Posted: 4/21/2011 2:14:11 PM EDT
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how do you know if a gun is ok to use with it? i tried searching but i cant search for something with only 2 characters...
any links to where i can learn about these loads would be great! (would they be ok in a HK P30?) |
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| See if the manual says it can use SAAMI standards. That includes +p but NOT +p+. I have never run across a gun that said it can use +p+ in the manual though. If it doesn't say anything at all, then call the MFG and ask them to show it to you in writing somewhere. |
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get a glock and fugetaboutit you mean fugetabout my hand right?  Don't start nothin  I wouldn't be afraid to shoot a +P load from any 9mm Glock. Just don't go shooting really hot .40 caliber. That said I have a G27 and have shot almost every major manufacturer loading out of it with no problems. I just don't shoot ammo that has lots of set-back from re-chambering. I shoot it before it gets to that point. |
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I just realized why there is +P ammo. I've wondered about that for quite awhile (until about a year ago the "smallest" caliber handgun I'd ever owned was a .357 magnum).
There is +P ammo for the same reason there are turbo/super chargers......its how you make something of smaller displacement seem to have the same power as something of larger displacement. Just like cars, only in handguns. Not trying to start anything here but I'm going to make some statements some folks won't agree with, but that's okay, that's why they say what they do about opinions. Machines are designed and fabricated with a certain range of operation in mind. A good design also has a safey factor included to insure that under normal variances of operation the mechanism will continue to operate reliably and safely. While +P ammo may be within the safety factor of the design it is not within the normal range of the guns design/operation or it would be called 9mm ammo, not 9mm +P. Remember, that's why S&W came out with the L frame revolvers. The K frames were supposed to be okay for limited .357 magnum ammo use while mostly shooting .38 specials. When more people began shooting more .357 ammo through them they "loosened up" sooner and required "tuning up/repairs". No I have no experience with +P ammo causing any issue in my 9mm and I never will, because i'll stick with standard pressure 9mm loads in my Browning and trust to my marksmanship skills to put the bullets where they need to go rather than the hope that a little bit more velocity will compensate for the size of the bullet. |
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I just realized why there is +P ammo. I've wondered about that for quite awhile (until about a year ago the "smallest" caliber handgun I'd ever owned was a .357 magnum). There is +P ammo for the same reason there are turbo/super chargers......its how you make something of smaller displacement seem to have the same power as something of larger displacement. Just like cars, only in handguns. Not trying to start anything here but I'm going to make some statements some folks won't agree with, but that's okay, that's why they say what they do about opinions. Machines are designed and fabricated with a certain range of operation in mind. A good design also has a safey factor included to insure that under normal variances of operation the mechanism will continue to operate reliably and safely. While +P ammo may be within the safety factor of the design it is not within the normal range of the guns design/operation or it would be called 9mm ammo, not 9mm +P. Remember, that's why S&W came out with the L frame revolvers. The K frames were supposed to be okay for limited .357 magnum ammo use while mostly shooting .38 specials. When more people began shooting more .357 ammo through them they "loosened up" sooner and required "tuning up/repairs". No I have no experience with +P ammo causing any issue in my 9mm and I never will, because i'll stick with standard pressure 9mm loads in my Browning and trust to my marksmanship skills to put the bullets where they need to go rather than the hope that a little bit more velocity will compensate for the size of the bullet. I would say that your entire post was pretty much truth, not opinion. I don't like having to use +P's in my firearms either. I no longer have 9mm's or 38 specials either. |
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Modern engines make more horsepower with less displacement and run longer with less maintenance. translate into gunspeak for me please The above poster tried to relate handguns cartridges to engine displacement, which is, of course, completely rediculous. However, even if handguns were like engines, gun technology, like engine technology has come a long way and a modern gun chambered for a given cartridge will likely run longer, with less failures, shooter high pressure loads, with less wear, than older designs. |
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Sure the new guns are better. That's why the makers come out with new and improved models every few years (while my 1911 made in 1917 still works great with the ammo it was designed to use).
The older I get the more I'm stuck in the past. What makes something last longer is a combination of luck (did you buy one that was put together correctly with pieces that were made correctly) and how you treat it and maintain it. My old IROC has 185,000 miles on it and runs like a top. The junkyard is full of other cars that didn't make it anywhere near the same mileage before someone tore something up. If you feel the need to run higher than standard pressure ammo in your guns to compensate for what you feel is substandard perfomance in the primary ammo that's everyone's personal choice. To say it will not accelerate wear/tear is also ridiculous. The manufacturers say the metal and metal treatment is better. S&W said that with their first SS handguns and look at all the issues those had. S&W also said that about the K frame .357's and again, remember those problems. Does Colt still make the 10 mm 1911 style guns? Modifications are a way of lengthening the life of a design. No matter what they (engineers) model on a computer, test in a lab, etc., etc. when they get the products out to us users we well find ways to use/abuse those designs that they could not foresee. Issues come up that have to be resolved for the product to stay viable in the market place. Cars and guns are a lot alike. I like'em if they work for me. Big bores and V8's fit my world better than small bores and 4 cylinders. All my favorite stuff is old, like I'm getting. Buy what you want, shoot what you want. Its a good thing we don't all like the same stuff. Otherwise there would be more shortages and no innovation. Have a good one. I've got to stop and take a bunch of pills. |
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Modern engines make more horsepower with less displacement and run longer with less maintenance. translate into gunspeak for me please The above poster tried to relate handguns cartridges to engine displacement, which is, of course, completely rediculous. However, even if handguns were like engines, gun technology, like engine technology has come a long way and a modern gun chambered for a given cartridge will likely run longer, with less failures, shooter high pressure loads, with less wear, than older designs. Take any two otherwise identical engines. One of them a naturally aspirated, low performance version and the other a turbo charged high performance version. The naturally aspirated, low performance engine will have a less frequent maintenance schedule and a longer overall life cycle. The high performance, turbo charged version will have an increased and therefore more costly maintenance schedule as well as a shorter life cycle. The same goes for a firearm when two identical firearms are compared, one shooting normal pressure ammunition and the other being fed a steady diet of +P; it's a basic tenet of engineering. Additionally, while the metallurgy employed in modern firearms is generally superior to that of older designs, there are often other design considerations that render modern guns less durable over time overall. For example, consider those manufactured with aluminum frames or high tech alloy cylinders. Those will not stand up to repeated firing with heavy loads as well as older designs incorporating only steel. Likewise, the tiny pocket pistols that are popular these days. Modern design produces great pistols using new materials, but the prime design parameter is often not longevity under high stress conditions, but rather low weight, reduced cost, and reduced size. Using small displacement, high performance engines designed to squeeze more power from a limited engine displacement as an analog for comparing the loading of cartridges to higher, +P, pressures to achieve the same purpose is entirely valid. I wouldn't be so eager to reject the man's well thought out assertions as being completely "rediculous" (sic). |
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You guys are reading way too much into what I posted.
A Glock 17 or other modern 9mm handgun will shoot more +P rounds without problems than a old 9mm like a Luger or p38 will standard pressure rounds. You could run most modern 9mm handguns a lifetime on +P ammo. +P ammo isn't a "bad" thing. Will it accelerate wear? Sure! Significantly? With the amount most folks shoot it? No... Remember CIP (European) standard pressure 9mm has a higher pressure ceiling than SAAMI 9mm +P! |
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You guys are reading way too much into what I posted. A Glock 17 or other modern 9mm handgun will shoot more +P rounds without problems than a old 9mm like a Luger or p38 will standard pressure rounds. You could run most modern 9mm handguns a lifetime on +P ammo. +P ammo isn't a "bad" thing. Will it accelerate wear? Sure! Significantly? With the amount most folks shoot it? No... Remember CIP (European) standard pressure 9mm has a higher pressure ceiling than SAAMI 9mm +P! 
That certainly does make a lot of sense. |
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Modern engines make more horsepower with less displacement and run longer with less maintenance. translate into gunspeak for me please Roughly translated, the 9mm is a really old cartridge and at the time, it made all the power it could. Now almost a century later, powder technology has advanced and the same case can be loaded wayyy higher than with the old powder. So "9mm" loads are comparable to the original design, and "9mm+p" take advantage of improved propelants - assuming your gun is in condition enough to shoot +P. |
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You guys are reading way too much into what I posted. A Glock 17 or other modern 9mm handgun will shoot more +P rounds without problems than a old 9mm like a Luger or p38 will standard pressure rounds. You could run most modern 9mm handguns a lifetime on +P ammo. +P ammo isn't a "bad" thing. Will it accelerate wear? Sure! Significantly? With the amount most folks shoot it? No... Remember CIP (European) standard pressure 9mm has a higher pressure ceiling than SAAMI 9mm +P!
That certainly does make a lot of sense. This last PD class had Smith M&P 9FS and shot Speer 115gr GD 9mm +P+ (1400rds per recruit). They had problems with the front sights loosening up. Aside from that, no other problems. Mind you, Smith only suggest +P not +P+. Smith was made aware of the issue and now has an improved front sight base out made by Trijicon that should take care of the issue. Recoil springs will need to be changed out also with lots of rounds downrange. The last time we chrono'd Speer 115gr GD +P+ was 1320+/- fps, WIN 9mm Nato 124gr fmj was 1200fps, Speer 124gr GD +P was 1240fps, Fed eagle 115gr fmj was 1050fps. WIN Ranger 127gr +P+ was 1250fps. Most people will never shoot this amount (1400rds +P+) as ammo is pricey. Most will shoot Wally specials and save the "good" stuff for carry or HD. If that's so, then this is academic. |
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You guys are reading way too much into what I posted. A Glock 17 or other modern 9mm handgun will shoot more +P rounds without problems than a old 9mm like a Luger or p38 will standard pressure rounds. You could run most modern 9mm handguns a lifetime on +P ammo. +P ammo isn't a "bad" thing. Will it accelerate wear? Sure! Significantly? With the amount most folks shoot it? No... Remember CIP (European) standard pressure 9mm has a higher pressure ceiling than SAAMI 9mm +P!
That certainly does make a lot of sense. This last PD class had Smith M&P 9FS and shot Speer 115gr GD 9mm +P+ (1400rds per recruit). They had problems with the front sights loosening up. Aside from that, no other problems. Mind you, Smith only suggest +P not +P+. Smith was made aware of the issue and now has an improved front sight base out made by Trijicon that should take care of the issue. Recoil springs will need to be changed out also with lots of rounds downrange. The last time we chrono'd Speer 115gr GD +P+ was 1320+/- fps, WIN 9mm Nato 124gr fmj was 1200fps, Speer 124gr GD +P was 1240fps, Fed eagle 115gr fmj was 1050fps. WIN Ranger 127gr +P+ was 1250fps. Most people will never shoot this amount (1400rds +P+) as ammo is pricey. Most will shoot Wally specials and save the "good" stuff for carry or HD. If that's so, then this is academic. That Spear +P+ is getting up into .357 magnum power. That's quite impressive. The M&P line of pistols are tough. I'm curious about the recoil of a +P+. At 1300+ fps, its has got to have ample noticible recoil. My brother has a 9mm and some +P+ ammo. I think I'm going to invite him to my club tomorrow. |
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You guys are reading way too much into what I posted. A Glock 17 or other modern 9mm handgun will shoot more +P rounds without problems than a old 9mm like a Luger or p38 will standard pressure rounds. You could run most modern 9mm handguns a lifetime on +P ammo. +P ammo isn't a "bad" thing. Will it accelerate wear? Sure! Significantly? With the amount most folks shoot it? No... Remember CIP (European) standard pressure 9mm has a higher pressure ceiling than SAAMI 9mm +P!
That certainly does make a lot of sense. This last PD class had Smith M&P 9FS and shot Speer 115gr GD 9mm +P+ (1400rds per recruit). They had problems with the front sights loosening up. Aside from that, no other problems. Mind you, Smith only suggest +P not +P+. Smith was made aware of the issue and now has an improved front sight base out made by Trijicon that should take care of the issue. Recoil springs will need to be changed out also with lots of rounds downrange. The last time we chrono'd Speer 115gr GD +P+ was 1320+/- fps, WIN 9mm Nato 124gr fmj was 1200fps, Speer 124gr GD +P was 1240fps, Fed eagle 115gr fmj was 1050fps. WIN Ranger 127gr +P+ was 1250fps. Most people will never shoot this amount (1400rds +P+) as ammo is pricey. Most will shoot Wally specials and save the "good" stuff for carry or HD. If that's so, then this is academic. That Spear +P+ is getting up into .357 magnum power. That's quite impressive. The M&P line of pistols are tough. I'm curious about the recoil of a +P+. At 1300+ fps, its has got to have ample noticible recoil. My brother has a 9mm and some +P+ ammo. I think I'm going to invite him to my club tomorrow. Recoil is not that pronounced (for me) as I carry .40 and .45acp (185gr +P). Warning label on the Speer ammo states: Maximum average pressure of 40,000 CUP is 22% higher than ANSI/SAAMI standards. Quickest way to bump up bullet performance/stopping power is to increase velocity. The cost is recoil mgmt. Once you master that, not an issue. WIN did that in their Ranger 230gr load when TX DPS had problems with the rounds not going thru cars. REM did that also when the 185gr jhp proved dismal. Their 185gr JHP +P and GS 185gr +P are very effective .45acp rounds. Have your brother load the mag with standard ammo and let him place the +P+ round(s) in any order but the first couple. Let him rack the slide and hand you a SAFE/hot pistol. Let me know what you think then. |
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Suffice it to say that if you can afford enough +P ammo to make your gun shoot loose, you can afford another gun. I've seen ridiculous tests over the years involving
gun longevity. One says their guns are rated for 317,000 rounds, one says their guns are rated for over 1,000,000, yadda, yadda. If you can afford to shoot that much, you can afford to get another gun of the same type and make of the gun you are replacing. I really don't think there is ANY first quality manufacturer out there that rates guns for +P+, but you can bet your bottom dollar that they do rate them for +P. So are guns rated for +P? It depends on the manufacturer. Taurus, High Point, and their ilk probably aren't. Most quality manufacturers (i.e. Glock, SiG, H&K, S&W, Kahr) guns are rated for +P. None of them are rated for +P+, but they will shoot a large quantity them without catastrophic failure. |