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Posted: 5/11/2012 12:47:25 PM EDT
[#1]
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And to the guy who claimed .45 ACP Ball has limited penertration, and thats partially why the military dumped it. The military dropped .45 acp for NATO compatibility Once it hits flesh, .45 acp has plenty of penetration. Where it lacks penetration is through intermediate barriers. 9mm will penetrate through sheet steel much better than the .45. The 10mm will do better than either. 
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Posted: 5/12/2012 8:18:07 AM EDT
[#2]
Drive by .357 propaganda!
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Posted: 5/12/2012 12:22:02 PM EDT
[#3]
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No, but it'll apparently do it or get close from 7-8" (fixed) barrels. http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html <–––– The go to site for velocity claims IMHO IIRC, I got nearly 1600 from a 6 inch 586 with Rem 125s. That's the most I've seen from a pistol. I think like a lot of things, .357 has been slowly reduced in pressure over the years. Having just got into .357 I'm not as up and experienced with it as I am .38 super, Bit it seems like ALL the hot loads from back in the day, .357, .38 Super, 10mm, have all been calmed down a lot since the use of modern testing in loading. For instance, .38 Automatic basically started out as a 130 grain bullet at 1300FPS, but shook guns apart, so it was downloaded to around 1100 FPS. It was readopted as the Super .38, put in nickel cases and used in the 1911 back at 130@1300 FPS. Then DECADES later became the .38 Super +p, was dropped to 130@1250 but most factory loads chrono at around 1200 if advertised at 1250. (down and dirty example, not claiming 100% accuracy). My model 13 came with the .357 load data available from S&W branded ammo in the 70's and the stuff looks atrocious on paper. I'd really like to know the length of the test barrel. https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/417137_10151264187505346_736275345_22349227_1678368315_n.jpg I started reloading th late in life. The mid 90`s I Have reloading manuals that show a change in the CHARGE. It keeps going down. The powder company CLAIM its because the powder changes?? Ive seen this with the 9mm also! |
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Posted: 5/12/2012 12:22:49 PM EDT
[#4]
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What extra 500 fps? Most "full power" 10mm is 180 @ 1300. Most .40 S&W is 180 @ 1000. You insist that "we don't know" that Remchester et al is underloaded because "we don't have a test barrel" yet you insist full house 10mm must be 10,000 psi over spec in spite of not having a test barrel?! Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways. Either 200 fps second faster is either slightly warmer or it's not. 10mm loaded to SAAMI spec (37,500 PSI) will give you 1250-1300 FPS with a 180 grain bullet. (If you use Blue Dot, and only if you use Blue Dot, anything else is closer to 1200 fps) If you think you are getting more than that you need to buy a chronograph. 1000 fps is right for the 40S&W at 35,000 PSI. Winchester claims 1290 fps from their 175 Silvertip (yet you claim it is underloaded) (note it's closer to 1250 in the real world, and that 5 grain weight difference does make a difference) Hornady claims 1190 fps from their 180 XTP (yet you claim it is underloaded) So explain to me how double-tap can get 1350 without a) lying, or b) exceeding the pressure spec. Doing the same thing Norma did back in the day, run propriety powders. Sometimes manufactures will use a longer barrels! That will increase the velocity . Like a 357magnum 125gr SJHP at 1800 fps in one of my reloading manuals No way did that come from a 4inch barrel. No, but it'll apparently do it or get close from 7-8" (fixed) barrels. http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html <–––– The go to site for velocity claims IMHO Thanks for proving my point.
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Posted: 5/12/2012 12:33:10 PM EDT
[#5]
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What extra 500 fps? Most "full power" 10mm is 180 @ 1300. Most .40 S&W is 180 @ 1000. You insist that "we don't know" that Remchester et al is underloaded because "we don't have a test barrel" yet you insist full house 10mm must be 10,000 psi over spec in spite of not having a test barrel?! Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways. Either 200 fps second faster is either slightly warmer or it's not. 10mm loaded to SAAMI spec (37,500 PSI) will give you 1250-1300 FPS with a 180 grain bullet. (If you use Blue Dot, and only if you use Blue Dot, anything else is closer to 1200 fps) If you think you are getting more than that you need to buy a chronograph. 1000 fps is right for the 40S&W at 35,000 PSI. Winchester claims 1290 fps from their 175 Silvertip (yet you claim it is underloaded) (note it's closer to 1250 in the real world, and that 5 grain weight difference does make a difference) Hornady claims 1190 fps from their 180 XTP (yet you claim it is underloaded) So explain to me how double-tap can get 1350 without a) lying, or b) exceeding the pressure spec. Doing the same thing Norma did back in the day, run propriety powders. Sometimes manufactures will use a longer barrels! That will increase the velocity . Like a 357magnum 125gr SJHP at 1800 fps in one of my reloading manuals No way did that come from a 4inch barrel. No, but it'll apparently do it or get close from 7-8" (fixed) barrels. http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html <–––– The go to site for velocity claims IMHO IIRC, I got nearly 1600 from a 6 inch 586 with Rem 125s. That's the most I've seen from a pistol. I was just showing that barrel length adds to the picture. No one can get 1800FPS/125gr SJHP out of a 4inch But If one goes with a really long barrel over 8 it could be done BTW I gave up shooting 357 magnum/Hot loads for SD in 2000 and use just 38spl/38sp +P I found I could shoot faster and have better groups and still have enough penetration. |
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Posted: 5/12/2012 5:21:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: snip No, but it'll apparently do it or get close from 7-8" (fixed) barrels. http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html <–––– The go to site for velocity claims IMHO IIRC, I got nearly 1600 from a 6 inch 586 with Rem 125s. That's the most I've seen from a pistol. I think like a lot of things, .357 has been slowly reduced in pressure over the years. Having just got into .357 I'm not as up and experienced with it as I am .38 super, Bit it seems like ALL the hot loads from back in the day, .357, .38 Super, 10mm, have all been calmed down a lot since the use of modern testing in loading. For instance, .38 Automatic basically started out as a 130 grain bullet at 1300FPS, but shook guns apart, so it was downloaded to around 1100 FPS. It was readopted as the Super .38, put in nickel cases and used in the 1911 back at 130@1300 FPS. Then DECADES later became the .38 Super +p, was dropped to 130@1250 but most factory loads chrono at around 1200 if advertised at 1250. (down and dirty example, not claiming 100% accuracy). My model 13 came with the .357 load data available from S&W branded ammo in the 70's and the stuff looks atrocious on paper. I'd really like to know the length of the test barrel. https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/417137_10151264187505346_736275345_22349227_1678368315_n.jpg I started reloading th late in life. The mid 90`s I Have reloading manuals that show a change in the CHARGE. It keeps going down. The powder company CLAIM its because the powder changes?? Ive seen this with the 9mm also! I think some of the reason for the change has to do with increasing awareness of pressure curves and how they work. And perhaps maybe a little bit of lawyerly pussification. I've yet to see a powder company claim that they changed a powder significantly, which caused a change in loading data. For those of up who load lots of magnum rounds, 2400 has become something of a posterboy for this. The load data shows that charges for this load have gone down several times with manual updates. Persistent internet rumor states that this is because 2400 was reformulated some years back. Brian Pearce proved this was fallacy a couple of years ago, yet it still keeps getting repeated. As well, imagine the liability that would come from a company reformulating their powders in such a way. Anyway, there's much more to that whole thing, but I digress. |
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Posted: 5/12/2012 9:30:51 PM EDT
[#7]
FULL LOADED 10MM OUTPERFROMS A FULL HOUSE 357 MAGNUM ...AND A FULL HOUSE 357 MAGNUM WAY OUTPEFROMS 45 ACP
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Posted: 5/12/2012 10:00:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: FULL LOADED 10MM OUTPERFROMS A FULL HOUSE 357 MAGNUM ...AND A FULL HOUSE 357 MAGNUM WAY OUTPEFROMS 45 ACP Once you get your caps lock button fixed, I'd like some numbers to back both of your assertions above. |
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Posted: 5/13/2012 10:33:08 AM EDT
[#9]
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Drive by .357 propaganda! https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/532842_10150932998265039_577810038_11584268_541372476_n.jpg That's a sexy gun but 10mm pistols can carry almost twice as much, reload faster, and push the same bullet faster. |
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Posted: 5/13/2012 10:37:45 AM EDT
[#10]
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FULL LOADED 10MM OUTPERFROMS A FULL HOUSE 357 MAGNUM ...AND A FULL HOUSE 357 MAGNUM WAY OUTPEFROMS 45 ACP Once you get your caps lock button fixed, I'd like some numbers to back both of your assertions above. In my Speer and Hornady manuals, .357 pushes light bullets to about the same max velocity as 10mm but with heavier bullets, the 10mm pushes them faster. There's no arguing that the 10mm can be more powerful than .357 and is significantly more powerful than .45 ACP. Whether that power is useful for your individual needs is a completely separate question. |
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Posted: 5/13/2012 10:42:16 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: FULL LOADED 10MM OUTPERFROMS A FULL HOUSE 357 MAGNUM ...AND A FULL HOUSE 357 MAGNUM WAY OUTPEFROMS 45 ACP Once you get your caps lock button fixed, I'd like some numbers to back both of your assertions above. In my Speer and Hornady manuals, .357 pushes light bullets to about the same max velocity as 10mm but with heavier bullets, the 10mm pushes them faster. There's no arguing that the 10mm can be more powerful than .357 and is significantly more powerful than .45 ACP. Whether that power is useful for your individual needs is a completely separate question. [shrug] I've gotten 175 158 grain lead bullets to 1400 fps. Looks like the 10 can handle roughly equal to that or a little less. Edit: Hornady manual is often useless. I've got one right here that has only occasionally been worth opening. |
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Posted: 5/13/2012 1:26:15 PM EDT
[#12]
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So, theoretically the 10mm may be a bit better. Practically speaking, its a draw. Fun to discuss, but not worth walking across the street to trade for the other caliber. So besides doing a bunch of upgrades to your piece to make it fire some obscure .45 cartridge (and those upgrades entail a detriment to reliability), you have failed to adress magazine capacity. And 10mm obviously wins out in that category. 10mm pro's: 1)magazine capacity 2)Ballistics in almost every single category (FPS, energy(ft-lbs), penetration,...) 10mm con's: 1) price of ammunition |
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Posted: 5/13/2012 1:31:30 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Looking around there's a lot of weird overlap in performance between 10mm and .357 Mag.Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: FULL LOADED 10MM OUTPERFROMS A FULL HOUSE 357 MAGNUM ...AND A FULL HOUSE 357 MAGNUM WAY OUTPEFROMS 45 ACP Once you get your caps lock button fixed, I'd like some numbers to back both of your assertions above. In my Speer and Hornady manuals, .357 pushes light bullets to about the same max velocity as 10mm but with heavier bullets, the 10mm pushes them faster. There's no arguing that the 10mm can be more powerful than .357 and is significantly more powerful than .45 ACP. Whether that power is useful for your individual needs is a completely separate question. [shrug] I've gotten 175 158 grain lead bullets to 1400 fps. Looks like the 10 can handle roughly equal to that or a little less. Edit: Hornady manual is often useless. I've got one right here that has only occasionally been worth opening. .357 has a little higher case volume, 10mm has a little higher chamber pressure. One could argue bullet weight vs velocity all day long between the two, but it's spinning the wheels. I mean, I can easily find factory loaded 10mm ammo that is faster than 158 @ 1400 (I.E. buffalo bore heavy 10mm claiming 155 grain @ 1500 fps). Then again I can find factory .357 that's faster than that, but then I can find hand load data faster than that and it really only ends until you hit the gun blowing up stage. What it really boils down to is whether you want a round capable of making up to 700(+) Ft-lbs of energy in a revolver, or in a semi auto. |
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Posted: 5/13/2012 3:27:18 PM EDT
[#14]
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10mm pro's: 1)magazine capacity Pretty certain my Magazine capacity is on par with his 8-shot .357 actually.
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Posted: 5/13/2012 3:37:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Madcap72: That sums it up pretty well. I wasn't trying to make the claim that 10mm is ballistically superior to .357, just that it's similar in some ways. 10mm can, maybe, push some bullets faster. .357 will have a higher sectional density in the same bullet weight for theoretically greater penetration. 10mm will have higher capacity in most guns.
.357 is a great cartridge. 10mm is a great cartridge. .45 ACP is a great cartridge. They all serve well in their respective roles. 10mm is definitely more powerful than .45 ACP and, I think, more versatile than probably any other handgun cartridge. NVGdude: Yes, but your Delta Elite has more boolits than most other revolvers and faster reloads than all of them (assuming you're not Jerry Miculek) and Glock 20s and Witnesses have more than even 8 shot revolvers. In other words, the highest capacity .357 is only on par with the lowest capacity 10mm and still the 10 reloads faster, (unless you have a Coonan) It's always pointless to argue about which cartridge or gun is BEST. This thread was about whether 10mm is more powerful than .45 ACP, though and that's just a non-starter. No question. |
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Posted: 5/13/2012 4:09:45 PM EDT
[#16]
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NVGdude: Yes, but your Delta Elite has more boolits than most other revolvers and faster reloads than all of them ( You forgot "a much better trigger" (even a stock colt SA trigger is better than any DA trigger out there)
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Posted: 5/13/2012 5:24:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Quoted: Looking around there's a lot of weird overlap in performance between 10mm and .357 Mag.Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: FULL LOADED 10MM OUTPERFROMS A FULL HOUSE 357 MAGNUM ...AND A FULL HOUSE 357 MAGNUM WAY OUTPEFROMS 45 ACP Once you get your caps lock button fixed, I'd like some numbers to back both of your assertions above. In my Speer and Hornady manuals, .357 pushes light bullets to about the same max velocity as 10mm but with heavier bullets, the 10mm pushes them faster. There's no arguing that the 10mm can be more powerful than .357 and is significantly more powerful than .45 ACP. Whether that power is useful for your individual needs is a completely separate question. [shrug] I've gotten 175 158 grain lead bullets to 1400 fps. Looks like the 10 can handle roughly equal to that or a little less. Edit: Hornady manual is often useless. I've got one right here that has only occasionally been worth opening. .357 has a little higher case volume, 10mm has a little higher chamber pressure. One could argue bullet weight vs velocity all day long between the two, but it's spinning the wheels. I mean, I can easily find factory loaded 10mm ammo that is faster than 158 @ 1400 (I.E. buffalo bore heavy 10mm claiming 155 grain @ 1500 fps). Then again I can find factory .357 that's faster than that, but then I can find hand load data faster than that and it really only ends until you hit the gun blowing up stage. What it really boils down to is whether you want a round capable of making up to 700(+) Ft-lbs of energy in a revolver, or in a semi auto.  Exactly. For anybody to hit his caps lock and decisively claim that one cartridge is significantly better than the others is pure fallacy. We could go in a big circle all day long about the .357, 10mm, and I could even throw in the .45 Super just to be a pain in the ass if somebody wants to dismiss the .45 out of hand. |
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Posted: 5/13/2012 6:02:19 PM EDT
[#18]
.45 super very different than .45 ACP so to include it if someone dismisses .45 "out of hand" isn't quite right. .45 ACP with it's thin walls and low chamber pressure operates in such a different way than 10mm and .357. .45 super which traces its linage back to a parent case designed from day one with a 40k PSI chamber pressure is also in a different league than .45 ACP.
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Posted: 5/13/2012 7:37:20 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: .45 super very different than .45 ACP so to include it if someone dismisses .45 "out of hand" isn't quite right. .45 ACP with it's thin walls and low chamber pressure operates in such a different way than 10mm and .357. .45 super which traces its linage back to a parent case designed from day one with a 40k PSI chamber pressure is also in a different league than .45 ACP. And what does it take to make a good-quality .45 ACP shoot .45 Super? The most common 10mm seems to be a Glock, so let's say a Glock .45? It takes the brass and a spring. I've been considering a Glock 21SF to shoot .45 Super out of so I can use up the load of bullets I've got AND thumb my nose at those who constantly bray about the 10mm like those guys in the SNL skit go on about "Da bears!" |
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Posted: 5/13/2012 8:30:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Quoted: .45 super very different than .45 ACP so to include it if someone dismisses .45 "out of hand" isn't quite right. .45 ACP with it's thin walls and low chamber pressure operates in such a different way than 10mm and .357. .45 super which traces its linage back to a parent case designed from day one with a 40k PSI chamber pressure is also in a different league than .45 ACP. And what does it take to make a good-quality .45 ACP shoot .45 Super? The most common 10mm seems to be a Glock, so let's say a Glock .45? It takes the brass and a spring. I've been considering a Glock 21SF to shoot .45 Super out of so I can use up the load of bullets I've got AND thumb my nose at those who constantly bray about the 10mm like those guys in the SNL skit go on about "Da bears!" That's the key component right there. The only similarity between .45 super and .45 ACP are some of the external dimensions. .45 super is to .45 Winchester magnum as .40 S&W is to 10mm. |
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Posted: 5/13/2012 8:35:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: .45 super very different than .45 ACP so to include it if someone dismisses .45 "out of hand" isn't quite right. .45 ACP with it's thin walls and low chamber pressure operates in such a different way than 10mm and .357. .45 super which traces its linage back to a parent case designed from day one with a 40k PSI chamber pressure is also in a different league than .45 ACP. And what does it take to make a good-quality .45 ACP shoot .45 Super? The most common 10mm seems to be a Glock, so let's say a Glock .45? It takes the brass and a spring. I've been considering a Glock 21SF to shoot .45 Super out of so I can use up the load of bullets I've got AND thumb my nose at those who constantly bray about the 10mm like those guys in the SNL skit go on about "Da bears!" That's the key component right there. The only similarity between .45 super and .45 ACP are some of the external dimensions. .45 super is to .45 Winchester magnum as .40 S&W is to 10mm. Well, the idea is that the .45 Super is just as capable as 10mm and can be fired in the same size and style handguns. Not so with the .45 WinMag. Let's not start down that road. |
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Posted: 5/13/2012 8:55:16 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted: Snip That's the key component right there. The only similarity between .45 super and .45 ACP are some of the external dimensions. .45 super is to .45 Winchester magnum as .40 S&W is to 10mm. Well, the idea is that the .45 Super is just as capable as 10mm and can be fired in the same size and style handguns. Not so with the .45 WinMag. Lets no go throwing irrelevant things. The .45 super came from .451 detonics, which came from the .45 wincheter magnum. It comes from a design that started out as a high volume, high pressure (40,000 CUP) cartridge vs the .45 acp's 21k psi. So it's not irrelevant. .45 super is a slow .45 winmag, not a fast .45 ACP. Also, looking into the .45 super, it pretty much seems to match a lot of 10mm Ballistics, so it comes down to if more capacity is important. I.E. the GLOCK 21 can hold 13 rounds of .45 acp, or the GLOCK 20 that can hold 15 rounds. The 21 is actually a caliber conversion of the 20, which explains the odd number of .45 rounds it holds. Which gets into the realm of personal preference. |
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Posted: 5/14/2012 10:07:57 AM EDT
[#23]
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Drive by .357 propaganda! https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/532842_10150932998265039_577810038_11584268_541372476_n.jpg That's a sexy gun but 10mm pistols can carry almost twice as much, reload faster, and push the same bullet faster. Actually both push the similar weight bullets at same velocities +/- 50 fps. |
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Posted: 5/14/2012 10:39:28 AM EDT
[#24]
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Drive by .357 propaganda! https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/532842_10150932998265039_577810038_11584268_541372476_n.jpg That's a sexy gun but 10mm pistols can carry almost twice as much, reload faster, and push the same bullet faster. Actually both push the similar weight bullets at same velocities +/- 50 fps. Please see my other post. The one you quoted was intended to be friendly ribbing with a small component of truth. Both cartridges push light to medium bullets at similar velocity but the 10mm can push heavier bullets a touch faster. At least according to my books. |
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Posted: 5/14/2012 11:04:38 AM EDT
[#25]
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Drive by .357 propaganda! https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/532842_10150932998265039_577810038_11584268_541372476_n.jpg That's a sexy gun but 10mm pistols can carry almost twice as much, reload faster, and push the same bullet faster. Actually both push the similar weight bullets at same velocities +/- 50 fps. Please see my other post. The one you quoted was intended to be friendly ribbing with a small component of truth. Both cartridges push light to medium bullets at similar velocity but the 10mm can push heavier bullets a touch faster. At least according to my books. Reloading books? |
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Posted: 5/14/2012 2:49:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Yes, Speer and Hornady.
In any case, 10mm and .357 are at least similar in terms of external ballistics. |
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