the jimmies. He succeeded. The technology is obviously growing rapidly. I’d say don’t hate on it until you have some experience behind it. I personally think this is the way of the future. It’s no longer a specialty service to get an optic mounted on your handgun. Most major manufacturers cater to it as OEM now. JSOC has fielded optic equipped handguns for over a decade now. The tech trickled to being more commonplace within USASOC and SOCOM all the way to being a requirement for the M17 service pistol. Don’t knock it until you try it. No one is telling you that you have to have it, but it certainly is becoming a very viable solution and becoming much more commonplace. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2019 11:30:56 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HellioN:
I put one together that I really need to spend some time with. https://i.imgtc.com/m8hzIYb.jpg |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2019 10:39:31 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
How do you like that comp? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Originally Posted By HellioN:
I put one together that I really need to spend some time with. https://i.imgtc.com/m8hzIYb.jpg It's hard to say really, I never found the recoil of 9mm to be that bad to begin with. I'm sure it's doing exactly what it was designed to do, I maybe just don't shoot enough to take advantage. A larger one maybe more noticeable but I think it's more to due to weight. |
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Posted: 10/30/2019 10:44:05 AM EDT
[#34]
Do you guys favor the irons in front or behind the optic?
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Posted: 10/30/2019 10:55:55 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
Do you guys favor the irons in front or behind the optic? CO race guns run SROs so that isn’t an option, but I don’t run BUIS on those anyways. |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2019 11:00:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Spook410]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy:
The MRDS is a benefit under any conditions you actually aim a handgun. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By Spook410:
I understand putting an optic on a handgun with a great trigger and inherent accuracy when the intent is to use it beyond the useful range of iron sights. Or for precision at 50ft on a target pistol. Or for old eyes at 25 yards. For a concealed carry, given how I see my set up, it's superfluous. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2019 11:21:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DAVE_M]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Spook410: What does it bring to the party at 15 feet on a cheap combat pistol? You can hang whatever accessory makes you happy on that blaster. I'll stick to simple on a concealed carry and save my money for more useful things. You're also making the assumption that you will never have to fire a round beyond 3 yards. Keep your money. No one is forcing you to do anything... |
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Posted: 10/30/2019 12:15:51 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
Do you guys favor the irons in front or behind the optic? my thoughts. https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Why-you-should-mill-your-rear-iron-in-front-of-your-red-dot/4-189626/ |
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Posted: 10/30/2019 12:34:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 45-Seventy]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Spook410: What does it bring to the party at 15 feet on a cheap combat pistol? You can hang whatever accessory makes you happy on that blaster. I'll stick to simple on a concealed carry and save my money for more useful things. If that’s important to you. It is to me. But if you’re asking this question I’m going to make the assumption that you’re not training enough to realize the difference in performance. |
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Posted: 10/30/2019 12:55:56 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Spook410: What does it bring to the party at 15 feet on a cheap combat pistol? You can hang whatever accessory makes you happy on that blaster. I'll stick to simple on a concealed carry and save my money for more useful things. Threat focused targeting and escalation of force". Not all weapon use is "draw and shoot". |
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Posted: 10/30/2019 1:31:47 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Spook410:
What does it bring to the party at 15 feet on a cheap combat pistol? You can hang whatever accessory makes you happy on that blaster. I'll stick to simple on a concealed carry and save my money for more useful things. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Spook410:
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By Spook410:
I understand putting an optic on a handgun with a great trigger and inherent accuracy when the intent is to use it beyond the useful range of iron sights. Or for precision at 50ft on a target pistol. Or for old eyes at 25 yards. For a concealed carry, given how I see my set up, it's superfluous. I'll also address that RDS are simpler to use than irons as well. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2019 1:37:38 PM EDT
[#42]
So based on the posts about how you need a lot of training to use one of these is it even worth it if your shooting options are more limited? While living in the city I'm lucky to get to the range once a month a lot of times. Does this require a lot more than just getting used to the dot after your draw? That I can do at home with dry fire practice.
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Posted: 10/30/2019 1:38:40 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigern314:
So based on the posts about how you need a lot of training to use one of these is it even worth it if your shooting options are more limited? While living in the city I'm lucky to get to the range once a month a lot of times. Does this require a lot more than just getting used to the dot after your draw? That I can do at home with dry fire practice. |
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Posted: 10/30/2019 1:39:35 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigern314:
So based on the posts about how you need a lot of training to use one of these is it even worth it if your shooting options are more limited? While living in the city I'm lucky to get to the range once a month a lot of times. Does this require a lot more than just getting used to the dot after your draw? That I can do at home with dry fire practice. |
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Posted: 10/30/2019 1:42:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Bet a RDS would have been handy here.
 gang cop ONE TAPS suspect after 2 officer involved shootings |
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FM, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2019 2:07:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Faster, more accurate hits. If that’s important to you. It is to me. But if you’re asking this question I’m going to make the assumption that you’re not training enough to realize the difference in performance. |
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Posted: 10/30/2019 2:20:51 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Reekus: This is the most important thing. You wont see any benefits whatsoever if your concept of self defense is just having some gun you carry that you can point and shoot. People who actually get out and train often generally are more keen to seeing the benefits of a MRDS. Doesn't make it a requirement, but if you shoot enough you can easily identify the downfalls of iron sights. Those who do not typically have the mindset of “I can draw my gun and get on target pretty fast, I think. At the range, I make hits regularly.” Yet... They don’t really know because they’re not training to standards nor are they tracking metrics. People that do train on the other hand are looking at their performance honestly: This movement feels clunky and slow/X speed and Y range is right on the edge of control, if I speed up the wheels will start coming off but this rate will give me consistent Alphas/These Mag carriers aren’t good for concealment but they’re going to be slow/etc. |
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FM, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2019 2:54:36 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: A big part of this is the way things are seen differently by people who train, and those who do not. Those who do not typically have the mindset of “I can draw my gun and get on target pretty fast, I think. At the range, I make hits regularly.” Yet... They don’t really know because they’re not training to standards nor are they tracking metrics. People that do train on the other hand are looking at their performance honestly: This movement feels clunky and slow/X speed and Y range is right on the edge of control, if I speed up the wheels will start coming off but this rate will give me consistent Alphas/These Mag carriers aren’t good for concealment but they’re going to be slow/etc. |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2019 4:11:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Spook410]
[#49]
Internet discussion:
Statement: The thing I like is swell and everyone should like it better. And if you don't you're doing it wrong. Response: That's nice but you're requirements are exaggerated and it's not needed for the stated purpose. And then: You don't train, you're not one of us, and you just don't get it. Really? For self defense carry, the targets are, in fact, large. And they are always (always) very close when you're talking civilian carry. There are a few (not many, but some) objective metrics available online if you want to be factual. If you want to make up stuff or find some lightning strike anecdotal story to share so you can justify high capacity pistols with lights and optics, knock yourself out. I'm sure you'll be very tactical. But I still find it confusing that if you want down range precision, why are you shooting a Glock in the first place? |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/30/2019 4:19:34 PM EDT
[#50]
What is the preferred dot size? I see 6 and 3. I would think 3 for finer aiming but am I wrong?
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