I was just posting a reply in another thread on this forum about the Hudson H9 and something occurred to me. To separate themselves from the rest of the pack Hudson is marketing their H9 pistol as a uniquely designed, well engineered, smooth operating, and soft recoiling 9mm pistol. Hudson highlights two design features in particular to support their marketing claims: 1) a low bore axis to help control recoil, and 2) a recoil system that goes well beyond the typical recoil spring to further soften recoil.

I have been aware of the Hudson for months, and I don't know why it took me until today to realize this, but HK brought a pistol to market decades ago that sought to accomplish the same thing: 1) low bore axis to control recoil, and 2) a recoil system that goes well beyond the typical recoil spring to further soften recoil. It is called the HK P7 series of pistols, the P7M8 and P7M13. The last digit signifies the number of rounds the magazine holds. There is a single stack (P7) and double stack version (P13).

Like the Hudson, the P7 was also made of all steel, is striker fired, has an amazing single action trigger, and costs over $1K. I would suggest HK did this job already and did a much more efficient and elegant job than Hudson. HK did it with a gas piston that retards recoil. But that piston fits very neatly where a typical recoil spring would go, and does not require a huge dustcover up front. You want to talk about low bore axis? Show me a pistol that has a lower bore axis than a P7. You can't.

You can also carry the P7. It is a perfect sized carry gun. The Hudson is huge and heavy. I don't see anyone carrying an H9.

I haven't shot the Hudson, but I regret selling my P7 all those years ago. I might have to pick one up.

I guess I don't see how doubling the size of the recoil system is a step forward for handgun design. Especially when it was designed for the already soft shooting 9mm and no one was really complaining about recoil.

Well, you are not wrong. The P7 really is a stellar pistol.

P7 is my favorite pistol of all time so much so I own two PSP's.  I still want a M13 but cannot bring myself to drop 2-5Gs for the pistol though.

Same

I've often wondered if making and marketing an aluminum version, or polymer, would be a hit or not with the CCW crowd.  Biggest grip people often have about the P7 is its weight.

I like everything about it and to change it would change how good it is all around.  HK should reproduce it especially the M13 and make improvements on the reset of the trigger is my biggest gripe.

Shall I tell you about my P7M13 I bought unfired-in-the-box for $1300?  

That might be the SS9 I've been looking for.

Duty carried P7m8.    Heavy, heats up, rounds limited, unique firing system prone to user error (not squeezing), many small intricate parts.  Also superbly accurate, great trigger, reliable (until it breaks).  A gun whose time passed 30 years ago, if it ever really had a time.  

I understand the collector interest in them, but the worship as some kind of wonder pistol is misplaced in my opinion.  I have carried SIG 228 and 229 and a G19, all worlds better as duty pistols than the P7M8.  I would rather duty carry my M&P shield than the H&K.  Again, my opinion, but based on actually duty carrying the above pistols.

But damn they are cool!

I hate you!  Pics?  That is pretty awesome deal I got a PSP very excellent condition for $525.

I agree wholeheartedly as I have been in the same boat- carried a P7M8 and M13. While cool pistols , the Sig and Glock were vastly better duty/working guns

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I have a p7 but rarely carry it. Too heavy for the low round count. M&p shield is a better chose for me.

I will buy a h9 tho

My P7 is my favorite carry gun. I don't know how but it melts into me better than anything else I carry. Possibly b/c it's the only gun I carry in leather.

I would love an M13. Even more, I'd love to have a longslide M13 just to be different.

Heavy? Not at all. It soaks up recoil.

Heats up? I've run multiple mags thru mine with no issues. Are you shooting 5-6 mags in a row or something?

Rounds limited? As is a Sig P-225, S&W Shield or a host of other small carry pistols. But it IS flat and concealable.

User error? Say what? One squeezes the grip in order to hang onto the gun. Never have I experienced what you describe.

Small intricate parts? Name a gun that doesn't have them inside its internals.

Breaks? How many thousands of rds have you fired thru one until it broke? They're actually designed to run even IF the extractor breaks. Name another gun who can do that, please.

Time has come & gone? Since when has quality, reliability and superb accuracy "come and gone"?

WTF? Double tap.

I don't have pics, sorry. It looks like every other P7M13 though. My LGS owner is hot after it. Every time he sees me, he asks about it..........  

Any blow back pistol will extract the spent case without the extractor claw being intact.
That's how the blow back cycle works after all.

If I could not shoot more than 5 mags worth of ammo at a range session because the pistol transmitted too much heat into the grip frame, like P7s do, I dump that turkey of a design faster than a ummm, hot potato, and I certainly would not pay $2K+ for the experience in the first place.

I had a P7M13 and it was obvious after one range trip that it wasn't going to suit my purposes.   Uncomfortably hot after 3 mags.  I've heard of folks who took them to training classes had to take two of them and a cooler to let one cool down while they were shooting the other.  

I could have rationalized my way past that, but the real problem was that mine required jacketed projectiles.  Attempts to shoot copper plated or coated lead would have the piston seizing in the chamber, freezing the slide which would have to be beat off the gun so that the chamber could be cleaned.  And this would happen after 5 or 6 mags.  

I don't know if mine was unique, but since all I shoot is plated, coated, or just plain lead, I had no reason to keep it around.  And with the unusual manual of arms and the heating issue, it wasn't something I wanted to keep around.

I will say they are a well engineered curio, and probably effective enough for someone who dedicates themselves to its idiosyncrasies.

A proper belt/holster combo will solve the weight issue. Everyone knows that.

The OP is correct about the HK P7 series pistols.

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My experience was very different. I carried my P7M13 pistols on/off duty for several years before our agency adopted a stricter, more limiting list of authorized weapons. The M13 were the best and most accurate pistols I have ever carried and qualified with. I've carried on/off duty a Sig P220, Sig P229, Sig P226, Glock 17, CZ 75 (pre B), HK P7M13, HK USP (I really hated that one with that crap DAO trigger, yeah it was issued with DAO and not the LEM), and a few others. The P7M13's beat all of the others as far as accuracy, reliability, and trigger. The CZ 75 came in at a close 2nd. I sold all of the other pistols (except for the USP which was a service owned pistol) and kept the P7M13's. Now that I'm retired I carry the M13's and rotate with a 1911 10mm.

Heavy-. For an 8 round gunit is heavy.  Try carrying one on a duty belt for twelve hours with the 4 extra mags you have to carry
User error-. Witnessed multiple times with merely the stress of a combat course.  Gun won't go off?  Oh yeah squeeze the grip unlike any other gun
Heats up-. Yes I did run a lot of mags in a row, many more than 5 or 6.  It's called training.
Small parts- Really?  



Breaks-. We lost one of our own due to the one of those small parts breaking at the worst possible time.  Our armorer's would have been the first to tell you about the problems associated with the gun especially when run hard.  Maintenance intensive.  

I  know what I know from actually using the gun hard, not from admiring it as a technical exercise.   A Garand is a fine, well made, accurate weapon whose time has come and gone.  Doesn't stop me from admiring it and the P7M8 for that matter.  Love it all you want, I love it too as a piece of my personal history,  but in my opinion, they are many better alternatives for duty or carry.  You of course can do as you wish.  Because 'Merica

True to a point.  Weight is still weight no matter what way you slice it and the laws of physics don't suddenly change.  An all steel gun will be heavier and less comfortable to carry than a lighter alloy framed or polymer framed version of the same gun.

Just because ...

That's great that you guys love your P7s and P13s. But given the objective of Hudson, to make a smooth shooting low recoiling 9mm with a low bore axis, it seems HK took care of this long ago, and certainly did a more efficient and elegant job of it. Is doubling the size of the front end of a pistol to contain a recoil spring for a soft shooting round really progress? or the FUTURE of handguns?

I've never figured out the affection for the P7. Yeah, it a unique piece of German engineering but it just strikes me as kind of an odd gun. To each his or her own.

Many of us admire complete reliability and exceptional accuracy. Others prefer Rugers. To each his own.

Have you shot one?

I had one back when they came in used.  Great guns.

The only drawback is if you use it for CCW.  The operating system is so different that other guns out there you really need to have it as your only CCW firearm

I can pick up a Glock, XD, M&P, etc... and they are basically the same.  

When I took my P7 to the range I had to stop and think that I had to squeeze the grip to cock the gun.  

That would cause problems in a gun fight. If that is all you carry and practice with no problem.

Just an observation on my part. Others may not have the same issue.

Hi Trooper!

I see what you did with the ammo

"I wish someone would come out with one like it" is something I hear about P7's.

They did. The Walther CCP. Here's a review: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/jeremy-s/gun-review-walther-ccp/

Walther used the concept, dumped the toggle action, and made it a polymer CCW gun. Sales are slow. Nobody cares. it's not even mentioned in P7 threads until some jerk brings it up and then it gets no conversation. The post is ignored.

I believe it's because it failed to look like a P7, for the most part it's got a tall looking slide, the gun doesn't appear to have the lowest bore axis possible, and it's been beaten heavily with the polymer gun ugly stick shared by Remington and Ruger.

As far as a retro version coming on the market it was noted in the day the P7 slide cost as much as an complete new Glock, which meant superlative German Engineering once again triumphed over Accounting and Marketing in the boardroom. It was a contract pistol for the Government, getting issued to the Border Patrol, in an era when a gun was seen as dangerous to the public at large if it was loaded cocked and locked. So they invented a gun that could be loaded but carried "hammer down" and you had to "thumb it back" to shoot it. That's what the toggle cocking does.

It's an engineering feat, yes, but it's not something that has been universally adopted. If anything the gun sold despite that feature, and note closely, nobody else ever copied it or even tried to put it on the market with any other gun. I think it points to when HK finally "jumped the shark" with their engineering excellence and their decline as a innovative gun maker began.

As for a CCW gun, it's a great one given the small package. Getting hot at the range means nothing, it's not a range gun and complaints about it ring hollow. Shoot a duty sized gun for that. Nobody worries about the pocket .380's being difficult on the range (are you listening 1Gen LCP owners?) so it's performance there with multiple mags is exactly to be expected. It's like complaining the AR15 isn't suited for shooting 1,000 rounds in a ten minute session on the range. Well, no, it's not made to do that. It's being abusive.

Looking at them in the early '80s, and seeing the used trade ins for sale later in the decade for lower than $300, I passed. All because of that oddball toggle cocking. I didn't miss anything, any more than not buying a Subaru Brat vs a Jeep Cherokee. I have owned both and quirky has it's costs. It was noted even then if you chose to carry the P7 then it was an exclusive decision - to maintain handling proficiency under stress you had to focus on it and it alone. Those who like to rotate a carry gun daily or weekly would be at a serious disadvantage. It's already considered bad tactics to change constantly from a DA striker to a SA with safety and the SA haters will be more than quick enough to bring it up.

Nope, the P7 is like an attractive wife who is extremely jealous of anyone who might compete for attention. That's not a bad thing when the relationship is good, but never cross that line in the sand.

Would I like to see that low profile slide on an alloy or polymer lower, sure. Hammer fired SA with safety. I'm surprised someone like Keltec hasn't done it already. Going to a hammer will reduce the slide length almost an inch and make it even more concealable, put the operation of the gun back in the mainstream, and if it had the slick modern looks without the tacticool overdone styling - appropriate for a concealed carry gun that has to be drawn from under clothing - then it would likely be a major sales maker.

It could even give the Browning link a run for it's money.

The P7 is a cool gun, but I don't regret selling mine one bit.  Got three times more than I paid for it and bought a 2011 with the money.  I'm much happier carrying my G43, too.

But yeah, I don't really get the Hudson either.

I didn't get the P7 till I shot one. I love the squeeze cock trigger and the gun feels great in the hands.

It's one of those guns I'd love to own, but there are many more practical things I'd prefer to buy first.

I used to own a P7M8, great pistol, a technical marvel, a little on the heavy side. I realized over time that I hated the squeeze cocker. I liked the P9 much more. However, it seems like H&K did everything it could to design a pistol that didn't have a John Browning inlfuence. When they finally went that way with the USP and the later P series, they nailed it.

oops

Friend has a P7 and would hand it to me to shoot after he shot 4 mags through it first. Made me haaaaaate the gun as it was always burning hot.