[ARCHIVED THREAD] - VP9 - first range trip (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/5/2015 10:52:51 PM EDT
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So I finally got a chance to shoot my new VP9. I gotta say, I’m kind of disappointed. I’m a classic SIG guy (love my DA/SA) and wanted to get a modern striker fired pistol. I didn’t like the feeling of the P250 frame on the P320. I couldn’t find a PPQ M2 at the right price for me, so naturally I spent almost $150 more and got a VP9 LE model.
I was concerned about the paddle mag release. Even with my big hands, I had to shift the pistol slightly in my hand to thumb the release down. But I’d do a little dry fire/mag change practice every night when I got home and it got better. One thing I noticed during practice was the tip of my trigger finger would hit the left side paddle release when the trigger broke. It wasn’t a pinch in the trigger guard; my finger tip would get poked by the leading edge of the paddle. Again, I have big hands and doing the first pad on the trigger face just doesn’t work for me. I’m naturally at the first knuckle, if not even starting into the second pad. Always shot that way and always will, so don’t bother trying to tell me I’m doing it wrong! Anyway, the first range trip with the VP9 started on the wrong foot. I lugged my whole range bag with me only to find out I apparently put my clear glasses and muffs somewhere else. So I had to go with just plugs (I typically double up indoors) and my sunglasses (WileyX, so they’re GTG for shooting). Loaded up the three mags and put the target out to 7 yards to start. Even with my dry fire practice, the trigger break actually took me “by surprise” the first couple shots. More of an actual surprise was the felt recoil. I was shooting American Eagle 124 grain and the pistol felt rather snappy which puzzled me as all the videos I’d been watching seemed to show the VP9 to stay pretty flat. Also, my primary pistol is a P229 in .40, so I’m far from recoil sensitive. I have the large grip panels installed all around and still wish I’d had more real estate for my support hand. After finishing the first mag, I reeled the target in to see how I did. I had punched out two holes. One just up and right of the bull, one just low left. I was a little puzzled. Clearly the pistol was capable of putting one shot on top of the next, but what was I doing that made for two distinct groupings? I decided to put the next target out to 15 yards to force me to concentrate on each shot more. Put two mags through and brought the target back. I was stunned. I managed to dance all around the black with only one shot barely in it. No real grouping, I was circling all around. Hrm. I realize shooting is a degradable skill and it’d been a little bit, but not that long. I wasn’t doubled up on ear pro (which usually leads to anticipation/flinching for me) but I wasn’t grouping low left. I was wearing sunglasses in a rather dark indoor range, but wasn’t having problems seeing. Maybe I’m tired? Dehydrated? As luck would have it, it was at this time that a very large ricochet found it's way into my shin. This was more lead than a .45...someone must've been shooting a rifle. It came back with some heat on it (both speed and was still hot). Didn't rip my jeans or break the skin, but it definitely stung. Let the RSO know and went back to figuring out what I was doing. So I loaded up my SP2022, which is my next newest pistol. Bought it in the beginning of last summer. Put the target back to 15 yards and took my shots (including first DA). Decent group all in the black. No clover leaf, but better than the VP9 by a long shot. And the felt recoil wasn’t as bad. Did the same with my P228. Ok, so it’s not me, it’s me with the VP9. Not saying it was the VP9. It was the VP9 in my hands. Brought the target back to 7 yards and went back to the VP9, trying some more rapid fire. Could not get proper double taps going. I just couldn’t reacquire the sights fast enough. I did better with flash sight picture rapid fire. My time was almost up, and had 25 rounds left, so I loaded a full and a 10 round. Also out of fresh targets, I aimed at the circular manufacturer emblem (1 ½” circle?) in the upper left. Punched the whole thing out with only 3 fliers not touching, landing just a touch low. But still, only at 7 yards. So I finished with hope for my skills with the VP9. My takeaway is I need more experience with the striker fire trigger. I’d also like larger grips, but without a slip-on (no thanks), I don’t know if I can get any bigger. I think that would help with the felt recoil/reacquiring sights. Finally, I’m really curious as to whether other people’s VP9 mag release paddles stick up from the trigger guard like mine. It really made for an uncomfortable range trip. I want more experience with the pistol. As it stands now though, the VP9 is on the chopping block. I got it for a pretty decent price, so I don’t expect I’d lose too much selling it. Still, I really wanted to love this pistol. I was hoping to turn it into my 3 gun pistol, and even was open to the idea of it replacing my old P229 friend as my EDC. |
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I think you found out the reason why there are already a bunch of VP9s all over the EE and not many people really gushing about 'em.
High bore axis + no hammer and mainspring to overcome = snappier than a hammer fired gun. Add in the steeper grip angle and the smaller grip circumference and it's just not a real fast, hard drivin' kind of pistol. If they would have designed it more like a Steyr or a Glock, it would have been an outrageous success. |
| That's odd, I've heard nothing but excellent reports from new VP9 owners. Those and all the professional reviews that refer to the VP9 as the best new handgun to come out in a long time had me wanting one. This is the first negative feedback I've heard about the VP9. |
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I'd like to clarify that I don't consider my experience to be a negative review. Just that my initial range session didn't go as well as I'd hoped.
The only negative I place on the pistol itself is the mag release paddle poking my trigger finger. High bore axis + no hammer and mainspring to overcome = snappier than a hammer fired gun. Add in the steeper grip angle and the smaller grip circumference and it's just not a real fast, hard drivin' kind of pistol.
If they would have designed it more like a Steyr or a Glock, it would have been an outrageous success. Frankly, I'm not sure where you're getting any of that. Everything I've seen regarding the VP9 has been very positive, and every video review seems to show the VP9 shoot very flat with little muzzle flip. That and the grip options is why I went with the VP9 over the PPQ M2 or the P320. That's also why I was surprised at the amount of recoil I felt. The bore axis bit I find to be completely overblown in general. I'm used to SIGs and you don't get much higher bore axis. The VP9 definitely has a lower bore axis. This may have been part of my trouble reacquiring the sights...I'm used to a taller pistol! Anyway, I simply don't buy into the bore axis bit. Steep grip angle? Not that I'm aware of. Maybe you're thinking of the Steyr and Glock you mentioned. Yes, I would've liked a thicker grip, but I'm also well aware that I go against the grain in that regard. Everybody wants smaller and thinner these days except me! To be perfectly clear: other than the mag release poking me, any "negative" is the due to the interface between me and the pistol, NOT the pistol itself. I feel the pistol is perfectly capable of putting one round on top of the other, as it did for me. I just need a LOT more time with this pistol to get where I am with my SIGs, which isn't surprising to me since I've been a SIG DA/SA shooter for the better part of 2 decades. |
| I'm kinda surprised by your findings as well. I just recently took my new VP9 out as well and loved it. Didn't notice anything you mentioned in regards to recoil or weird shot placement. Maybe try shooting from a rest and seeing if you still get the poor results. I was able to place 10rnds in a 3" circle at 10yds right out the gate and I'm not the best shot out there. I also have a XDM and CZ75 I was shooting at the same time and don't notice any more recoil then those (ok, maybe a bit more then the CZ cause it weighs 5lbs). Maybe give it a little more time? |
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I'd like to clarify that I don't consider my experience to be a negative review. Just that my initial range session didn't go as well as I'd hoped. The only negative I place on the pistol itself is the mag release paddle poking my trigger finger. Frankly, I'm not sure where you're getting any of that. Everything I've seen regarding the VP9 has been very positive, and every video review seems to show the VP9 shoot very flat with little muzzle flip. That and the grip options is why I went with the VP9 over the PPQ M2 or the P320. That's also why I was surprised at the amount of recoil I felt. The bore axis bit I find to be completely overblown in general. I'm used to SIGs and you don't get much higher bore axis. The VP9 definitely has a lower bore axis. This may have been part of my trouble reacquiring the sights...I'm used to a taller pistol! Anyway, I simply don't buy into the bore axis bit. Steep grip angle? Not that I'm aware of. Maybe you're thinking of the Steyr and Glock you mentioned. Yes, I would've liked a thicker grip, but I'm also well aware that I go against the grain in that regard. Everybody wants smaller and thinner these days except me! To be perfectly clear: other than the mag release poking me, any "negative" is the due to the interface between me and the pistol, NOT the pistol itself. I feel the pistol is perfectly capable of putting one round on top of the other, as it did for me. I just need a LOT more time with this pistol to get where I am with my SIGs, which isn't surprising to me since I've been a SIG DA/SA shooter for the better part of 2 decades. Quoted:
I'd like to clarify that I don't consider my experience to be a negative review. Just that my initial range session didn't go as well as I'd hoped. The only negative I place on the pistol itself is the mag release paddle poking my trigger finger. High bore axis + no hammer and mainspring to overcome = snappier than a hammer fired gun. Add in the steeper grip angle and the smaller grip circumference and it's just not a real fast, hard drivin' kind of pistol.
If they would have designed it more like a Steyr or a Glock, it would have been an outrageous success. Frankly, I'm not sure where you're getting any of that. Everything I've seen regarding the VP9 has been very positive, and every video review seems to show the VP9 shoot very flat with little muzzle flip. That and the grip options is why I went with the VP9 over the PPQ M2 or the P320. That's also why I was surprised at the amount of recoil I felt. The bore axis bit I find to be completely overblown in general. I'm used to SIGs and you don't get much higher bore axis. The VP9 definitely has a lower bore axis. This may have been part of my trouble reacquiring the sights...I'm used to a taller pistol! Anyway, I simply don't buy into the bore axis bit. Steep grip angle? Not that I'm aware of. Maybe you're thinking of the Steyr and Glock you mentioned. Yes, I would've liked a thicker grip, but I'm also well aware that I go against the grain in that regard. Everybody wants smaller and thinner these days except me! To be perfectly clear: other than the mag release poking me, any "negative" is the due to the interface between me and the pistol, NOT the pistol itself. I feel the pistol is perfectly capable of putting one round on top of the other, as it did for me. I just need a LOT more time with this pistol to get where I am with my SIGs, which isn't surprising to me since I've been a SIG DA/SA shooter for the better part of 2 decades. I was comparing it to a Steyr or a Glock. Bore axis is higher and it does make a difference whether you think I'm overblowing it or not. All things being equal, a lower bore axis shoots flatter and faster. I meant steep grip angle as in closer to 90*. I don't like the nag release. It's just not natural for someone who has been shooting normal pistols all their life and I think if you don' have a perfect grip on the gun, it gets real hard to use in a hurry. The slide release levers are in the way. Training issue? Don't care. Glock and 1911 put 'em in a place where I can drive the gun as hard as I want and not hold 'em down. Don't get me wrong, I think the VP9 is a Helluva good gun, just not something that's gonna be a game changer in helping people advance their skill. IMO, it's more difficult to run hard than a Glock or a 1911. |
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I think you found out the reason why there are already a bunch of VP9s all over the EE and not many people really gushing about 'em. High bore axis + no hammer and mainspring to overcome = snappier than a hammer fired gun. Add in the steeper grip angle and the smaller grip circumference and it's just not a real fast, hard drivin' kind of pistol. If they would have designed it more like a Steyr or a Glock, it would have been an outrageous success. If they designed it like a Glock, then I never would have bought one,and speaking of Glocks, the EE is flooded with them as well as the local Backpage, so there's that too. |
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High bore axis is a myth full of derp, my best and fastest runs with IDPA have been with the VP9 so high bore dishonesty is that, dishonesty. If they designed it like a Glock, then I never would have bought one,and speaking of Glocks, the EE is flooded with them as well as the local Backpage, so there's that too. Quoted:
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I think you found out the reason why there are already a bunch of VP9s all over the EE and not many people really gushing about 'em. High bore axis + no hammer and mainspring to overcome = snappier than a hammer fired gun. Add in the steeper grip angle and the smaller grip circumference and it's just not a real fast, hard drivin' kind of pistol. If they would have designed it more like a Steyr or a Glock, it would have been an outrageous success. If they designed it like a Glock, then I never would have bought one,and speaking of Glocks, the EE is flooded with them as well as the local Backpage, so there's that too. It's not a myth. It's physics. Higher bore axis does cause more flip. But, bore axis isn't the sole factor in recoil and muzzle flip. Just look at any video about grip with a pro shooter and they all stress the importance of getting a high grip to reduce muzzle flip. Miculek, Vogel, etc. If you take a VP9 and a VP9 with a lower bore, all other things being equal, the lower bore VP9 will recoil less. I don't know how much less it would recoil but science is science. |
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It's not a myth. It's physics. Higher bore axis does cause more flip. But, bore axis isn't the sole factor in recoil and muzzle flip. Just look at any video about grip with a pro shooter and they all stress the importance of getting a high grip to reduce muzzle flip. Miculek, Vogel, etc. If you take a VP9 and a VP9 with a lower bore, all other things being equal, the lower bore VP9 will recoil less. I don't know how much less it would recoil but science is science. Quoted:
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I think you found out the reason why there are already a bunch of VP9s all over the EE and not many people really gushing about 'em. High bore axis + no hammer and mainspring to overcome = snappier than a hammer fired gun. Add in the steeper grip angle and the smaller grip circumference and it's just not a real fast, hard drivin' kind of pistol. If they would have designed it more like a Steyr or a Glock, it would have been an outrageous success. If they designed it like a Glock, then I never would have bought one,and speaking of Glocks, the EE is flooded with them as well as the local Backpage, so there's that too. It's not a myth. It's physics. Higher bore axis does cause more flip. But, bore axis isn't the sole factor in recoil and muzzle flip. Just look at any video about grip with a pro shooter and they all stress the importance of getting a high grip to reduce muzzle flip. Miculek, Vogel, etc. If you take a VP9 and a VP9 with a lower bore, all other things being equal, the lower bore VP9 will recoil less. I don't know how much less it would recoil but science is science. The VP9 has a high grip already, so there's your argument debunked. |
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Sometimes certain firearms just don't workout for certain people, not the gun's nor the shooter's fault. It's especially easy to get discouraged when so many praise a firearm that isn't working out for you. For me it's the Glock 19. I bought it twice; a Gen 3 and then a Gen 4. Just could not get it to click. I don't necessarily see a bad first outing here, more an impossibly high expectation going into your first range session that inevitable painted the whole experience a disappointment. That being said I wouldn't give up on it just yet, but if you can slug lead down range better with other pistols there's no sense in keeping it.
I can't say I've experienced the problems you've had with the mag release. While you can activate the mag paddle with your thumb I think it's best used with your trigger or middle finger on your dominate hand, no need to roll the pistol in your hand in order to reach it then. I also found the VP to be a soft shooter, but this is where people's perceptions are different and therefore experiences will all be different as well. As for VPs ending up on the EE, well anytime a firearm is super popular there are going to be tons of people rushing out to buy them. The more guns sold, the higher the amount of people who change their mind. This is not a symptom of a poor design but simply probability factors resulting from a popular item. |
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It's a myth when you know how to run your gun. Anyone who pushes other people to buy other guns because of that I disregard. And speaking of science, the same crowd that tries to use argument always refuses physics at the same time, saying their precious never breaks. Physics do happen indeed. The VP9 has a high grip already, so there's your argument debunked. Quoted:
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I think you found out the reason why there are already a bunch of VP9s all over the EE and not many people really gushing about 'em. High bore axis + no hammer and mainspring to overcome = snappier than a hammer fired gun. Add in the steeper grip angle and the smaller grip circumference and it's just not a real fast, hard drivin' kind of pistol. If they would have designed it more like a Steyr or a Glock, it would have been an outrageous success. If they designed it like a Glock, then I never would have bought one,and speaking of Glocks, the EE is flooded with them as well as the local Backpage, so there's that too. It's not a myth. It's physics. Higher bore axis does cause more flip. But, bore axis isn't the sole factor in recoil and muzzle flip. Just look at any video about grip with a pro shooter and they all stress the importance of getting a high grip to reduce muzzle flip. Miculek, Vogel, etc. If you take a VP9 and a VP9 with a lower bore, all other things being equal, the lower bore VP9 will recoil less. I don't know how much less it would recoil but science is science. The VP9 has a high grip already, so there's your argument debunked. 1) Knowing how to run your gun does not change physics. 2) At no point did TheNuge push another gun over the VP9. 3) His main point of "all things being equal, if you had a VP9 with a slightly lower bore axis than a standard VP9, it would shoot flatter" is true in every way. 4) Grip height wasn't even brought up until now, so it doesn't debunk anything. |
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It's a myth when you know how to run your gun. Anyone who pushes other people to buy other guns because of that I disregard. And speaking of science, the same crowd that tries to use argument always refuses physics at the same time, saying their precious never breaks. Physics do happen indeed. The VP9 has a high grip already, so there's your argument debunked. Quoted:
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I think you found out the reason why there are already a bunch of VP9s all over the EE and not many people really gushing about 'em. High bore axis + no hammer and mainspring to overcome = snappier than a hammer fired gun. Add in the steeper grip angle and the smaller grip circumference and it's just not a real fast, hard drivin' kind of pistol. If they would have designed it more like a Steyr or a Glock, it would have been an outrageous success. If they designed it like a Glock, then I never would have bought one,and speaking of Glocks, the EE is flooded with them as well as the local Backpage, so there's that too. It's not a myth. It's physics. Higher bore axis does cause more flip. But, bore axis isn't the sole factor in recoil and muzzle flip. Just look at any video about grip with a pro shooter and they all stress the importance of getting a high grip to reduce muzzle flip. Miculek, Vogel, etc. If you take a VP9 and a VP9 with a lower bore, all other things being equal, the lower bore VP9 will recoil less. I don't know how much less it would recoil but science is science. The VP9 has a high grip already, so there's your argument debunked. So Miculek, Vogel and all the pros that talk about how important it is to get the bore as low as possible don't know how to run a gun? |
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So Miculek, Vogel and all the pros that talk about how important it is to get the bore as low as possible don't know how to run a gun? Quoted:
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I think you found out the reason why there are already a bunch of VP9s all over the EE and not many people really gushing about 'em. High bore axis + no hammer and mainspring to overcome = snappier than a hammer fired gun. Add in the steeper grip angle and the smaller grip circumference and it's just not a real fast, hard drivin' kind of pistol. If they would have designed it more like a Steyr or a Glock, it would have been an outrageous success. If they designed it like a Glock, then I never would have bought one,and speaking of Glocks, the EE is flooded with them as well as the local Backpage, so there's that too. It's not a myth. It's physics. Higher bore axis does cause more flip. But, bore axis isn't the sole factor in recoil and muzzle flip. Just look at any video about grip with a pro shooter and they all stress the importance of getting a high grip to reduce muzzle flip. Miculek, Vogel, etc. If you take a VP9 and a VP9 with a lower bore, all other things being equal, the lower bore VP9 will recoil less. I don't know how much less it would recoil but science is science. The VP9 has a high grip already, so there's your argument debunked. So Miculek, Vogel and all the pros that talk about how important it is to get the bore as low as possible don't know how to run a gun? Always like I said, just one group that likes to fight it out with everyone else that isn't liking what they like. It isn't that important as you think it, life goes on and people buy what they like and keep what works for them and disregard the rest. I dumped my Glocks, they didn't work for me and newsflash, I am not alone. Deal with it. "click." |
| OP, I take it this is your only striker fired handgun? It sounds like your groups would tighten up with practice. And if the recoil is an issue, try comparing it to the usual suspects, G19/M&P/PPQ/XD, to see how you feel about the others. I'm actually curious to see how they all stack up to each other. |
When you get used to the paddle magazine release you will see it is the fastest release there is. Rob Leatham has a drill on his site that I used and I can load faster than Mas Ayoob. ('m one of his senior instructors) Of course it is the only thing I can do faster.
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When you get used to the paddle magazine release you will see it is the fastest release there is. Rob Leatham has a drill on his site that I used and I can load faster than Mas Ayoob. ('m one of his senior instructors) Of course it is the only thing I can do faster. Link for reference? |
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When you get used to the paddle magazine release you will see it is the fastest release there is. Rob Leatham has a drill on his site that I used and I can load faster than Mas Ayoob. ('m one of his senior instructors) Of course it is the only thing I can do faster. I prefer it to the side mag release as well. Just fits my hand much better. |
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I think I know the answer, but what does "click" mean? Quoted:
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So much wrong in so many ways, "click." I think I know the answer, but what does "click" mean? I think that's his way of "letting you know" that you're on his ignore list. Think...teenage girl antics. I believe that I've been "clicked" by him too...I'm really out of sorts about it. 
I own a VP9, but I have it on the EE. It's a fine pistol, but I prefer Glocks. They're both fine pistols. What really cracks me up here is the "derp" as he puts it. He'll puke ignorance over any poster in any forum that praises Glock. He'll quickly label you a "fanboi." However, if you disparage the HK VP9 in any way...well...pot meet kettle. I can't know for sure, but he must be 12...that's the only thing that would explain the behavior I've seen month after month. Pretty unbelievable... |
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I think that's his way of "letting you know" that you're on his ignore list. Think...teenage girl antics. I believe that I've been "clicked" by him too...I'm really out of sorts about it.
I own a VP9, but I have it on the EE. It's a fine pistol, but I prefer Glocks. They're both fine pistols. What really cracks me up here is the "derp" as he puts it. He'll puke ignorance over any poster in any forum that praises Glock. He'll quickly label you a "fanboi." However, if you disparage the HK VP9 in any way...well...pot meet kettle. I can't know for sure, but he must be 12...that's the only thing that would explain the behavior I've seen month after month. Pretty unbelievable... Quoted:
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So much wrong in so many ways, "click." I think I know the answer, but what does "click" mean? I think that's his way of "letting you know" that you're on his ignore list. Think...teenage girl antics. I believe that I've been "clicked" by him too...I'm really out of sorts about it.
I own a VP9, but I have it on the EE. It's a fine pistol, but I prefer Glocks. They're both fine pistols. What really cracks me up here is the "derp" as he puts it. He'll puke ignorance over any poster in any forum that praises Glock. He'll quickly label you a "fanboi." However, if you disparage the HK VP9 in any way...well...pot meet kettle. I can't know for sure, but he must be 12...that's the only thing that would explain the behavior I've seen month after month. Pretty unbelievable... That or he may be messed up mentally in some way, in which case I'll feel bad for laughing at him. |
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I prefer it to the side mag release as well. Just fits my hand much better. Quoted:
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When you get used to the paddle magazine release you will see it is the fastest release there is. Rob Leatham has a drill on his site that I used and I can load faster than Mas Ayoob. ('m one of his senior instructors) Of course it is the only thing I can do faster. I prefer it to the side mag release as well. Just fits my hand much better. |
| Hi my statement came from Brian Enos site not Leathams. It has to do with using the trigger finger. Personally I pinch with thumb and trigger finger which gets the finger out of and away from the trigger while the other hand is getting a magazine back in place. I use two fingers but many use only the trigger finger. The paddle is resistant to accidental drops but is very positive when actuated by either of both fingers. |
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Quoted: I have big hands and doing the first pad on the trigger face just doesn’t work for me. I’m naturally at the first knuckle, if not even starting into the second pad. Always shot that way and always will, so don’t bother trying to tell me I’m doing it wrong!
You obviously bought the wrong gun. It's like buying a Porsche 911 and saying the car is a turd because your knees hit the dash. Your hand is obviously well on the right side of the proverbial bell curve; maybe look into double stacked 9mms as those tend to be slightly thicker? I agree with you that you should not change what has worked for you in the past just so you can fire 1 pistol out of who knows how many you own. That's a lot of time and $$$ that can be better spent getting you a tool that fits you instead. I don't have a VP9 but my bro does and I've shot it a bit...still can't picture how you're having your trigger finger catch on the mag release. The only thing I can think of is you have hands that make a basketball look like a baseball and when you're pulling the trigger, your index finger is not pulling back parallel to the frame but at an angle and downward...b/c the gun is too small. That I can see. I say just stick with what already works for you. |
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Quoted: I just need a LOT more time with this pistol to get where I am with my SIGs, which isn't surprising to me since I've been a SIG DA/SA shooter for the better part of 2 decades. Right on. I would think once you get 1500 rounds or so down the pipe you will have worked out the grip and trigger issues. It will be very accurate I'm sure. cheers. |
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OP here. Wow, was not expecting the turn the thread took. Thanks to those that moved past it and Maynard for nudging things.
Let's see if I can answer some posts: ken_mays: yeah, I was thinking about modifying the paddle, but haven't found a replacement one yet to do it to! It may be the solution though. N4sty_N4te: It is my only modern striker fired. I do have a P7 PSP, which I tack drive with. But I'm not great at running that one at speed either. Both trigger and recoil on that one. Comparisons might be tough for me. All my buddies dislike Glocks, but there are some M&Ps, a Steyr and maybe a PPQ, but I don't know if I'll be able to get them all together until spring! I think the M&Ps are fine pistols (after trigger work), but they don't have personality to me. If I ultimately decide to sell the VP9, I will probably replace it with a PPQ M2. bngracing: not sure whether you read everything I wrote. Also wondering if you're confusing the VP9 with another pistol. You recommended I try a double stack 9mm...that is what the VP9 is. I never said it was a turd (I felt I went out of my way to make sure that's not what came across), just stating that I wasn't having the success with it that I had hoped for. I said that I saw the pistol was capable of putting one round on top of the other, just that it wasn't coming easy to me. I also took a couple of pics on how the paddle interferes with my finger (below). You may be a bit right with the downward angle idea; I'm not sure if that's the from high cut of the grip or my hands. MercuryHayze: I agree with you. The pistol is capable...I just have to learn to be! Side note: seeing Michigan well represented in this thread! Anyway, I snapped a couple of pics to try and demonstrate how the paddle pokes my trigger finger. Excuse the photography (done either left handed or propped on a pillow using the timer). As I'm demonstrating finger on the trigger, the pistol was quadruple checked with no ammunition in the room. Two handed: 
Support hand out of the way: 
Paddle not flush with trigger guard: 
POKE! 
Another angle: 
I actually had an idea that I doubt will work, but worth a try. I put the pistol with an empty mag in the cutout of the factory case, then released the mag. It's just barely not seated, but that's pushing the paddles down. Hopefully, the spring will take a seat and make the paddles sit more flush. If it helps, I will post results. |
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Quoted: Oh well, swoon over the VP9. CZ and Glock will still be in the winner's holsters! Which winners? 1911/2011s have a 'high bore axis' Isn't your avg 1911 about 1.33" ? Ruger LCR is something like 0.80" Clearly the superior gun is the LCR. Bore axis is physics - but when you're talking 1.5" to 1" - it IS overblown. So many other factors matter more. Bore axis should not be a part of this discussion. |
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Feb 2nd Max Michel shot Smoke and Hope (steel challenge) in 1.81 seconds with a 'high bore axis' Sig P320. It just doesn't matter. Not in Steel Challenge. You're transitioning to another target anyway while the front sight is coming back down. Where it could make a difference is on your A splits on a single target. I agree that with a skilled shooter, bore axis isn't going to lose them any matches. |
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Which winners? 1911/2011s have a 'high bore axis' Isn't your avg 1911 about 1.33" ? Ruger LCR is something like 0.80" Clearly the superior gun is the LCR. Bore axis is physics - but when you're talking 1.5" to 1" - it IS overblown. So many other factors matter more. Bore axis should not be a part of this discussion. Quoted:
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Oh well, swoon over the VP9. CZ and Glock will still be in the winner's holsters! Which winners? 1911/2011s have a 'high bore axis' Isn't your avg 1911 about 1.33" ? Ruger LCR is something like 0.80" Clearly the superior gun is the LCR. Bore axis is physics - but when you're talking 1.5" to 1" - it IS overblown. So many other factors matter more. Bore axis should not be a part of this discussion. Quoted:
Feb 2nd Max Michel shot Smoke and Hope (steel challenge) in 1.81 seconds with a 'high bore axis' Sig P320. It just doesn't matter. |
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Quoted: Not in Steel Challenge. You're transitioning to another target anyway while the front sight is coming back down. Where it could make a difference is on your A splits on a single target. I agree that with a skilled shooter, bore axis isn't going to lose them any matches. Quoted: Quoted: Feb 2nd Max Michel shot Smoke and Hope (steel challenge) in 1.81 seconds with a 'high bore axis' Sig P320. It just doesn't matter. Not in Steel Challenge. You're transitioning to another target anyway while the front sight is coming back down. Where it could make a difference is on your A splits on a single target. I agree that with a skilled shooter, bore axis isn't going to lose them any matches. Draw and transitioning between 5 targets in 1.81 seconds. I agree with what you're saying - but his transitions are fast enough to almost count as a split on a single target. I really think bore axis is one of the smaller variables in pistol shooting. |
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Quoted: Not in Steel Challenge. You're transitioning to another target anyway while the front sight is coming back down. Where it could make a difference is on your A splits on a single target. I agree that with a skilled shooter, bore axis isn't going to lose them any matches. Quoted: Quoted: Feb 2nd Max Michel shot Smoke and Hope (steel challenge) in 1.81 seconds with a 'high bore axis' Sig P320. It just doesn't matter. Not in Steel Challenge. You're transitioning to another target anyway while the front sight is coming back down. Where it could make a difference is on your A splits on a single target. I agree that with a skilled shooter, bore axis isn't going to lose them any matches. Max's Shot Show demo of the P320 show's lightning fast splits. Somethings wrong If a half inch of bore axis height is affecting a shooter |
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Quoted: I'd like to clarify that I don't consider my experience to be a negative review. Just that my initial range session didn't go as well as I'd hoped. The only negative I place on the pistol itself is the mag release paddle poking my trigger finger. Frankly, I'm not sure where you're getting any of that. Everything I've seen regarding the VP9 has been very positive, and every video review seems to show the VP9 shoot very flat with little muzzle flip. That and the grip options is why I went with the VP9 over the PPQ M2 or the P320. That's also why I was surprised at the amount of recoil I felt. The bore axis bit I find to be completely overblown in general. I'm used to SIGs and you don't get much higher bore axis. The VP9 definitely has a lower bore axis. This may have been part of my trouble reacquiring the sights...I'm used to a taller pistol! Anyway, I simply don't buy into the bore axis bit. Steep grip angle? Not that I'm aware of. Maybe you're thinking of the Steyr and Glock you mentioned. Yes, I would've liked a thicker grip, but I'm also well aware that I go against the grain in that regard. Everybody wants smaller and thinner these days except me! To be perfectly clear: other than the mag release poking me, any "negative" is the due to the interface between me and the pistol, NOT the pistol itself. I feel the pistol is perfectly capable of putting one round on top of the other, as it did for me. I just need a LOT more time with this pistol to get where I am with my SIGs, which isn't surprising to me since I've been a SIG DA/SA shooter for the better part of 2 decades. Quoted: I'd like to clarify that I don't consider my experience to be a negative review. Just that my initial range session didn't go as well as I'd hoped. The only negative I place on the pistol itself is the mag release paddle poking my trigger finger. High bore axis + no hammer and mainspring to overcome = snappier than a hammer fired gun. Add in the steeper grip angle and the smaller grip circumference and it's just not a real fast, hard drivin' kind of pistol. If they would have designed it more like a Steyr or a Glock, it would have been an outrageous success. Frankly, I'm not sure where you're getting any of that. Everything I've seen regarding the VP9 has been very positive, and every video review seems to show the VP9 shoot very flat with little muzzle flip. That and the grip options is why I went with the VP9 over the PPQ M2 or the P320. That's also why I was surprised at the amount of recoil I felt. The bore axis bit I find to be completely overblown in general. I'm used to SIGs and you don't get much higher bore axis. The VP9 definitely has a lower bore axis. This may have been part of my trouble reacquiring the sights...I'm used to a taller pistol! Anyway, I simply don't buy into the bore axis bit. Steep grip angle? Not that I'm aware of. Maybe you're thinking of the Steyr and Glock you mentioned. Yes, I would've liked a thicker grip, but I'm also well aware that I go against the grain in that regard. Everybody wants smaller and thinner these days except me! To be perfectly clear: other than the mag release poking me, any "negative" is the due to the interface between me and the pistol, NOT the pistol itself. I feel the pistol is perfectly capable of putting one round on top of the other, as it did for me. I just need a LOT more time with this pistol to get where I am with my SIGs, which isn't surprising to me since I've been a SIG DA/SA shooter for the better part of 2 decades. Your self analysis seems spot on. The VP9 weighs something like 25.5 ounces while a Sig P226 weighs what...double? Nearly 4 lbs depending on model? Loaded VP9 mag weighs more than a loaded 226 mag as well. If you don't roll with a 226 - I'm still sure your Sig is heavier. That combined with your first Striker fired pistol is going to equate to some range woes. I went from a Glock 17 to a Tanfoglio Stock III (Italian CZ clone, DA/SA), and now to a Gray Guns tuned Sig P320. The struggle - IS - real. Give it some time before you axe it. Have you shot other striker fired guns since then? I'm not sure if you mentioned that in your update or your OP |
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OP here. Wow, was not expecting the turn the thread took. Thanks to those that moved past it and Maynard for nudging things. Let's see if I can answer some posts: ken_mays: yeah, I was thinking about modifying the paddle, but haven't found a replacement one yet to do it to! It may be the solution though. N4sty_N4te: It is my only modern striker fired. I do have a P7 PSP, which I tack drive with. But I'm not great at running that one at speed either. Both trigger and recoil on that one. Comparisons might be tough for me. All my buddies dislike Glocks, but there are some M&Ps, a Steyr and maybe a PPQ, but I don't know if I'll be able to get them all together until spring! I think the M&Ps are fine pistols (after trigger work), but they don't have personality to me. If I ultimately decide to sell the VP9, I will probably replace it with a PPQ M2. bngracing: not sure whether you read everything I wrote. Also wondering if you're confusing the VP9 with another pistol. You recommended I try a double stack 9mm...that is what the VP9 is. I never said it was a turd (I felt I went out of my way to make sure that's not what came across), just stating that I wasn't having the success with it that I had hoped for. I said that I saw the pistol was capable of putting one round on top of the other, just that it wasn't coming easy to me. I also took a couple of pics on how the paddle interferes with my finger (below). You may be a bit right with the downward angle idea; I'm not sure if that's the from high cut of the grip or my hands. MercuryHayze: I agree with you. The pistol is capable...I just have to learn to be! Side note: seeing Michigan well represented in this thread! Anyway, I snapped a couple of pics to try and demonstrate how the paddle pokes my trigger finger. Excuse the photography (done either left handed or propped on a pillow using the timer). As I'm demonstrating finger on the trigger, the pistol was quadruple checked with no ammunition in the room. Two handed: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_zL_K2FNNt4/VNW1XJLAZNI/AAAAAAAAD9Y/5cb8NrTn7EU/s800/DSC07409.JPG Support hand out of the way: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fXHAV6pYFV4/VNW1gg6l3QI/AAAAAAAAD9g/dEvhzMviBJw/s800/DSC07399.JPG Paddle not flush with trigger guard: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5Ql4Bp457ZA/VNW1V-f4JZI/AAAAAAAAD9E/MMEbBnggoDo/s800/DSC07402.JPG POKE! https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SBMaVqvYnq8/VNW1WWwNw5I/AAAAAAAAD9U/dbc9oUH6njg/s800/DSC07397.JPG Another angle: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0Fx5K8OPOls/VNW1Wf7HCcI/AAAAAAAAD9M/kfTNa06DAVs/s800/DSC07396.JPG I actually had an idea that I doubt will work, but worth a try. I put the pistol with an empty mag in the cutout of the factory case, then released the mag. It's just barely not seated, but that's pushing the paddles down. Hopefully, the spring will take a seat and make the paddles sit more flush. If it helps, I will post results. But here's the catch; Think of the VP9 as a single action since pulling it's unique trigger which when it's charged it has already charged the striker like it would say a single 1911's hammer, you shoot a single action with the pad of your finger. It's the longer and heavier pulls such as a Glock or a standard DA revolver that requires the joint of your finger as you're displaying which is required for the heavier pulls. Except you do not need to as the VP9 is not a DA type of striker, more as a single action because Glock's require you to squeeze the trigger in order to finish the process that by design when charged is partially charged, and pulling the trigger finishes the cocking process as well as releasing it to strike the primer with the pin. So the solution to your problem with the paddle release sticking into your fingers? Shoot it as you would a single action and no more problems with the paddle. As a side note of one, this is why I get upset with people, not you OP but others who are dishonest. Glock's design make's safer by requiring the user to finish the cocking sequence. If that is what a user wants in their EDC or HD pistol, then just say it instead of pontificating over how great it's trigger is because really it's not great at all unless safety is a big concern since you do not trust yourself or have enough time and training invested with it. And that reset humina is a dishonest excuse too, are you seriously going to hear that click when your life is on the line!? No, you will not so just say you like the safety with it's trigger design instead of making unbelievable excuses. Side note two, that high bore axis is not what makes you fast, it's knowing where the trigger breaks and and finding that sweet spot when it resets grouped with thumbs forward and knowing how to use your sights and adapt to either the center or six o'clock hold, that allows you to be fast, meaning more range time and less talking about things that a few hundred YouTube videos have proven otherwise. Now that quite a few things have been settled, can we please get back to the OP's range report instead of doing the SOP and try bringing another gun to compare it to!? This is not about you, remember that. |
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I have big hands and I can't comfortably hold the pad of my trigger finger on it. Just sayin... Quoted:
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IMO OP you are using way too much finger on the trigger. You're finger joint is in the middle of the trigger. I have big hands and I can't comfortably hold the pad of my trigger finger on it. Just sayin... Yup. Here's what using the distal pad for most people looks like (not my photo...I got it from here) 
And here's what it looks like with big hands: 
Frankly, having your finger out like that not only is uncomfortable, it can cramp up and also actually tends to induce lateral movement for me. GSL, that was a great post. I see your point. However, I don't shoot revolvers or other DAO strikers. I shoot primarily SIGs, with a 1911 (only on special occasions...anniversary edition) and a P7 for range fun. So except when I'm practicing my initial DA by decocking between shots, 99% of my shooting is actually single action! Well, at least 91% anyway (11 of 12 in the .40 P229)  .
I appreciate that it is generally accepted to use the distal pad, but the fact is that it simply doesn't work for everyone. I also happen to agree with Jerry Jones from OpSpec Training when he said, "...the amount of finger on the trigger is irrelevant to pistol shooting" at the 1:25 mark of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNVYu3koF4o. Boy, I hope this doesn't start a "discussion" like the bore axis bit... I do appreciate everyone's constructive input. I can assure all of you that this pistol and I will go through a lot more rounds before I ultimately decide what to do with it. I really hope to learn to run it as well (or better) than I do my SIGs. |
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I think that's his way of "letting you know" that you're on his ignore list. Think...teenage girl antics. I believe that I've been "clicked" by him too...I'm really out of sorts about it.
I own a VP9, but I have it on the EE. It's a fine pistol, but I prefer Glocks. They're both fine pistols. What really cracks me up here is the "derp" as he puts it. He'll puke ignorance over any poster in any forum that praises Glock. He'll quickly label you a "fanboi." However, if you disparage the HK VP9 in any way...well...pot meet kettle. I can't know for sure, but he must be 12...that's the only thing that would explain the behavior I've seen month after month. Pretty unbelievable... Quoted:
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So much wrong in so many ways, "click." I think I know the answer, but what does "click" mean? I think that's his way of "letting you know" that you're on his ignore list. Think...teenage girl antics. I believe that I've been "clicked" by him too...I'm really out of sorts about it.
I own a VP9, but I have it on the EE. It's a fine pistol, but I prefer Glocks. They're both fine pistols. What really cracks me up here is the "derp" as he puts it. He'll puke ignorance over any poster in any forum that praises Glock. He'll quickly label you a "fanboi." However, if you disparage the HK VP9 in any way...well...pot meet kettle. I can't know for sure, but he must be 12...that's the only thing that would explain the behavior I've seen month after month. Pretty unbelievable... *snip* even though I agree, I will take my comment about his antics back since I now see maynard has already warned us lol |
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Back your finger off the trigger a bit until you're not touching the paddle. I wouldn't get caught up on how much trigger finger to use in two handed shooting with a 'combat' pistol. A comfortable and easily repeatable grip is much more important. It seems like the VP9 with the widest grip options just rounds out the middle of the grip, without actually setting your trigger finger back any. Most people prefer that so they can reach the trigger easily. Do you shoot all pistols with your finger like that? |
| There's no need for butt hurt at all really. The VP9 is a fantastic pistol. But to say that it's the best fit for everyone is ludicrous. Just like glocks, they're proven excellent handguns too. But they don't fit the bill for everyone either. People just need to get over their brand loyalty crap |
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I have found that as the guns I own have become more diverse my ability to enjoy shooting most anything well has greatly expanded.
I like most anything but have my core group of guns I'll always own. Some times they don't jive. Perhaps that PPQ G2 would work better for you. |
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I sold my VP9 and returned back to Glocks. To each his own. I shot the VP9 in a three gun and IDPA match and noted that it always recoiled more so than my Glock. The ergos on the VP9 are excellent, however I found it only excellent for when shooting one hand. When using a two handed grip I could not get my support hand to find a comfortable and stable spot. With the Glock being not so ergonomic, the blockiness of it actually provides a good memory spot for both my hands and I cn control it better than I did with the VP9.
I have been around the circle when it comes to different handguns, and although some may call me a glock fan boy, as I own all glocks, I can say that I have been through the ringer of trying diferent makes and models. It just works for me. There are excellent qualities in many different makes and models, I just want to own one platform and master it. fanboy or not. Shoot it some more, take notes, and write it off as an experience on a new platform whether you sell it or not. Always a good thing to try more of what is out there, as now you have an educated opinion! |
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I sold my VP9 and returned back to Glocks. To each his own. I shot the VP9 in a three gun and IDPA match and noted that it always recoiled more so than my Glock. The ergos on the VP9 are excellent, however I found it only excellent for when shooting one hand. When using a two handed grip I could not get my support hand to find a comfortable and stable spot. With the Glock being not so ergonomic, the blockiness of it actually provides a good memory spot for both my hands and I cn control it better than I did with the VP9. I have been around the circle when it comes to different handguns, and although some may call me a glock fan boy, as I own all glocks, I can say that I have been through the ringer of trying diferent makes and models. It just works for me. There are excellent qualities in many different makes and models, I just want to own one platform and master it. fanboy or not. Shoot it some more, take notes, and write it off as an experience on a new platform whether you sell it or not. Always a good thing to try more of what is out there, as now you have an educated opinion! Not really advice for you, but just something to consider for anyone that has the same issue, I read a review from I think Patrick Sweeney. He put either a medium or large side panel on the right side and then a small one on his left side. He found that the flatter side on the left was better for his support hand. Not sure if many people consider using different sizes on their grip panels. I'm not sure if this would have helped you or not. |
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Not really advice for you, but just something to consider for anyone that has the same issue, I read a review from I think Patrick Sweeney. He put either a medium or large side panel on the right side and then a small one on his left side. He found that the flatter side on the left was better for his support hand. Not sure if many people consider using different sizes on their grip panels. I'm not sure if this would have helped you or not. Quoted:
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I sold my VP9 and returned back to Glocks. To each his own. I shot the VP9 in a three gun and IDPA match and noted that it always recoiled more so than my Glock. The ergos on the VP9 are excellent, however I found it only excellent for when shooting one hand. When using a two handed grip I could not get my support hand to find a comfortable and stable spot. With the Glock being not so ergonomic, the blockiness of it actually provides a good memory spot for both my hands and I cn control it better than I did with the VP9. I have been around the circle when it comes to different handguns, and although some may call me a glock fan boy, as I own all glocks, I can say that I have been through the ringer of trying diferent makes and models. It just works for me. There are excellent qualities in many different makes and models, I just want to own one platform and master it. fanboy or not. Shoot it some more, take notes, and write it off as an experience on a new platform whether you sell it or not. Always a good thing to try more of what is out there, as now you have an educated opinion! Not really advice for you, but just something to consider for anyone that has the same issue, I read a review from I think Patrick Sweeney. He put either a medium or large side panel on the right side and then a small one on his left side. He found that the flatter side on the left was better for his support hand. Not sure if many people consider using different sizes on their grip panels. I'm not sure if this would have helped you or not. I don't know that I'd want to set up a non-target pistol that way as it may have a negative effect when having to shoot with the opposite hand or in an unconventional position. |