[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 1911 or h&k (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/23/2005 7:13:01 AM EDT
| spr armory 1911 black stainless or h&k usp in.45 for my first handgun and why? |
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So very, very different. HK is an SA-DA with a poly lower. They both have about the same grip angle, but the HK has wider grips and is harder to conceal. Of the two, the HK is usually more forgiving of ammo types and abuse. As a first gun, I would go with the HK, simply because it is easy to take down, easy to clean, and likely to be 100% out of the box. That said, I like shooting my 1911s better then almost all my USPs. (The Match rocks.) |
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I own a fulsize USP 45, USP 45 Expert and a Wilson CQB 1911. It is very easy for me to teach a new shooter with a 1911 because of the trigger. Historically speaking 1911s have or could be finiky with ammo, mags, etc... but this is history for the most part. The USP 45 is a awesome and tough out of the box handgun. The down side for a new shooter with the USP is the double action trigger. (First shot has longer travel) But you can carry a USP "Cocked & Locked" like a 1911; though I know no one that does this. Also after your use to the USP trigger this issue is history. On a side note: the USP Expert has a different trigger which is an improvement and can be put into any USP. |
Quality control, finish, accuracy, reliability, ease of maintenence/more forgiving, and that about does it. I've owned 2 springfields, similar to the one he is talking about. I no longer own them, but kept all 4 of my HK's. Oh yes, I am a 1911 guy too. But there really isn't much of a comparison between the model he is discussing and the HK USP for an all around firearm that doesn't need to be concealed. |
| I started with an HK and ended up with a 1911. A 1911 that runs is just as good as an HK. The trick is to get one that runs or to know a little to get it to run. Trigger is much better on the 1911 even on the mil-spec Springy's then the HK. Plus there's a sense of nostalgia that the 1911 has that no other pistol does. |
+1  If your only choice is an H&K or SA 1911, I'd say go 1911. You will love the 1911, and eventually customize it, and then buy another one, and so on...... Once you got the 1911 bug it's hard to shake. The H&K is a good gun, just too much $$$ in my opinion. The Glock 21 is a great gun and the hi-caps are cheap! 
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Take into account that mags and accesories for HK guns are pretty costly. Around here a USP45 mag costs around $50 bucks for a 10 rounder. In my eyes thats nucking futs. Don't get me wrong though. HK makes one hell of a weapon, and I'll get another one in the future. But I did sell my USP45 and bought some 1911's. In my opinion 1911's are more comfortable, acurate and sexier than the HK's. But the bottom line is you won't be happy till you by both. |
Well, you now know one person who carries like this. I installed a variant 9 detent plate and that gun is always cocked and locked. As to the original question, I too own both and I think the USP is about the best "first gun" a person could buy. The USP is a gun you can grow into. As a newbie, you'll probably go through a number of stages with your gun. Most new gun owners are pretty paranoid of a loaded gun. If they choose to keep it loaded, they usually don't want it cocked. They want it decocked and want the safety on. The HK allows for this. As you get used to it, you'll realize that decocked and safety on is redundant. At that point, you'll probably still want it decocked, but you'll leave the safety off. You may even decide that you like the consistancy of a double action only trigger pull. If that is the case, its a simple matter of replacing the detent plate in the USP to make it to the mode. Then again, you may later decide that double action sucks and you just don't want to use it. No problem with the USP. Just change to a V9 detant plate and it will no longer decock. You can now carry cocked and locked. The USP is versitile, strong, reliable, accurate and has a fairly high capacity. The trigger pull sucks, but as mentioned, you can fix that by having the match trigger from the Tactical model installed. I'm a big 1911 fan, but for your first or your only , the USP is hard to beat. |
Someone please correct me if I am wrong - but a match trigger can only go into a full size HK. Teddy Jacobson is capable of doing wonders with the compact triggers from what I hear. Good luck |
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I have sold off both of my USP's in favor of a couple of Glocks and a CZ-75. I wanted to like the HKs, I really did. But I could never get used to the trigger reset. The Expert, may be a different story, but based on my own experience in dry firing them at the gun store, I really wasn't that impressed. YMMV. They are fine guns, and would make excellent defensive guns. But, I like to play games with my guns, and I use the same guns that I play games with for self defense. If I can shoot fast and accurately on the clock with something, I assume I have a leg up on shooting fast and accurately when scared. I won't ever trade away either of my 1911's, Kimber Gold Match and Colt 1991A1. Both have been flawless, and they have worked well when playing games. |
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I do not have both but my grandpa has a Springfield 1911 Mil Spec. Its a very basic 1911. Sprinfield has great customer service. How do I know? Lol, because just like everyone here said the gun had some failure to extracts when he first got it. Springfield sent it back and in over a year of shooting (~3,000 rounds) not a single problem at all. It's nice, has a good trigger and is very slim which in my opinion would make it better for carrying. I am 16 and two years ago when I was 15 my parents bought me an HK USP .40 S&W. It was may first centerfire pistol. As being non-biased as I can be I can say that I honestly like my USP a bit more. It's not just because its my weapon and I am used to it, as I shoot my grandfathers 1911 each time we go to the range, its the way the handgun feels. I can strip my USP in a matter of seconds while my Former Marine Grandfather takes considerably longer than I do (its not just age). Re-Assembley is a chore with the 1911 but the USP is simple and easy. Cleaning is the same with the slide, frame, barrel, slide stop, spring assembley. I love my USP. The USP has sights that are contored in a pyramid shap which guides your eyes effortlessly to the white dots. It is simple things like that that make the gun a neat piece. The higher magazine capacity is a blessing for me as it saves my thumbs on those long range trips when alot of mags are taken. I spend less time reloading and more time shooting which is always a big plus. Comparing the two gun side to side I find that both of us are moe accurate with the USP. Granted a pistol isn't very accurate and at my skill level I shouldn't be able to tell a difference in accuracy but I can. Unlike my grandpa's 1911 my USP hasn't choked a bit on over 6,000 rounds I have fed it. For people who say the .40 S&W isn't good I can attest that it isn't. I took my pistol on a Racoon hunting trip and it took me 5 rounds to put down a fairly large Racoon using 165gr. Whchester White Box Ammunition. The first shot hit the animal in its neck the others were body shots. After 4 rounds it was down but I fired anyway because I saw the animal was jerking around (it wasn't alive just muscle contractions). Hope this somehow helps you. |
| I feel you should get the H&K. The H&K will be easier to take down and clean. It is a safe gun with a decent trigger, mabey a little on the heavy side, but good for HD. The H&K is accurate, very reliable, great finish and will hold more re-sale value. Find a range were you can rent and shoot both. Then sleep on it and make your purchase. |
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HK comes with 2-3 mags, depending on model, and you don't have to chuck the POS mags and buys wilsons, novaks, CMCs or shooting stars right off the bat. |
...I thought the fact that he looks like a tool would have given it away, but I guess not)
Yeah. I turn 17 in November (5th) This year I am still 16 because I havn't reached the age of 17 yet because it isn't November 5th. So assuming this year marks the begginning of my 17th year of life (November 5th), 17-2=15. I know it didn't make any sense before because you didn't know my birthday, but now it should! |
Dude its true. Try it out and you should have similar results if you get the same shot placement I did. I don't understand why no one believes that I actually did this. Perhaps none of you guys have hunted with your pistols but this is true. Maybye the Whchester range ammo is weak and underpowered. |
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I've owned many many different handguns, and a 1911 was my first one. I went thru many other guns over the years, like "wundernines", and other "latest and greatest" guns that came-and-went with trendy types. After all was said and done, I came back to the 1911 pistol for one simple reason. The 1911 is the best pistol ever made. Maybe if quality levels of the Springfield are an issue with some, then there are other 1911 pistols which will have plenty of quality level for anyone. But that is not an issue with the basic design, which is still unsurpassed in almost 100 years of trying. |
But you do have to buy Wolff magazine springs, at least in my experience. The factory mags consistently failed to lock the slide back on an empty mag. This means the mag springs are weak. Weak mag springs lead to malfunctions! Malfunctions lead to suffering! Suffering leads to death!!  Many other people on the HK Pro boards have had similar issues. It's simply UNACCEPTABLE to me, especially considering the price they charge for their mags!You can’t go wrong with either gun though. I just traded my USP Tactical off to another board member. I decided to splurge and get a Springfield TRP Operator, and from what I hear I will not be disappointed. Hopefully I’ll have it by Tuesday next week (waiting for my dealer’s FFL to arrive since he procrastinated on sending it). I wanted the full length dust cover model, and the TRP Operator is supposed to be one sweet, accurate, and reliable gun. In my experience, the USP is a great gun. The higher end models have much better triggers. If you are going to get a base model, get the match trigger upgrade! I only ever had two problems with my USP, and they were both magazine related. The first is the previously mentioned weak factory mag springs. The 2nd was I had a magazine SPLIT open at the top while loading it to 12 rounds. However, CDNN replaced it with a new factory magazine so all is well. I respectfully disagree with Combat_Jack on the mag issue. I shouldn’t have to replace the springs in $50 mags after only putting 24 rounds through them. They also shouldn’t be manufactured in such a way as they can split open like mine did if the welds on the back are weak. However as to the pistol itself, I was accurate enough for my tastes with it and I even used it as my carry piece every day in a VersaMax 2 holster. Honestly I was just looking for something new, a bit more concealable (I don't like pocket guns), and I don't have the patience to save up the cash to buy a 2nd gun. Good luck in your decision.
I think he knocked you because it sounded like you weren't hunting and it sounds like you indiscriminately blasted a racoon. If you can't get a kill shot in the first shot, practice more. |
H&K makes some wonderful products. I have owned both a FS and a Compact .45 - I liked the FS. And people should know how to detail strip everything they own as a matter of self reliance - it is a mechanical device made by humans - it will fail at some point. An "endorsement" from a man that is an out and out antigunner and whom did not fire an actual projectile during the prep and filming for that movie ....... The guy is a sack of shit, and I would LOVE to see him get hit by a bus! Good luck |
You're dead wrong and don't know what you're talking about in regards to making the film. He fired plenty of projectiles. You should watch the "making of" documentary. He was trained by a former SAS guy that did the firearms coordination/training for Heat as well. All of the actors with weapons shot their firearms extensively in training whether they shot a gun in the movie or not. |
Agreed. You don't want to be struggling with 1911 idiosynchrasies on your first gun. But I would recommend something in a lighter caliber for a first handgun! USP 9mm maybe. |
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I sold my USPT to finance an Arsenal Ak, but I sold my USPT over my 1911 not because I liked one over the other. It was a matter of economics, parts for the 1911 were much easier to acquire as well as cheaper, and magazines were not so damned expensive. Since all of my guns are shooters, I want to have a large surplus of replacement parts and magazines. But if your the kind that likes the exotic not so often seen weapon....go with the H&K. |
 Is this an argument for or against. Could go either way depending on you point of view about Cruise. From what I've seen of him lately I would say it's an argument against.
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