Posted: 6/9/2011 9:05:56 AM EDT
I love this guy 
Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch has some really great vids. This one is on malfunction clearance. A topic every shooter should know and practice. You can do this at home with snap caps. Practice until it becomes second nature. It just might save your life someday. After reading the thread on handgun capacities ("for those of you who think 8 shots is enough"), the thought occured to me - all the ammo in world won't help you if you don't know (and practice) how to clear a jammed pistol. I'm sure most here already know all this. But for the few that might not ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug&NR=1 |
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Great video. Very direct no thought required immediate action is the way to go under stress.
I love the line "I don't care what's wrong with it, I beat the snot out of it until it runs"...(tap, rack, reload). During a class an LEO handgun instructor related to me an experience he had with a state police training program that served to underscore the need to train like you intend to fight. In the training program, for safety reasons, they had the officers stop, raise their hand and wait for a training officer in the event of a malfunction. Eventually and in hndsight not surprisingly, they found themselves reviewing the video of an engagement that occurred during a traffic stop and observed the officer experience a malfunction of his pistol while still receiving fire from the suspect. The officer performed exactly as trained - stopping, raising his hand and looking over his shoulder for a training officer to provide assistance. It was one of those "oh shit we have a serious problem" moments for the training staff. Since hearing that, I now also treat malfunctions on the range like I would in the field and don't stop to analyze a jam but rather clear it and continue to shoot - then analyze what failed or went wrong after I reach slide lock. |
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I do try to practice with snap caps at the range every trip. Every few mags or so I have my shooting partner randomly load a snap cap into my mag. Bang bang bang click.... It helps build up the response and muscle memory for tap rack bang. Not saying I'm Jason Bourne or Jack Bauer but I do think I could correctly fix a malfunction fairly decisively. 4073 |
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I agree that for a trained student, especially LE, I would expect them to fix the problem and finish the fight / drill. However I have heard that exact same story recounted by numerous trainers from agencies / organizations over many many years, but I have yet to actually see any video or first hand accounts of those who witnessed such a thing. While it may have been true at some point in time, somewhere, I think that this story has been adopted by many just to relate a training point.
During a class an LEO handgun instructor related to me an experience he had with a state police training program that served to underscore the need to train like you intend to fight. If anyone has this video, I would really be interested in seeing it. |
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Quoted: Why everyone should be taking all the classes they can. Dont really get why hes holding onto his mag when hes clearing the double feed. Fucker should be on the deck. Well...Looks like it's the only one he's got, so gotta make due. This video is pretty simple...and basic...but I watch it about twice a month. The only thing I could add is if you have to tap-rack-bang twice in a row I'd drop the mag and go with a new mag if available. ETA: And I had to do that because my range partner loaded two snap caps in a row in my mag, which I cleared both....followed by a legit FTF...so I dropped the mag and went for my last fresh one. I'm still kinda mad at him but at the same time I'm really glad he did what he did. |
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Why everyone should be taking all the classes they can. Dont really get why hes holding onto his mag when hes clearing the double feed. Fucker should be on the deck. Well...Looks like it's the only one he's got, so gotta make due. This video is pretty simple...and basic...but I watch it about twice a month. The only thing I could add is if you have to tap-rack-bang twice in a row I'd drop the mag and go with a new mag if available. If I have a weapon malfunction, once the magazine leaves the gun its not going back in 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why everyone should be taking all the classes they can. Dont really get why hes holding onto his mag when hes clearing the double feed. Fucker should be on the deck. Well...Looks like it's the only one he's got, so gotta make due. This video is pretty simple...and basic...but I watch it about twice a month. The only thing I could add is if you have to tap-rack-bang twice in a row I'd drop the mag and go with a new mag if available. If I have a weapon malfunction, once the magazine leaves the gun its not going back in Yeah, I agree....mags being weak points. But if that's all you got....one mag with ammo...then what? |
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Why everyone should be taking all the classes they can. Dont really get why hes holding onto his mag when hes clearing the double feed. Fucker should be on the deck. Well...Looks like it's the only one he's got, so gotta make due. This video is pretty simple...and basic...but I watch it about twice a month. The only thing I could add is if you have to tap-rack-bang twice in a row I'd drop the mag and go with a new mag if available. If I have a weapon malfunction, once the magazine leaves the gun its not going back in Yeah, I agree....mags being weak points. But if that's all you got....one mag with ammo...then what? Then you make bad tactical decisions and are about to pay. |
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Why everyone should be taking all the classes they can. Dont really get why hes holding onto his mag when hes clearing the double feed. Fucker should be on the deck. Well...Looks like it's the only one he's got, so gotta make due. This video is pretty simple...and basic...but I watch it about twice a month. The only thing I could add is if you have to tap-rack-bang twice in a row I'd drop the mag and go with a new mag if available. If I have a weapon malfunction, once the magazine leaves the gun its not going back in I totally understand the mindset of holding onto the mag. Why drop it to the ground and then have to bend over and pick it up again? You're assuming the mag was the problem (and sometimes they are). But in the 3 senerios he's presenting, this isn't the case. If you still have ammo left in the mag, why throw it away? Clint uses the same type of technique for tactical reloads (holding onto the mag), even though he's not a big fan of the tactic itself. But the concept remains of never discarding a mag that still has good ammo in it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbUgANV_yL4&feature=related |
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Why everyone should be taking all the classes they can. Dont really get why hes holding onto his mag when hes clearing the double feed. Fucker should be on the deck. Well...Looks like it's the only one he's got, so gotta make due. This video is pretty simple...and basic...but I watch it about twice a month. The only thing I could add is if you have to tap-rack-bang twice in a row I'd drop the mag and go with a new mag if available. If I have a weapon malfunction, once the magazine leaves the gun its not going back in I totally understand the mindset of holding onto the mag. Why drop it to the ground and then have to bend over and pick it up again? You're assuming the mag was the problem (and sometimes they are). But in the 3 senerios he's presenting, this isn't the case. If you still have ammo left in the mag, why throw it away? Clint uses the same type of technique for tactical reloads (holding onto the mag), even though he's not a big fan of the tactic itself. But the concept remains of never discarding a mag that still has good ammo in it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbUgANV_yL4&feature=related How do you know if the mag is causing the problem or not? Whos going to sit around and finger fuck the mag to make sure it works ok. A tact reload and clearing a malfunction are a little diffrent. No reason to toss the mag when reloading. Your right though the 1st drill he has no reason to drop the mag on a FTF. |
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How do you know if the mag is causing the problem or not? Whos going to sit around and finger fuck the mag to make sure it works ok. A tact reload and clearing a malfunction are a little diffrent. No reason to toss the mag when reloading. Your right though the 1st drill he has no reason to drop the mag on a FTF. And that was my point. I understand clearing a malfunction and a tact load are different. But I still think in both cases you should hold onto the mag if there's ammo in it. It only takes an extra second to drop the mag into your pocket. Yeah, I agree with you on the third drill. The mag could very well have been the problem. |
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Get his Pistol Video.
I wish I could afford a trip to Thunder Ranch - Clint is so pragmatic it is not even funny. ‘Beat on until it works’ – ‘Whhhy?’. We learned the same mal-function stuff at Front Sight but it was much more clinical. FS is only a couple more hrs away than TR and way cheaper. I just bought 4-day pistol courses for the whole family for less than one person at TR. Oh well, FS it is..... |
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I like how he just racks the slide and doesn't do the stupid roll. Rolling the gun on its side is the stupidest, most useless movement in malfunction clearing. Immediate action I tend to leave the gun upright. If I go into a type 2 where I am ripping the mag and working the slide, I will go ejection port down. From a lot of malfunction training and experience I find that port side down when working the slide is an advantage. Take a look at Clint's video at about the 4:30 mark. It takes him 4 racks before the casing clears and a fifth for good measure. I have experienced this time and time again where the casing likes to hang up. A simple roll and port side down greatly reduces this issue and often allows the casing to fall out where an upright weapon often hangs up. Time is money if your shooting to save your life and you weapon goes click. Also I do not leave the weapon upright when I reload so the port side down is already in position to accept the new mag with my reload technique. I don't lose any speed and gain better reliability when clearing the weapon. YMMV |
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I like how he just racks the slide and doesn't do the stupid roll. Rolling the gun on its side is the stupidest, most useless movement in malfunction clearing. Immediate action I tend to leave the gun upright. If I go into a type 2 where I am ripping the mag and working the slide, I will go ejection port down. From a lot of malfunction training and experience I find that port side down when working the slide is an advantage. Take a look at Clint's video at about the 4:30 mark. It takes him 4 racks before the casing clears and a fifth for good measure. I have experienced this time and time again where the casing likes to hang up. A simple roll and port side down greatly reduces this issue and often allows the casing to fall out where an upright weapon often hangs up. Time is money if your shooting to save your life and you weapon goes click. Also I do not leave the weapon upright when I reload so the port side down is already in position to accept the new mag with my reload technique. I don't lose any speed and gain better reliability when clearing the weapon. YMMV What gets me is seeing guys make it a point to roll the gun over so "gravity can help." I see it all the time: guys pull the slide back, hold it, roll the gun over, shake it, roll it over some more, shake it again, twist their body so the gun can roll over a little bit more, etc... (Obviously, the "slingshot" guys need to roll the gun so they get a good grip on the slide.) That and hearing people say "tap, rack, roll" or, even worse "tap, rack, re-asess" just drives me up the wall. Just a weird pet peeve of mine I guess. 
Personlly, if I have to go past immediate action, I bring the gun back in front of me a little lower than where I reload at. At that point, the gun is pointing slightly up, but I still don't roll it. (It may roll over slightly as a function of me racking the slide furiously.) I figure there's a nice big magwell for the rounds to fall out through. |
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I like how he just racks the slide and doesn't do the stupid roll. Rolling the gun on its side is the stupidest, most useless movement in malfunction clearing. Immediate action I tend to leave the gun upright. If I go into a type 2 where I am ripping the mag and working the slide, I will go ejection port down. From a lot of malfunction training and experience I find that port side down when working the slide is an advantage. Take a look at Clint's video at about the 4:30 mark. It takes him 4 racks before the casing clears and a fifth for good measure. I have experienced this time and time again where the casing likes to hang up. A simple roll and port side down greatly reduces this issue and often allows the casing to fall out where an upright weapon often hangs up. Time is money if your shooting to save your life and you weapon goes click. Also I do not leave the weapon upright when I reload so the port side down is already in position to accept the new mag with my reload technique. I don't lose any speed and gain better reliability when clearing the weapon. YMMV What gets me is seeing guys make it a point to roll the gun over so "gravity can help." I see it all the time: guys pull the slide back, hold it, roll the gun over, shake it, roll it over some more, shake it again, twist their body so the gun can roll over a little bit more, etc... (Obviously, the "slingshot" guys need to roll the gun so they get a good grip on the slide.) That and hearing people say "tap, rack, roll" or, even worse "tap, rack, re-asess" just drives me up the wall. Just a weird pet peeve of mine I guess.
Personlly, if I have to go past immediate action, I bring the gun back in front of me a little lower than where I reload at. At that point, the gun is pointing slightly up, but I still don't roll it. (It may roll over slightly as a function of me racking the slide furiously.) I figure there's a nice big magwell for the rounds to fall out through. I understand I probably do more malfunction stuff (teaching, training etc) than most normal shooters can comprehend, therefore I realize that my experiences due to the high volume is probably statistically low in the grand scheme of things. Having said that, I don't take great issue with a muzzle up clearance, but another issue that I get on occasion is for the casing to actually flip backwards and slide right over top of the ejector. A muzzle up does me no good here. Again statistically low, but I have managed to accomplish this feat many times. Maybe I am just lucky, or perhaps Murphy is on his game and we have to get creative, but I tend to do what I have personally experienced and the best ways to defeat the most possible variations without losing time / efficiency. Again what works for me, may not work for everyone. Edit - I do not imply that you are a normal shooter as you are not. You look to be highly skilled and shoot quite often. |
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<snip> Edit - I do not imply that you are a normal shooter as you are not. You look to be highly skilled and shoot quite often. Thanks. I'm sure you realize I didn't mean to imply that you're wrong about rolling the gun for a remedial action. I know you know your shit. I was mainly referring to immediate action, which we both agree, works just fine with the gun upright. I even spent hours one day with every autopistol I own, a pile of live rounds, empty brass, and snap caps trying to prove my theory on keeping the gun upright. I couldn't produce a jam that required tilting the gun. You probably get to shoot more than I do (I shoot as often as I can, but not nearly as often as I'd like) and nearly all my remedial-action-required malfs are purposely induced in classes. Next range trip, I'll throw in some double-feeds and play with it some more. |
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Originally Posted By SSDSurf ...
Originally Posted By echofivekilo ...
Thanks for the input. Even though you seem to differ, I sense you both have a lot of experience with these types of drills. Me, I'm just a normal shooter and still learning. I've tried both techniques while practicing. I find rolling the gun a little sometimes helps, but don't do it all the time. I've also experienced the flipped casing once on a double feed. That was interesting. Had to beat the snot out of it (as Clint would say) to get the jam cleared. I really enjoy the malfunction drills, and try to practice as much as I can. But I don't have the same level of experience you guys seem to have. Just curious if either of you are LEOs or MIL? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why everyone should be taking all the classes they can. Dont really get why hes holding onto his mag when hes clearing the double feed. Fucker should be on the deck. Well...Looks like it's the only one he's got, so gotta make due. This video is pretty simple...and basic...but I watch it about twice a month. The only thing I could add is if you have to tap-rack-bang twice in a row I'd drop the mag and go with a new mag if available. If I have a weapon malfunction, once the magazine leaves the gun its not going back in Yeah, I agree....mags being weak points. But if that's all you got....one mag with ammo...then what? Then you make bad tactical decisions and are about to pay. That's a cool statement and all....but seriously... not talking about how you got to that bad situation, bad situations happen, part of the reason to carry weapons. But IF that is your last/only mag....you wouldn't try it again? I'm not talking manufacturing the ideal situation, I'm talking about dealing with the one you find yourself in. |
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Good video - only critique is that I don't think that holding a mag with your pinky finger is a smart thing to do in a real fight. For demo purposes, OK but IF you're going to retain it, stow it somewhere so your hands can do what they need to do THEN reload it. (For the record, I'm a dump it on the ground kinda' guy)
More people need to be exposed to training - especially malfunction clearance drills - but when they shoot 100 rounds a year and "my gun always works", they don't even realize that they need these skills. |
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Just curious if either of you are LEOs or MIL? I spent 4 years on active duty in the Marine Corps. For a short time, my duty weapon was a pistol. Now, I shoot competitively 1-3 times a month and take around 2 classes a year. I also shoot with a lot of guys with pretty impressive resume's whos brains I pick whenever I can. |
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Just curious if either of you are LEOs or MIL? I spent 4 years on active duty in the Marine Corps. For a short time, my duty weapon was a pistol. Now, I shoot competitively 1-3 times a month and take around 2 classes a year. I also shoot with a lot of guys with pretty impressive resume's whos brains I pick whenever I can. Figured you were probably military or ex-military by your screen name. Thanks again for the helpful info. |
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Ok, now I'm wondering if holding onto the mag is the right thing to do afterall? A few here seem to think not. I've always trained that way (holding the mag) and don't seem to have any problem sticking it between my pinky and ring finger. Just for the record, it wasn't just Clint's video, but also others I've seen that were teaching that very same method.
So what does the group here think? For more complicated jams; drop it, or try to hold onto it? |
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Why everyone should be taking all the classes they can. Dont really get why hes holding onto his mag when hes clearing the double feed. Fucker should be on the deck. Well...Looks like it's the only one he's got, so gotta make due. This video is pretty simple...and basic...but I watch it about twice a month. The only thing I could add is if you have to tap-rack-bang twice in a row I'd drop the mag and go with a new mag if available. If I have a weapon malfunction, once the magazine leaves the gun its not going back in Yeah, I agree....mags being weak points. But if that's all you got....one mag with ammo...then what? Then you make bad tactical decisions and are about to pay. That's a cool statement and all....but seriously... not talking about how you got to that bad situation, bad situations happen, part of the reason to carry weapons. But IF that is your last/only mag....you wouldn't try it again? I'm not talking manufacturing the ideal situation, I'm talking about dealing with the one you find yourself in. Your right man, if its my last mag Im keeping it for sure. 99.9% of the time Im going to have atleast 2 more mags with me and if I get a double feed Im dropping the mag, clearing the jam and reloading a fresh mag. Maybe after Im loaded up and the situation is clear Ill reach down and grab it. For training reason if I have a bad jam Im not going to practice retaining the mag unless its going to a dump pouch. |
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Just to be clear, Clint Smith and Thunder Ranch is top quality. Clint is definitely a character and has his passionate views on how to do things as do most great trainers. He is very animated and has his unique way of expressing what he is teaching. I will also say to be wary of any trainer that might say that their way is the best or only way of doing things. Basically be open minded try things out for yourself and find what works for you.
Thanks for the input. Even though you seem to differ, I sense you both have a lot of experience with these types of drills. Me, I'm just a normal shooter and still learning. I've tried both techniques while practicing. I find rolling the gun a little sometimes helps, but don't do it all the time. I've also experienced the flipped casing once on a double feed. That was interesting. Had to beat the snot out of it (as Clint would say) to get the jam cleared. I really enjoy the malfunction drills, and try to practice as much as I can. But I don't have the same level of experience you guys seem to have. Just curious if either of you are LEOs or MIL? Having said that if you look at the links in my signature to my youtube channel and the facebook page, you will probably get a good idea of my background. In short, I am on the operational side of things as well as the training side of the house. I can teach any level but the majority of those I teach are advanced shooters and my focus is on advanced tactical or combat style shooting. I have taught from Local, State and Fed LE and certain military units. I have done some adjunct work teaching civilians but most of my instruction is closed course stuff. It is good to see that you are interested in training and better yourself in regards to this topic. It isn't always the most fun or glamorous thing to train, but if it happens in a real critical incident, it can be one of the most important things that you have ever trained to do. This is my immediate action response. Simple tap, rack without a roll to port side down as I am not stripping a mag and clearing a more complex issue. This is a simple drill to practice with dummy rounds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPp7qSxH1OU |
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Thanks, that's a cool video. I like the idea of showing it without sound first (to watch for the flinch).
I've practiced that drill, but not for a flinch. As you said, it's also used for immediate action response training of a malfunction. I do enjoy the training, well, at least at the level I'm practicing it at. I just want to continue to learn, and get better. What's your opinion on holding onto a mag, or droping it when clearing a complex jam (like a double feed)? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why everyone should be taking all the classes they can. Dont really get why hes holding onto his mag when hes clearing the double feed. Fucker should be on the deck. Well...Looks like it's the only one he's got, so gotta make due. This video is pretty simple...and basic...but I watch it about twice a month. The only thing I could add is if you have to tap-rack-bang twice in a row I'd drop the mag and go with a new mag if available. If I have a weapon malfunction, once the magazine leaves the gun its not going back in Yeah, I agree....mags being weak points. But if that's all you got....one mag with ammo...then what? Then you make bad tactical decisions and are about to pay. That's a cool statement and all....but seriously... not talking about how you got to that bad situation, bad situations happen, part of the reason to carry weapons. But IF that is your last/only mag....you wouldn't try it again? I'm not talking manufacturing the ideal situation, I'm talking about dealing with the one you find yourself in. Your right man, if its my last mag Im keeping it for sure. 99.9% of the time Im going to have atleast 2 more mags with me and if I get a double feed Im dropping the mag, clearing the jam and reloading a fresh mag. Maybe after Im loaded up and the situation is clear Ill reach down and grab it. For training reason if I have a bad jam Im not going to practice retaining the mag unless its going to a dump pouch. I'm right there with you brother, being the ammo easter bunny.  Like I said before...I also ditch the mag after a bad jam: meaning double feed, or two minor failures to feed/fire/eject in a row so I know where you're coming from. |