User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
GA, USA
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Posted: 11/24/2019 1:59:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy:
No. The concern is overblown. You have pistol RDS SMEs like Aaron Cowan offering a qualified experience on the matter. Even when I had my pistol with a red dot on my in the real world and came across what I consider a bad thing, I get told its not realistic and I have bad equipment. Obviously those classes at the shooting range you guys are taking are more real world than me being out in the real world. The water on the glass moves the red dot's location. Refraction puts the dot high or low or off to either side. Even if you can barely make out a target through the thing, the gun ain't firing where you're trying to hit. But thats fine, cause some guys took a class at a shooting range and Aaron really likes red dots. No point even trying to have a conversation about it. No matter what reason anybody has for not wanting one, the answer will be that Aaron likes red dots and you guys took a multi days class at a range and nothing fucked up, so red dots are the best and never mess up. |
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Posted: 11/24/2019 2:18:15 PM EDT
[#2]
So who is recommended for slide milling?
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LA, USA
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Posted: 11/24/2019 2:40:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Seiran:
So who is recommended for slide milling? Some people also like Jagewerks. |
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Posted: 11/24/2019 2:42:38 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By giantpune:
What it sounds like to me is Aaron and some people in this thread just really like red dots and have convinced themselves that they have absolutely zero shortcomings and are the answer to everything. Even when I had my pistol with a red dot on my in the real world and came across what I consider a bad thing, I get told its not realistic and I have bad equipment. Obviously those classes at the shooting range you guys are taking are more real world than me being out in the real world. The water on the glass moves the red dot's location. Refraction puts the dot high or low or off to either side. Even if you can barely make out a target through the thing, the gun ain't firing where you're trying to hit. But thats fine, cause some guys took a class at a shooting range and Aaron really likes red dots. No point even trying to have a conversation about it. No matter what reason anybody has for not wanting one, the answer will be that Aaron likes red dots and you guys took a multi days class at a range and nothing fucked up, so red dots are the best and never mess up. 1) I understand the concern. I just see it as being completely overblown due to my experience with MRDS is pouring rain. 2) Yes, your whole bit about “needing 10 minutes to clean off your MRDS” is not, actually realistic. 3) The Burris FF is, in fact, sub-par equipment. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 11/24/2019 2:45:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By giantpune:
What it sounds like to me is Aaron and some people in this thread just really like red dots and have convinced themselves that they have absolutely zero shortcomings and are the answer to everything. Even when I had my pistol with a red dot on my in the real world and came across what I consider a bad thing, I get told its not realistic and I have bad equipment. Obviously those classes at the shooting range you guys are taking are more real world than me being out in the real world. The water on the glass moves the red dot's location. Refraction puts the dot high or low or off to either side. Even if you can barely make out a target through the thing, the gun ain't firing where you're trying to hit. But thats fine, cause some guys took a class at a shooting range and Aaron really likes red dots. No point even trying to have a conversation about it. No matter what reason anybody has for not wanting one, the answer will be that Aaron likes red dots and you guys took a multi days class at a range and nothing fucked up, so red dots are the best and never mess up. When concealed, it's a non issue if you are actually conscious enough to keep your gun concealed. Water on the emitter causes the starburst effect. Water on the lens is a non-issue. With either occurrence, you can still shoot the gun with accuracy, so I don't see what the fuss is about. You sound REALLY salty for no apparent reason. I was one of the guys that didn't like dots years ago, then I put one on my gun, put in the time, and now see the benefits of them. I don't do anything because an instructor on the internet says so. I do so, because I take the time to research why the instructor on the internet says so. If you want to live in your bubble, have at it. |
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Posted: 11/24/2019 5:21:11 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By giantpune:
What it sounds like to me is Aaron and some people in this thread just really like red dots and have convinced themselves that they have absolutely zero shortcomings and are the answer to everything. Even when I had my pistol with a red dot on my in the real world and came across what I consider a bad thing, I get told its not realistic and I have bad equipment. Obviously those classes at the shooting range you guys are taking are more real world than me being out in the real world. The water on the glass moves the red dot's location. Refraction puts the dot high or low or off to either side. Even if you can barely make out a target through the thing, the gun ain't firing where you're trying to hit. But thats fine, cause some guys took a class at a shooting range and Aaron really likes red dots. No point even trying to have a conversation about it. No matter what reason anybody has for not wanting one, the answer will be that Aaron likes red dots and you guys took a multi days class at a range and nothing fucked up, so red dots are the best and never mess up. empirical data / measurable improvement vs pearl clutching / what ifs |
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Posted: 11/28/2019 2:52:13 PM EDT
[#7]
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IA, USA
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Posted: 11/29/2019 11:21:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Decided to update.
After having a poor experience with my first MRDS mounted pistol, and selling the turd to be rid of it, I convinced myself to jump in with both feet again and give it another honest chance. My problem with the first try was switching platforms (from G19 to 320rx) and trying to adapt to the dot at the same time. Didn't work well and couldn't like it. The Romeo1 failing 400rds in didn't help either. So after a failed jaunt into Sig and CZ, I decided to pick up a Gen5 G19 MOS and throw a Type 2 Trijicon RM06 on top with some suppressor sights for lower 1/4 cowitness. Gotta admit I'm digging it. I'm only 500rds in and it's still a little slow. Accuracy inside 15yds is about equal to irons, haven't been outside that yet. Trying to start slow and close and move out. I will say that I need to work on my presentation more as the irons don't accurately portray just how far misaligned you are and the RMR brings this to light. Thinking of picking up either a optic cut slide or another 19MOS/RMR combo too for a spare (I always have 2 of whatever I carry). I'm giving it a thumbs up. |
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Posted: 11/30/2019 10:37:52 AM EDT
[#9]
On another note... Move from the DPP to SRO on my Carry Optics gun is proving to be worth the money.
The glass is somewhat better on the DPP, but otherwise the SRO is superior in every way and noticeably faster.  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/30/2019 9:48:08 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy:
On another note... Move from the DPP to SRO on my Carry Optics gun is proving to be worth the money. The glass is somewhat better on the DPP, but otherwise the SRO is superior in every way and noticeably faster. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/241349/IMG_3193_JPG-1178681.JPG |
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Posted: 12/1/2019 3:58:28 PM EDT
[#11]
The SRO is a competition optic, or so I'm told. If you drop the pistol and it lands on the SRO, the lens pops out.
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Posted: 12/1/2019 5:23:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Holdemdown:
The SRO is a competition optic, or so I'm told. If you drop the pistol and it lands on the SRO, the lens pops out. But - bigger window is a lot more forgiving regarding presentation issues |
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Posted: 12/2/2019 10:31:29 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Holdemdown:
The SRO is a competition optic, or so I'm told. If you drop the pistol and it lands on the SRO, the lens pops out. |
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Posted: 12/5/2019 5:33:02 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Henny:
I'm not sure if it's been answered in the last 9 or so pages, but yes! Yes one can be made! https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/10846/0F6679A3-FB68-44F5-9196-2C3E1254E350_jpeg-1172063.JPG I'll post these photos too, because there's always someone that has something to say about "Oh my god! No backup sights!" Yes there is. My buddy came up with this way to mount RDS I think. I haven't seen many like it other than ones that have been through his shop- He machines the slide to the rear, keeping the optic away from the ejection port and scribes a line on the rear of the RMR. I have a gold dot front sight. I just have to put the gold dot on the "post" for BUIS. Works like a charm! https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/10846/2D6D9E5B-71D0-4798-8016-147B6708E0FB_jpeg-1172066.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/10846/E50A59E6-D6EB-4B35-9555-61C83232F57E_jpeg-1172068.JPG I've been in the red dot game / RMRs from early on. I believe my one RMR still has "Patent Pending" on it. When I was fighting Lyme, my vision was horrible. The front sight and rear sight became one. After years of antibiotics and antimalarials, I feel great. Post Lyme, in conjunction with age, my eyes aren't what they used to be. Red dots work for me. And actually the "pumpkin on the post" type sight works well for my eyes too. My experience with RMRs hasn't been without downfalls. I've had to send RMRs back to the factory 3 times. 2 lost their ability stay on during recoil and one didn't hold elevation. Keep in mind, these sights had a lot of rounds shot from underneath them. The one I had on the above 17, by 2015 had 18k rounds through it I stopped counting after that. That sight is the one that lost its elevation and turned off during recoil. Trijicon replaced it with a type 2. Excellent service! I do know this, even with the deterioration of my vision the RMRs made me a better and faster shooter. My battle sounds similar to yours. This last decade has been a real PITA due to Lyme/Babesia infection. Ate the lenses right out of my eyes. Basically had to have cataract surgery among other procedures. My eyes are slow as crap now. About to try an RMR on my pistol. Your experience has given me more courage to spend the funds. Thanks! After reading through this thread I'm about to send my slide out to Primary Machine. With their milling do I still need to purchase a sealing plate for an RMR 06? And when if becomes time to change the batteries, is their a recommended torque value? |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 12/5/2019 5:46:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bmo419]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fongman:
After reading through this thread I'm about to send my slide out to Primary Machine. With their milling do I still need to purchase a sealing plate for an RMR 06? And when if becomes time to change the batteries, is their a recommended torque value? Torque value should be 15inch pounds for the screws. I believe that’s not accounting for loctite so keep that in mind. Don’t want to over torque the screws. |
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Posted: 12/5/2019 5:51:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fongman: @Henny My battle sounds similar to yours. This last decade has been a real PITA due to Lyme/Babesia infection. Ate the lenses right out of my eyes. Basically had to have cataract surgery among other procedures. My eyes are slow as crap now. About to try an RMR on my pistol. Your experience has given me more courage to spend the funds. Thanks! After reading through this thread I'm about to send my slide out to Primary Machine. With their milling do I still need to purchase a sealing plate for an RMR 06? And when if becomes time to change the batteries, is their a recommended torque value?  Welcome back from the hell of Lyme and Babesia! I had both of them plus a good dose of Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and a few other coinfections to round things out. It has been a hell of a journey. The weird thing is two days ago I picked up my iron sighted CZ75 and the front sight was clear as a bell! First time in probably 2 years? Today? It's back to the same old blurry mess on top of the slide. Once you get through the learning curve of the RDS, you'll enjoy it. Just don't get frustrated. You've been through tick borne diseases, I'm guessing you learned patience if you didn't have it before. 
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Posted: 12/5/2019 5:53:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Well I went ahead and took the plunge into the red dot world. Was hesitant for a long time but let me tell you. This thing is fun to shoot. Took some getting used to picking up the dot but after a lot of dry fire practice and actual shooting I’m getting a lot better.
Gen3 19 Jagerwerks slide cut w/ graphite black cerakote RM06 type 2 Dawson precision suppressor sights Apex trigger w/ bar, connector, and plunger 
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Posted: 12/5/2019 6:31:13 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bmo419: The sealing plate isn’t necessary but recommended for more water resistance. If you have a type 1 rmr I’d recommend the battlewerx anti flicker sealing plate. Torque value should be 15inch pounds for the screws. I believe that’s not accounting for loctite so keep that in mind. Don’t want to over torque the screws. Ordered an RMR 06 type 2 during cyber Monday sale. Guessing this plate would work? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00G8UINDC/?coliid=I18QHXYAUKSF1S&colid=3NU35Y4TFIAMV&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it |
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Posted: 12/5/2019 6:35:54 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Henny:
Wow! Hey, anything I can do to help you spend your money! Welcome back from the hell of Lyme and Babesia! I had both of them plus a good dose of Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and a few other coinfections to round things out. It has been a hell of a journey. The weird thing is two days ago I picked up my iron sighted CZ75 and the front sight was clear as a bell! First time in probably 2 years? Today? It's back to the same old blurry mess on top of the slide. Once you get through the learning curve of the RDS, you'll enjoy it. Just don't get frustrated. You've been through tick borne diseases, I'm guessing you learned patience if you didn't have it before.
I've really learned to judge my physical recovering in a Macro view. If I concentrate on the micro, day to day I'd be pulling what's left of my hair out. Up down, up down... I'm several years past treatment, and over time I am recovering, at least to a certain extent. Just thankful for each and every level of improvement. With the way my eyes work now, one focal point sounds great. |
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Posted: 12/5/2019 8:54:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Fooboy]
[#20]
The RMR G19 + TLR7 in its natural habitat.
It looks 300% better in stereoscopic real life. RM01 auto adjust is on point.  Attached File |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2019 11:12:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy:RM01 auto adjust is on point. |
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Posted: 12/8/2019 12:08:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Fooboy]
[#22]
Pitch dark room with white walls
3 paces flip on weapon light I can easily see dot Shoot I can even move closer and see it just fine. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 12/8/2019 5:42:52 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy:
Pitch dark room with white walls 3 paces flip on weapon light I can easily see dot Shoot I can even move closer and see it just fine. In total darkness, it will sometimes fail to adjust. There are many instances where this happened. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 12/11/2019 11:04:20 PM EDT
[#24]
One thing I notice is how much faster I am with some dots over others. Sure, the size and clarity of the glass matters, but what matters MOST to me is how low the optic is on the slide and the angle of the grip. Though I'm sure at some point, it could get too low and small (not sure about those TINY new docter QUIKsites--but who knows; I like that it's fully enclosed).
I have a SHIELD RMSc on my P365 (with an XL grip), and I can naturally pull it up and the dot is ALWAYS on target. I was starting from a low ready and just raising it up and making hits from 5Y to 15Y easily. Even at 15Y, my offhand shots were within a 3" group (just a few flyers made it out to 4"-5" inches), and my times were .4 to .7 with an average around .55-.65 seconds. As soon as my sight picture looked good, I'd just pull the trigger keeping it steady and make the hit--very few flyers and no low left!!...though after looking at pics of groups, I realized all the ammo (115, 124, and 147) was shooting a little low from 5Y to 15Y. BUT I have an RMR06.t2 on a G43X, and then two G19s with holosuns (a 407CO and a 508T). The height is basically the same on all of them, but the bigger glass makes me faster with the holosuns. My plan was to figure out which one I liked better and sell the other; however, the 407CO is VERY good for 25Y and in, BUT the 508T is tougher, and looks much cooler, which we all know from Garand Thumb (aka Daddy) is the most important thing. I have the most trouble with the RMR on the 43X or the G19. Part of it is that I need to break myself of presenting with the dot a bit too high, and part of it is that my sights are a bit too high covering so much of the glass--they have the entire rear notch exposed over the base of the RMR or Holosun. I got them ::cough:: Suarez because I read they were really low; however, I also got the lower-cowitness Suarez and they're too low (I bet they're perfect on MILLED glock slides though). I find myself lowering the front sight to "guide" me to the dot, but that's no way to shoot a red-dot. At 15Y, I wasn't quite as accurate and my times were more in the .75s-.8s...often 1/4-1/3 a second slower. ** I do think the RMR is magnifying the target a bit, which was nice at 15Y and beyond. :) -- NOTE: I don't think dot size is affecting things much. I have an astigmatism, which can sometimes cause me to see two dots (the lower left one is the real dot); however, about 80% of the time during the day (and at the range), the dots are plenty good with no doubling. I definitely love the 6-8MOA ring of the 407CO, but I wish it were a 4-5MOA (or 3.5-5MOA) ring. The SHIELD is a 4MOA and, like the 3.25MOA RMR, always seems to have a little bloom to it except in low light (the RMR could be set to manual if I wanted to though). I'm torn on the circle-dot of the 508T. The circle can be very busy inside of 20Y....I really think a 40-48MOA circle would work better than a 32MOA...the circle just helps you center it on stuff. But inside 20Y, the 32MOA just makes for a big and busy dot. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 12/29/2019 9:38:40 AM EDT
[#25]
Input from experienced rds users would be much appreciated...
I've been watching and reading about red dots for several years, several months ago I picked up a P365 XL thinking it would work well for a rds ready subcompact edc and try a dot once the gun was vetted, well... the gun's worked out well but Sig seems to be big on marketing and slow on delivery (surprise) with no Romeo Zero's in sight and the pricey alternative, an RMSC isnt in stock anywhere, 6 week's back ordered from the UK and my email inquiry's haven't been replied to so... Maple Leaf makes an adapter plate for the 365 XL, I'm thinking of trying that with a 507C thinking it would be a cost effective way to try a rds, likely it wouldn't be long term on the XL, maybe too large with no back up sight's but... If it seems to work for me, I'd send my P10C to Primary Machine and run the 507 on that and look for another option on the XL. Does this make sense ? Also, with AIWB do you notice much of a difference in printing / comfort or draw hindrance? Thanks in advance |
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Posted: 12/29/2019 10:12:52 AM EDT
[#26]
No difference in carry.
If you're testing this out - do it on a gun you shoot very well and get the dot as low as possible. |
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Posted: 1/1/2020 7:18:26 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DAVE_M: It washes out easily when used in a dark room with a WML. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 1/2/2020 10:22:33 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MadDogDan: Not in my experience. Using a Trijicon RMR RM01 Type 1 on a Glock 34 with a Streamlight TLR-1 HL (800 Lumens) and Surefire X300U-B (1000 Lumens) in rooms during low to no light the RMR would fail to adjust properly when the WML activated, leaving you with a dot that is nearly non-existent. I now only use the Trijicon RMR RM06 Type 2 where I can adjust to my desired brightness setting that will not wash out. Feel free to dismiss my anecdotal evidence, but ignoring the possibility is foolish. |
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Posted: 1/2/2020 11:09:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Fooboy]
[#29]
My type 2 RM01 worked great with my TLR1-HL (800L) as well as my new TLR7 (500L).
As you are going through the shoot house - were you fiddling with your RM06 buttons as you do that? No. You're gonna leave it somewhere in the middle that's a good enough compromise. In my limited testing the auto adjust does a fine job. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 1/2/2020 11:57:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy:
My type 2 RM01 worked great with my TLR1-HL (800L) as well as my new TLR7 (500L). As you are going through the shoot house - were you fiddling with your RM06 buttons as you do that? No. You're gonna leave it somewhere in the middle that's a good enough compromise. In my limited testing the auto adjust does a fine job. I'm not the only person that has had that experience, so take it for what it's worth. I'm simply adding to the discussion so that when someone who is uninformed decides to jump into the RDS game, they have some food for thought. If you disagree, that's fine, but your "works for me" opinion is not the opinion of others. |
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Posted: 1/2/2020 12:00:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DAVE_M: No, I leave it one click down from the highest setting. I'm not the only person that has had that experience, so take it for what it's worth. I'm simply adding to the discussion so that when someone who is uninformed decides to jump into the RDS game, they have some food for thought. If you disagree, that's fine, but your "works for me" opinion is not the opinion of others. That doesn't mean "if you haven't experienced it, you must argue as if it doesn't exist". |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 1/2/2020 12:04:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y: It goes into the category of "aware of possible limitations". Just another tool in the box. That doesn't mean "if you haven't experienced it, you must argue as if it doesn't exist". |
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Posted: 1/2/2020 12:26:59 PM EDT
[#33]
Fair points gentlemen.
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TN, USA
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Posted: 1/5/2020 5:34:12 PM EDT
[#34]
I am looking into giving this a try. I have red dots on some of my 22s
Are these optics “always on” or do they need to be turned on and off? When you carry is the dot turned on while holstered? |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 1/5/2020 6:01:30 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SRSTAdam21:
I am looking into giving this a try. I have red dots on some of my 22s Are these optics "always on" or do they need to be turned on and off? When you carry is the dot turned on while holstered? My Docter and Venom are always on, my DPP has auto-off function on but automatically comes back up with movement. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 1/5/2020 6:19:16 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 135Patriots:
It depends. Some are literally always on, others have a "shake-awake" feature that is very sensitive and fast. Batteries are cheap so replace them regularly. My Docter and Venom are always on, my DPP has auto-off function on but automatically comes back up with movement. |
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Posted: 2/15/2020 9:41:48 AM EDT
[#37]
Another one.
G19 gen 5 milled by Battlewerx (< 4 weeks including nitride) + RMR type 2 HRS  Attached File |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/15/2020 12:10:15 PM EDT
[#38]
Sweet, just sent my P10C to Primary Machine with a 507C...
anxious to say the least. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/15/2020 12:18:26 PM EDT
[#39]
Sweet, just sent my P10C to Primary Machine with a 507C...
anxious to say the least. |
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Posted: 2/15/2020 1:12:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jmt1271]
[#40]
I ordered and received a new Sig P365XL last week. It comes milled for optic.
I pre-ordered a new Holosun 507k and am hoping to get it in early April. This will be my first red dot equipped pistol. |
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Posted: 2/15/2020 1:16:46 PM EDT
[#41]
As to milled slides, is anyone having problems with screws backing out?
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/15/2020 1:32:50 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jmt1271:
I ordered and received a new Sig P365XL last week. It comes milled for optic. I pre-ordered a new Holosun 507k and am hoping to get it in early April. This will be my first red dot equipped pistol. I've got 750 rd's and about twice as much dry fire / presentations and I'm sold on red dot's....big time. The Shield is working out fine but, I expect I'll put on a 407K once vetted. As the thread title say's, The future is now |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 2/15/2020 3:37:52 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By simple06:
As to milled slides, is anyone having problems with screws backing out? Ensure you are using quality machine screws. Apply threadlocker (Loctite 242 or Vibratite VC-3). Torque to spec. |
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Posted: 2/15/2020 6:06:08 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DAVE_M: No. Ensure you are using quality machine screws. Apply threadlocker (Loctite 242 or Vibratite VC-3). Torque to spec. |
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Posted: 2/16/2020 7:57:47 PM EDT
[#45]
I'm in the game now, for betterer or worser.
Played with it today and it was fun. 
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Posted: 2/16/2020 9:08:16 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
I'm in the game now, for betterer or worser. Played with it today and it was fun. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/221816/1-1279064.png |
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Posted: 2/16/2020 9:27:40 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Keith1980: Nice. Who did the work? |
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Posted: 2/16/2020 11:14:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Fooboy]
[#48]
...
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Posted: 3/8/2020 7:06:28 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 3/8/2020 7:12:22 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/113559/16126A6A-21B1-4D49-92F1-0D211ACE3DDA_jpe-1307735.JPG
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