Posted: 3/16/2014 2:01:18 PM EDT
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When I got into shooting and law enforcement 20 years ago 9mm was never my first choice.
.40 was new and worked well and .45 was, well .45 and did the job if you did yours. I've always preferred the larger calibers and though NOTHING takes the place of shot placement 9mm ammunition design has come a long way with Federal HST seeming to be tops. I hope that .380 ammo design evolves the same way. A small auto with 6-8 in the mag a spare mag works well for your average day of running errands. Not giving up my Glock21 anytime soon but I wonder where we will be in another 20 years.... discuss |
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The laws of physics say this can't happen.
380 is just too light and too slow, and any attempt at making a "+P" 380 would only put it in the 9x19 realm anyway. With the introduction of ever better very small pistols chambered in 9x19 why bother with 380? And don't think I'm hating on 380, or even 32, which I like better than 380 actually, but with pistols like the Walther PPS, the various Kahr, Sig, and now Remington, all small and chambered in the infinitely better 9x19, there is no reason to pick a sub 9x19 caliber for self defense anymore. |
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Faster isn't always better as it leads to premature expansion, so the key to getting expansion and 12" minimum penetration in a small caliber and light bullet weight is to design a bullet with controlled expansion within a designated velocity range.
The Hornady 90 gr XTP bullet is an excellent example of this. For a .380 it is very promising with penetration around 15" in calibrated ballistic gel, but it depends on the velocity being kept down to around 800-850 fps to minimize the initial expansion. Which means it should work best in a short 2.7" barreled .380. When pushed faster out of a 3.8" barrel with velocities around 1000-1050 fps, it tends to over expand and under penetrate at around 10-11". ---- I also don't feel any less under gunned with the .32 ACP compared to the .380 ACP with a decent load due to greater accuracy, controllability and mag capacity, and at around 1000-1050 fps the 60 gr XTP gives 10-11" penetration with decent expansion while the 75 grain LFN at similar velocities will give around 17" of penetration. But with the right match between round, velocity and barrel length the .380 can meet the FBI minimum penetration standard. They are making lighter and smaller sub compact 9mms but they are not pleasant to shoot and very fees if any shooters will be able to put as many rounds on target with one in a given amount of time as they could with a .380 ACP, or a .32 ACP, so it ends up being a trade off of speed and accuracy for additional power with the sub compact 9mm. Given the importance of bullet placement, I'm biassed toward more rounds with more accuracy in a given time frame. ----- Both these videos get 15" penetration with 90 gr XTP Custom ammo at around 800-850 fps. .380 90 gr XTP Hornady 90 gr XTP You'll note here that pushing it faster at 1000-1050 FPS results in less penetration (10.9"). 90 gr XTP in a Beretta 85 ----- As an aside the Fiocchi .32 ACP load using the 60 gr XTP at 1050 fps in a 3.5" barrel. Here with a lighter 60 grain bullet it is velocity that gets the job done and it also achieves the minimum 12" of penetration in calibrated ballistic gel with great expansion and only 2.3 grs of fragmentation. Fiocchi .32 ACP Extrema Obviously, if the .32 ACP can evolve to meet the 12" standard, the .380 ACP should be able to do it with ease and at the proper velocities the Hornady XTP bullets seem to be able to do it in both calibers. ----- Properly matching the pistol to the ammo is key to achieving the required velocity for a hollow point to perform optimally. In a Walther PP or PPK/S with a 3.9" barrel, the .380 ACP with the 90 gr XTP tested will over expand and fail to get the required 12" of penetration as the long barrel will produce 1000 fps velocities and cause premature expansion and penetration in the 10-11" range. However the .32 ACP with the 60 gr XTP will make the 12" mark due to the longer barrel and higher velocity. Conversely in a short 2.5'-2.7" barreled pistol with velocities around 800-850 fps, the .380 ACP 90 Gr XTP will performa admirably and exceed the 12" mark while the .32 ACP 60 gr XTP will come up short at around 10-11". So whether the .380 ACP or .32 ACP is "better" depends entirely on the congruence between bullet and barrel length. ------- Let the .380 ACP and .32 ACP hate begin. 
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| Before Golden Loki shut down his website, he had gel tests showing Gold Dots and Cor Bon .380 expanding properly and exceeding 12" of penetration when fired from a P3AT through 2 layers of denim. Critical Defense wasn't far off the mark, like 11.2" I think. My P3AT is loaded with Gold Dots and I don't feel uncomfortable about that. |
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Quoted: Because nobody makes a pocket sized 9mm yet. Even small guns like the PF-9 or LC9 are too big for pocket carry. Quoted: Quoted: With the introduction of ever better very small pistols chambered in 9x19 why bother with 380? Because nobody makes a pocket sized 9mm yet. Even small guns like the PF-9 or LC9 are too big for pocket carry. My CM9 is riding quite nicely in the front right pocket of my jeans right now, in an Uncle Mike's #2 pocket holster. I've found that 7+1 guns like the LC9 are too big, but the shorter grip of the CM9 makes the difference with pocket carry. It is still too bulky to pocket carry in dress slacks though... that's where the tiny .380s make a difference.
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Quoted:
My CM9 is riding quite nicely in the front right pocket of my jeans right now, in an Uncle Mike's #2 pocket holster. I've found that 7+1 guns like the LC9 are too big, but the shorter grip of the CM9 makes the difference with pocket carry. It is still too bulky to pocket carry in dress slacks though... that's where the tiny .380s make a difference. Quoted:
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With the introduction of ever better very small pistols chambered in 9x19 why bother with 380? Because nobody makes a pocket sized 9mm yet. Even small guns like the PF-9 or LC9 are too big for pocket carry. My CM9 is riding quite nicely in the front right pocket of my jeans right now, in an Uncle Mike's #2 pocket holster. I've found that 7+1 guns like the LC9 are too big, but the shorter grip of the CM9 makes the difference with pocket carry. It is still too bulky to pocket carry in dress slacks though... that's where the tiny .380s make a difference. Undeniable! |
| to touch on what DakotaFAL commented.. back in panic of the Clinton administration, I was carrying a Colt Pocketlite, and a friend's significant other a Colt .380 Govt... with a 90grain XTP (hot set up at the time) and PB powder, we got a 1250fps load out of the Govt model....about 100fps less with the Pocketlite... a lot of improvement of factory loads since then |
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If .380 plugs with cloth it'll typically penetrate well past 12 inches, with little expansion(some deformity).
12" is through the right arm, transecting the heart and lodging in the far chest wall. A frontal shot requires much less, even through an intervening arm. I attended an autopsy where the .380 Magtech H.P. struck a very large male, penetrated over 14" and smashed a spinal process, lodging in the spine. The .380 is fine for BUGS or carry in a hard NPE. Plus, a lot of people feel it's the only gun light and small enough to carry. Of, course, someone always posts a steel frame 3.5 " 1911 and growl that it's their pocket gun, only used to "fight their way to their rifle" Whatev. |
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M&P9C FTW! M&P9 Shield FTW! You're missing the point...we're talking about 380, not 9mm. I haven't been able to find a 9mm that fits the size requirements my wife has...so she has an LCP. I tried to get her to go with a 9mm Shield, but that was a no-go. Situations like this are why people are interested in advancements in 380. :) |
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That aint going in a pocket 
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Quoted:
That aint going in a pocket Quoted:
That aint going in a pocket I think some guys define"Pocket Gun" the way Navies used to define "Pocket Battleships" 
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Quoted:
I think some guys define"Pocket Gun" the way Navies used to define "Pocket Battleships" Quoted:
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That aint going in a pocket I think some guys define"Pocket Gun" the way Navies used to define "Pocket Battleships" The CM/PM9 is about the smallest 9mm out there, and it won't fit in a slacks pocket. |
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Quoted:
If .380 plugs with cloth it'll typically penetrate well past 12 inches, with little expansion(some deformity). http:// https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZjipQyDhuBA8y8oC5pqB4XL65RbMbbH5b4zjXr0UwoXJFEwCB6g 12" is through the right arm, transecting the heart and lodging in the far chest wall. A frontal shot requires much less, even through an intervening arm. I attended an autopsy where the .380 Magtech H.P. struck a very large male, penetrated over 14" and smashed a spinal process, lodging in the spine. The .380 is fine for BUGS or carry in a hard NPE. Plus, a lot of people feel it's the only gun light and small enough to carry. Of, course, someone always posts a steel frame 3.5 " 1911 and growl that it's their pocket gun, only used to "fight their way to their rifle" Whatev. +1 to all this. My daily CCW is a G17 and if anyone says that they can carry it in the same situations as a small 380 I'd like to see that. Even the Shield is huge compared to a LCP, Bodyguard, P3AT, etc. I highlighted where, IMO, the 380 shines. I'd rather have my full size but 380 ball is enough to make me feel OK if it's all I can have. |
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I carry a Glock 42 with Buffalo Bore which is published at 1175 fps. I am unable to measure velocity, but we shot into some milk jugs filled with water this last weekend. It went through the first two and into the third where I recovered the bullet. I would love to get my hands on ballistic gel for some tests. I have a 442 as a back-up on my ankle. I wear a t-shirt for work so the M&Pc and the G26 are just out of the question. They just won't conceal well enough.
Pics of the round and the recovered bullet. It feeds reliably, and I feel comfortable carrying it. 
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Current loadings for the 9x18 are basically identical to .380 ACP - maybe 50 fps more velocity.
---- I suspect some folks are missing the point about .380 and hollow points. Hollow points in the .380 can work really well and deliver both good expansion and 12" penetration - but only when the velocity is in a fairly narrow range. I'd withhold my enthusiasm for the Buffalo Bore hollow points in .380 unless you know both the velocity in your pistol and the expansion and penetration results at that velocity. For example BB sells the 90 gr JHP 27C loading with published velocities in different handguns: 1. BDA-3.75 inch barrel----1218 fps 2. Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel-----1200 fps 3. Colt Mustang Pocket Lite-2.75 inch barrel---1123 fps 4. Keltec---1100 fps And they state the muzzle velocity in various pistols for their 80 gr TAC-XP 27H load: 1231 — fps - Browning Double Action-3.75 inch barrel 1235 — fps - Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel - (faster than longer barrel above, no typo) 1130 — fps - Kel Tec PA3T-2.75 inch barrel 1136 — fps - Kahr P380-2.75 inch barrel However they don't state what the barrel length is for their 95 gr JHP 27D, they just list 1125 fps. Worse, they don't list the penetration data for any of thee rounds, and faster isn't always better. As in the XTP example above, pushing it faster is more likely to cause premature and/or excessive expansion and actually reduce penetration. At the other extreme, it you push it too slow, it may not nat expand at all and it will then give FMJ like penetration. I have no idea how the JHPs Buffalo Bore uses work at the velocities they indicate and consequently I'm not inclined to use them. If I used BB load for self defense it would probably be their 75 gr Hard Cast Flat Point - it's at least a known quantity with plenty of penetration at any practical barrel length. ---- Now I'm a big fan of a properly designed hollow point in the .380ACP when it's launched in right velocity range where it will give the desired penetration, but those are factors I need to know before I'll use any given hollow point load. |
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Quoted:
The new wave of .380s are all locked breech mechanism. Quoted:
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Meh. Not into blowback guns. Too much rock and roll I like compact 9mms More forgiving than similar sized blowback 380's There is always 9x18 makarov...... The new wave of .380s are all locked breech mechanism. Aaaaaaand - there is the issue right there. The 380 case can easily withstand 9x19mm (i.e. 9mm Luger) SAAMI standard pressure with 115 grain bullets - IF FIRED THROUGH A LOCKED BREACH GUN. I've done it. The RIGHT bullet at those SAAMI velocities can be viable for personal defense. Problem is: that same load through an old (or even brand new) blowback 380 could well blow a hole in the 380 case. Rest assured, if you were to widely-offer +p+ 380 ammunition - with warnings to only use it in a locked breach gun - there would be dumb-asses lined up to sue you for personal injury with lawyers in tow - even thought the ammo would be safe in locked breach guns. |
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I carry a Glock 42 with Buffalo Bore which is published at 1175 fps. I am unable to measure velocity, but we shot into some milk jugs filled with water this last weekend. It went through the first two and into the third where I recovered the bullet. I would love to get my hands on ballistic gel for some tests. I have a 442 as a back-up on my ankle. I wear a t-shirt for work so the M&Pc and the G26 are just out of the question. They just won't conceal well enough. Pics of the round and the recovered bullet. It feeds reliably, and I feel comfortable carrying it. <a href="http://s18.photobucket.com/user/FP2000H/media/Pistols/image_zps7224e2f1.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/FP2000H/Pistols/image_zps7224e2f1.jpg</a> <a href="http://s18.photobucket.com/user/FP2000H/media/Pistols/image_zps1b783d88.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/FP2000H/Pistols/image_zps1b783d88.jpg</a> <a href="http://s18.photobucket.com/user/FP2000H/media/Pistols/image_zps69e0e1b8.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/FP2000H/Pistols/image_zps69e0e1b8.jpg</a> Folks, do not take this poster's opinion that M&P 9c's can't be concealed well enough with just a tee shirt as the absolute truth. Folks carry the M&P compacts all the time, fully concealed, with a t-shirt. I'm one of them. |
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Quoted:
Aaaaaaand - there is the issue right there. The 380 case can easily withstand 9x19mm (i.e. 9mm Luger) SAAMI standard pressure with 115 grain bullets - IF FIRED THROUGH A LOCKED BREACH GUN. I've done it. The RIGHT bullet at those SAAMI velocities pressures can be viable for personal defense. Problem is: that same load through an old (or even brand new) blowback 380 could well blow a hole in the 380 case. Rest assured, if you were to widely-offer +p+ 380 ammunition - with warnings to only use it in a locked breach gun - there would be dumb-asses lined up to sue you for personal injury with lawyers in tow - even thought the ammo would be safe in locked breach guns. Quoted:
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Meh. Not into blowback guns. Too much rock and roll I like compact 9mms More forgiving than similar sized blowback 380's There is always 9x18 makarov...... The new wave of .380s are all locked breech mechanism. Aaaaaaand - there is the issue right there. The 380 case can easily withstand 9x19mm (i.e. 9mm Luger) SAAMI standard pressure with 115 grain bullets - IF FIRED THROUGH A LOCKED BREACH GUN. I've done it. The RIGHT bullet at those SAAMI velocities pressures can be viable for personal defense. Problem is: that same load through an old (or even brand new) blowback 380 could well blow a hole in the 380 case. Rest assured, if you were to widely-offer +p+ 380 ammunition - with warnings to only use it in a locked breach gun - there would be dumb-asses lined up to sue you for personal injury with lawyers in tow - even thought the ammo would be safe in locked breach guns. But rather than develop a +P+ 115 gr .380 round it's a lot simpler to go 2mm longer and just shoot a 115gr 9mm Para round. In the end you'll end up with locked breach pistols about the same size - and avoid all the lawsuits. Of course it will be a vicious little critter to shoot, and I'd prefer to have a plain old .380 round with a properly designed hollow point launched at the correct velocity. |
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Folks, do not take this poster's opinion that M&P 9c's can't be concealed well enough with just a tee shirt as the absolute truth. Folks carry the M&P compacts all the time, fully concealed, with a t-shirt. I'm one of them. Quoted:
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I carry a Glock 42 with Buffalo Bore which is published at 1175 fps. I am unable to measure velocity, but we shot into some milk jugs filled with water this last weekend. It went through the first two and into the third where I recovered the bullet. I would love to get my hands on ballistic gel for some tests. I have a 442 as a back-up on my ankle. I wear a t-shirt for work so the M&Pc and the G26 are just out of the question. They just won't conceal well enough. Pics of the round and the recovered bullet. It feeds reliably, and I feel comfortable carrying it. <a href="http://s18.photobucket.com/user/FP2000H/media/Pistols/image_zps7224e2f1.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/FP2000H/Pistols/image_zps7224e2f1.jpg</a> <a href="http://s18.photobucket.com/user/FP2000H/media/Pistols/image_zps1b783d88.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/FP2000H/Pistols/image_zps1b783d88.jpg</a> <a href="http://s18.photobucket.com/user/FP2000H/media/Pistols/image_zps69e0e1b8.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/FP2000H/Pistols/image_zps69e0e1b8.jpg</a> Folks, do not take this poster's opinion that M&P 9c's can't be concealed well enough with just a tee shirt as the absolute truth. Folks carry the M&P compacts all the time, fully concealed, with a t-shirt. I'm one of them. Everyone is different. It just doesn't work for my body type. Plus, at work I do a lot of sitting, standing, twisting, reaching, etc. The 42 fits the bill for me. |
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FP2000H -
I play golf with shirt tucked, rehab houses, run 5k events, bicycle, and ride dirtbikes while carrying an M&P compact. No one ever knows. Ever. It IS all dependent on body type. No question. But it is worth mentioning that your 'Can't be done' statement is not absolutely true. |
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FP2000H - I play golf with shirt tucked, rehab houses, run 5k events, bicycle, and ride dirtbikes while carrying an M&P compact. No one ever knows. Ever. It IS all dependent on body type. No question. But it is worth mentioning that your 'Can't be done' statement is not absolutely true. Pocket carry? I know some do it, but it's on the heavy side for a pocket. IWB? absolutely. |
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Pocket carry? I know some do it, but it's on the heavy side for a pocket. IWB? absolutely. Quoted:
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FP2000H - I play golf with shirt tucked, rehab houses, run 5k events, bicycle, and ride dirtbikes while carrying an M&P compact. No one ever knows. Ever. It IS all dependent on body type. No question. But it is worth mentioning that your 'Can't be done' statement is not absolutely true. Pocket carry? I know some do it, but it's on the heavy side for a pocket. IWB? absolutely. Appendix. |
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Quoted:
Folks, do not take this poster's opinion that M&P 9c's can't be concealed well enough with just a tee shirt as the absolute truth. Folks carry the M&P compacts all the time, fully concealed, with a t-shirt. I'm one of them. Quoted:
Quoted:
I carry a Glock 42 with Buffalo Bore which is published at 1175 fps. I am unable to measure velocity, but we shot into some milk jugs filled with water this last weekend. It went through the first two and into the third where I recovered the bullet. I would love to get my hands on ballistic gel for some tests. I have a 442 as a back-up on my ankle. I wear a t-shirt for work so the M&Pc and the G26 are just out of the question. They just won't conceal well enough. Pics of the round and the recovered bullet. It feeds reliably, and I feel comfortable carrying it. <a href="http://s18.photobucket.com/user/FP2000H/media/Pistols/image_zps7224e2f1.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/FP2000H/Pistols/image_zps7224e2f1.jpg</a> <a href="http://s18.photobucket.com/user/FP2000H/media/Pistols/image_zps1b783d88.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/FP2000H/Pistols/image_zps1b783d88.jpg</a> <a href="http://s18.photobucket.com/user/FP2000H/media/Pistols/image_zps69e0e1b8.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/FP2000H/Pistols/image_zps69e0e1b8.jpg</a> Folks, do not take this poster's opinion that M&P 9c's can't be concealed well enough with just a tee shirt as the absolute truth. Folks carry the M&P compacts all the time, fully concealed, with a t-shirt. I'm one of them. This. I was 5' 11" to 6' 0" (depending on the measurement--I've had physicals hit on both weights) and at one point I was IWBing a Glock 19 or a full-size 1911 under a T-shirt...and I weighed all of maybe 145-150lbs, tops. Probably more like 140-145 most days. My own mother, quite literally, couldn't tell. It's entirely possible to conceal a regular size gun under normal clothes. I just bought pants that were a touch roomier in the waistband, and selected shirts that had a little less taper to them. Even managed it under a tucked-in dress shirt, wearing suitably sized slacks or suit pants. Jacket optional 
It can be done. I've never really understood the fascination with pocket carry, though, except maybe as a backup in the off-side pocket...and even then, I think I'd rather have a J-frame AIWB on the off-side instead. Personally, I'm of the school of thought that says on the waist carry is preferable unless there is physically no other way to do it. And the selection of quality IWB holsters out there allows something the size of a PPS, PM9, or Shield to pretty much disappear under almost any clothing that isn't translucent, IMO. |
