Posted: 6/14/2005 4:57:38 AM EDT
| I know this is a huge topic, but I'm buying my first handgun an XD, this will be my CCP weapon, but I don't know what caliber to go with. I know 9mm is older and cheaper, and .40 has more stopping power, but a lil more expensive. Are there any accuracy issues, or how do they group? Recoil is a nonissue, I'm a strong guy. |
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I'm a '9 is fine' type of person. If what you're saying is that the price of ammo could effect how much practice time you put into your new gun - and that you realize that the most important thing in defensive shooting is shot placement, not bullet size - then let me say that I am in, and have been in, the same boat for a long time. However, the price on .40 seems to be coming down as the years go buy. I remember the days when it just wasn't worth it to reload .38 special because you could buy it cheaper. 9mm is like that right now. Cheap and easy to shoot. If someone could prove to me that a .40 self-defense round was significantly better at putting bad guys down than the same package in 9mm I'd probably change - but that hasn't happened yet. I'm still a fan of quick, multiple hits whether I'm shooting a .45acp or 9, it's just that I can do it quicker with a 9 and without changing magazines as often due to the fact that a G17 holds 18 rounds. The truth is all handgun rounds suck at stopping power. The hope, the rumor, the legend of the superiority of the 40 S&W's "manstopper abilities" over the 9mm as a self defense round - I just haven't bought into that illusion yet. |
Couldn't have said it better . . . . +1 |
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Most of shooting is personal pref. What gun. What load. etc get what you like and shoot the best. Practice practice and more practice. I have been able to carry now for about 20 years. Were I have worked and now with a permit, You will be limited in what you carry to some extent(size). Load it wih a good hollow point and it should do well. A 38 spec. has put alot of bad guys down. Myself my carry now is a Glock 19 with corbon 115gr +P hollowpoints X15 OOOOOOOO by the way did I say Practice? |
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The only pistols I own are: Glock 17 Glock 26 Beretta 92 Mini Uzi All are 9mm. Humans are very fragile, anything can kill. All guns, every single one, is a compromise. You just have to decide what exactly you are comfortable with compromising. Personally, I'd rather have a lot of 9mm than few .45 You have to decide what you want to compromise, a .40 is a compromise of compromises. More capacity than a .45, like a 9mm, but a larger hole than a 9mm. Choose what you want to compromise on, because no matter which gun you choose, you've sacraficed something (and not just money) for peace of mind. There is no "The Round" or "The Gun"  
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"stopping power" - 40 does not have any more stopping power than a 9mm - that is a wives tale - all handguns .22 - 44 mag are poor defensive weapons. Some are marginally better than others. However in the end it comes down to putting the rounds on target and continuing to fire (and strike the target) until the threat is neutralized. Remember "a handgun is what I use to fight my way to a long gun". Accuracy - is largely a function of barrel quality and cartridge quality - good bullets / good powder and primers and CONSISTANT loads. As someone that carrys - you concern should focus on an accuracy standard that is practical - a fist sized group at 10 yrds. Recoil - strength got nothing to do with it. In fact what you want to work on is a very neutral grip in which the gun is able recoil freely in you hands - do not in anyway shape or form try to muscle the gun to counter act recoil. 9mm is cheaper - not worth reloading in fact when you factor in your time. As such and in light of your questions - buy a 9mm - do you best to shoot no more than 150 rounds each time you go to the range. Go to the range with a plan of one specific thing you want to work on each time. Try to go to the range at least once a week for one year - that is 5k + rounds in one year. Seek out a group of comp shooters (IDPA or IPSC) and try to be taken in under their wing. Shooting is (esp if you are going to carry) is more about gun handling skills than just standing in one place and banging away. Learn to safely draw / reholster, draw from and exit a vehicle (with a seat belt on) without sweeping yourself or the passenger. Learn to slice the pie. Shoot in low light / no light. Clear jams. Reload. This is just scratching the surface - however, and IMNSHO - if you want to carry - you owe it to you, those that care about you, me and every other law abiding gun owner / concealed weapons holder to not just be able to pass some mickey mouse exam - but actually be GOOD with a gun. Good luck Good luck |
Hell yeah! And I've got nothing against the .40 at all - if circumstances were different (I worked in LE, or had access to a dillon all set up to reload 40) I could easily see being into it - but as things are right now, 9 is working out real well. Just don't ever think you're selling yourself short by going with it - that's a bad attitude. Also, if I was stinkin' rich I'd shoot nothing but .357 SIG, 10mm, and 500 S&W all day! |
I believe that there's much "ballistic overlap" between some of the best 9mm loads and some of the .40 S&W loads. However, the fact remains that the forty will throw bigger, wider bullets at speeds similar to the 9mm. I'm not implying (as some do) that the 9x19 is the weak little sister to the .40. Fact is, being able to hit center mass of your target is more important, when considering 9mm vs .40 S&W. |
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Wal Mart Win 9mm 115 gr FMJ 100 pack: $11.4? Win .40s&w 165 gr FMJ 100 pack: $16(+/-) More practice. Surplus ammo available in 9mm also. I've only fired a few .40's, and I only shot well with/liked shooting one of them. It'll take me a while to want to buy in .40s&w since I've done well with 9mm and .45 so far. |
+1 as well, handgun rounds are not and will never be equal to a rifle round. The rifle will always carry more energy (and therefore more potential to do damage) due to greater velocities/greater powder charges, not to mention the rifle is definitely going to be easier to hit with (shot placement). Even really hot loads like full-house 10mm and .44 Mag are known for overpenetrating and/or being so hard to control that only a very, very large man with a lot of professional training can make them effective. Same reason why .357 hunting loads are not generally recommended for defense. I'd stick with the 9mm and a good hollowpoint at standard veocities, I'd only go +P if I'm concerned with having to shoot through things (not likely for anybody but military and police, and AP isn't legal). Something else I've heard of regarding ammo selection is that you're supposed to use slightly lighter bullets in the winter than you do the summer because of temperature changes affecting bullet velocities. Besides, if 9mm was somehow a really horrible stopper compared to all the other pistol rounds out there, nobody (esp not military forces) would continue to use it, it would be phased out for defensive use like .22 Short was (actually invented in the 19th century as a defensive round). Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of rounds like .45 and 10mm, but 9mm does the job and hotter handgun rounds don't offer much real measurable advantage over the 9mm and are definitely harder to shoot and more expensive (in ammo costs, weapon costs and how long it takes for the weapon to become really beat-up). |
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You guys should see the ballistics on these two rounds fired through common media. If you're life is on the line....go .40 or go home. 9mm for plinking and high mag count. Simple solution to all of this: GLOCK M-22 .40 S&W  Durable Easy to field strip It beats the XD over weather resistance and rust protection More support surrounding the Glock ie accessories High mag count 15+1 .40 rounds vs the XD 12+1 9mm Glock 17 17+1 vs XD 15+1 I have shot, carried, and owned both said guns and sold the XD for more Glock goodies  Good luck in your search. Pete |
I agree on getting a Glock, but if your going to go big pony up and go BIG. Get a .45, otherwise "9 is fine". In ten or so years we will really know just how good the famed 40 Short and Weak stacks up compared to older standard rounds. I dont expect anything earth shaking. I am in no way saying that 40 S&W isnt more powerfull than 9MM, but twice nothing is still nothing. I own plenty of 9MM and .45s I just dont think the 40 S&W's small power advantage is worth the extra recoil. 40 S&W hits a little harder than 9MM but kicks like my .45  not a good trade if you ask me.
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In a full sized pistol why not get the .40? That said if you are looking to get a compact pistol for concealed carry then strongly consider the 9mm. Handling the recoil is only part of the equation. Which do you think you would shoot better? I can shoot a smaller 9mm better than a smaller 40, and certainly better than a small .45. It isn't with the first shot that there is a difference for me. I am equally slow out of the holster with all calibers It is on subsequent shots I start to really have issues. I have a shot timer, and I use the damn thing. I can get a second shot off just as fast with a .45 as a 9mm, but the difference will be where the bullets strike on the paper!Anyway, the 9mm has a place, and the smaller and subcompact models are where it shines in my opinion. YMMV, Best of luck and enjoy what you get. Cheesebeast |
| I was talking to a gun store owner, and he said the 9mm win ranger +P+ had the same characteristics of a 357 sig. I think that's great. If I want a regular 9mm load I can load the reg 9mm cart. If I want more punch add the +p+. It's kind of like having a multi caliber gun. The 40 is just a 40. I also heard they don't use 40s in the service, if that means anything to you. |
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From a now famous and fairly informative post on tactical forums: www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000581  Keep in mind that again; functional reliability, controlability, and accuracy should outweigh an individual's concern for the perceived terminal effect of any handgun caliber or bullet design. |
And not to start a shitstorm, but look at the two bullets that have the smallest wound channel. 9mm. I like the .40, but I have a 5" XD-40 so I don't have the problems some people do with recoil. I think the train of thought people use when picking a .40 is the same train of thought people use when choosing a .45. They want a bigger bullet, and will sacrifice a few rounds to get more percieved power. But there is another way to look at it, too. The people that buy the .40 could be the same people that want capacity, but don't put as much of a premium on bullet size, and therefore don't choose a .45. I don't really know. I like the .40, and I'm not much of a fan of the 9mm, but it seems to work too. Just my $.02, YMMV WIZZO |
Don't worry about starting the shit storm (it's began a long time ago!)  From the quoted post:
There's just not that much difference in those rounds - that's the meat of the matter. Sure, the bigger bullets displace more (dur!) - but we're just looking at jello here! That's one of the problems I have with these people - you're not looking at a temporary wound cavity, it's just friggin jello! And on top of that, it's just a jello experiment set up by the FBI to mimic the arm of one particular Miami bank robber back on a day of one horrible shoot out. Now for some reason it's the best thing we've got? What's crazy is that this if the shit the ammunition manufacturers are designing their bullets around - think about that next time you're enjoying a fine jello product for dessert! So yeah, there ain't no replacement for displacement, but temporary wound channels are well, temporary - you cannot rely on them to stop an opponent. And until the day they make 7.62x51 fit into a 1911 frame, all pistol calibers will enjoy the same weakness – they’re pathetic manstoppers. What wound ballisticians don't often address is an individual shooter's split times and accuracy capabilities with different calibers (well, they do address it - but usually as a footnote). Given that there's a decent list of very good (as in functional and reliable) jello inspired rounds available on the consumer market - pick the one you can shoot most accurately the fastest and start practicing. Because that's the only thing in the end that will give you any confidence in your self-defense equipment selection. |
Sounds like a classic case of somoeone who does not understand gelatin testing or why it is used. I agree faster and more is better. Gelatin results are meant to simulate HUMAN TISSUE for evaluation purposes. Its a HUMAN TISSUE AVERAGE not jello. Temp cavity is also easy to see, dont see what you are trying to say about temp cavity not being addressed in gelatin. |
Umm, no - that would be the average dentist worshipper over on the tactical forums that you're talking about. The point I was making about “temporary wound cavities” is that a) there is little significant difference between said cavities in the quoted photograph, and that, b) there’s no proof that temporary cavities have any effect on handgun “stopping power” on either jello blocks or human beings (unless you want to get into Highway Patrol lore). “Temporary wound cavities” in blocks of ballistic gelatin make for great picture spreads in handgun oriented magazines. That’s their only contribution to self-defense. Permanent cavity destruction of organ, muscle, and bone is the only aspect one should hope to have the smallest amount of control over during their early hardware selection phase.
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Winchester 9mm 115 Gr 100 pack is only $11.40 ?? I just bought 500 rounds of that ammo up here in Canada and each 100 rounds is roughly $18 us... I gotta move down south .. Cheap ammo 
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But ammo choice for defensive purposes is rarely a personal preference choice. There is data out there. Those corbons are not the ideal round to be carrying in that gun. Gold Dots or Rangers would serve better. |
Yep. I have yet to see any testing where Cor-bons were actually as good as it's competitors. They're always at the bottom. |