[ARCHIVED THREAD] - carry caliber (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 11/18/2010 7:49:17 AM EDT
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so im deciding on a new carry weapon:
my other post and as the research continues im faced with the choice of caliber. edit: just ran across this post: the 40 is loosing.... originally i thought i wanted a 45, since my ancient 1911 9mm is hollowpoint challenged (some of the time), and since i do spend some time in bear country (yet to see one!), i thought i should have the biggest caliber (10mm is out, too hard to find and $$$ from what i hear) but here is the thinking many of you have relayed to me: for hiking duty, i need a dedicated 357 or 44 mag revolver. well, thats not going to happen as i am only "approved" for one new handgun. so as i sit here and digest all my fondling of handguns at the stores, the input you fine folks have put in on my other post, and the fact that im in two-legged bear country more often than 4, i wonder do i really need a 45. the 9 has come a long way for PD. since i own a 9 and having a new gun in the same caliber would certainly make purchasing easy, i thought i should stick with that frame. and they typically hold more. not that ill need 19 rounds in a self defense situation!! or the 40, which many say is a good compromise, relatively inexpensve to feed and readily available or back to the 45, since bigger is better??? is it??? i still have my heart set on the striker fired, polymer units and am leaning toward the M&P line up. tanks in advance, and happy turkey day to you mikey yes ive read this the ammo oracle but i basically am looking for "live" input here, so dont blast me! 
i also dont see Hornady's critical defense round listed there, (not sure how old the oracle is), but this is the one round my old StarBM seems to digest fairly well, and i believe it is a good PD round from what ive read here and there. |
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i also dont see Hornady's critical defense round listed there, (not sure how old the oracle is), but this is the one round my old StarBM seems to digest fairly well, and i believe it is a good PD round from what ive read here and there.
No doubt you've been listening to the gun magazines that also cater to advertizers. Some people will try to sell you bull crap and tell you it's french perfume, as is the case here. I found it amazing that in one magazine there was an article on Hornady Critical Defense on one page and an ad for it on the next page. I didn't know where the article began or the ad stopped. Nor will you ever see Hornady Critical Defense in the Ammo Oracle except for them to ridicule it. These rounds are classic UNDERPERFORMERS! With things like 10 whole inches of penetration into ballistic gel (maximum) these are the kind of round you want to use in a less then lethal encounter. Oh sure, they can be lethal. If they are fired into someone who has their arms at their side (hardly a threat) or shot into the back (good luck explaining THAT in court) they could prove to be quite lethal. Because they have a whole 10 inches of penetration at most, you really have to worry about things getting in the way like arms, legs, walls, etc. They say that clothing doesn't slow them down because ot the plugged hollowpoint, but who cares if it won't penetrate the required 12" minimum of balistic gel? As for the type of weapon you want to get. Go to a gun store that carries most major brands. Pick out all of the guns in a decent caliber (i.e. .38, .357, 9mm, .40, .45) and try each one. Hold it in your hands and see if it point naturally. Check out things like the trigger pull, safety (if any), stiffness, and sights. Then ask to shoot the gun or a sample (if they don't have a range, don't be surprised if they won't let you actually shoot it). Pick the one you like and live happily ever after. I did this the other week and came home with a Kahr K40. It is now my #1 carry gun. 
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9mm Fed 147 gr JHP HST (P9HST2) from G17:
_______________Velocity___Penetration__Recovered Diameter__Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin_____1037fps______11.9"__________0.64"_____________147.8gr 4-layer denim_____1049fps_____14.7"__________0.54"_____________147.5gr Auto windshield___1042fps_____13.4"___________0.53"_____________140.4gr .40 S&W Fed 180 gr JHP HST (P40HST1) from S&W 4006 _______________Velocity___Penetration__Recovered Diameter___Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin______960fps_____12.6"____________0.65"_____________181.1gr 4-layer denim_____961fps_____15.6"____________0.62"_____________181.3gr Auto windshield____904fps_____15.2"___________0.47"______________180.4gr .45 ACP Fed 230 gr +P JHP HST (P45HST1) from 1911 ________________Velocity__Penetration__Recovered Diameter___Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin_______926fps____12.6"__________0.74"_______________231.8gr 4-layer denim______915fps____15.4"__________0.67"_______________231.1gr Auto windshield____918fps_____19.7__________"0.54"_______________228.6gr The 45 makes a 1/10 inch bigger diameter hole than the 9mm. Don't think that will matter all that much relative to where you hit them. Appears these are all just fine and you should pick a reliable platform you like. Data from the Ammo Sticky. |
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It sounds like you're looking for one handgun that will do double duty. It will provide you daily Concealed Carry for self defense against two legged predators as well as occasionally provide protection for larger 4 legged predators. The M&P .45 will give you both. In standard configuration it provides you with a more than adequate self defense cartridge for the two legged pests. While with a couple minutes time and swapping out a few parts it will give you .44mag performance for use against those four legged critters. M&P .460 rowland conversion. $349  |
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I went from 9mm to .40 to .357 sig to now .45 big hole means fast loss of blood and death This is very debatable. Keep in mind that you are really talking about increments so small that they make very little clinical difference. While it is absolutely true that a .45 cal projectile will leave a "bigger hole" than a 9mm one, it is the fact that you have a freakin' hole in your lung to begin with that will kill you. I personally carry and shoot 9mm mostly because in my 19 I can carry 15+1 rounds of ammunition. I greatly prefer the doubled magazine capacity to the increased projectile size, as shot placement is the most important deciding factor in bullet wound lethality and I would much rather have a second (And third, and fifteenth) chance to put another round on target in the same mag than not. that said I own a .45 cal 1911 that I carry now and then because, well, it's badass. |
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Pick the handgun that fits you comfortably, that you'll enjoy shooting a lot. Then pick the caliber that is most reliable in that handgun. 9mm, .40, and .45 with modern bullet designs are all capable of stopping 2 leg bears, 4 leg bears not so much .
Pretty much that. Your comfort with the gun and your ability to shoot it well is more important than the chambering, assuming that chambering is 9mm or better. |
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Take a look at this, FWIW. http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo220/cashbailey_photos/9mmvs40vs45ri8.gif The key is to get as many accurate hits on target as fast as possible, until the threat goes down. Good luck with your choice OP. I concur! Shot Placement > Caliber Shoot the round your the most accurate with in a pistol you will CARRY! (Not leave it behindcuz it's too heavy). Only you can determine how much "insurance" you need. |
Since you are used to a 1911 and want a .357 than Coonan Arms is bringing back out the Coonan auto pistol in .357. I used to have two awhile back and used to open carry in Kentucy back in the 90s with them. 100% realible and would also feed empty .38 cases.
http://www.coonaninc.com/products.php/pistol/cPath,5/osCsid,6552ac5abf96a51bb9aec48dbdc7ec8a CD |
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9mm would probably do better against a bear than .45 why's that? Because 9mm has a higher sectional density in 147gr, I believe. But I don't think that would make it more effective than a .45 against large animals. Both would be horrible choices. For SD, I prefer 9mm. I shoot it a lot faster than .40 or .45. Plus higher capacity. |
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9mm would probably do better against a bear than .45 why's that? Because 9mm has a higher sectional density in 147gr, I believe. But I don't think that would make it more effective than a .45 against large animals. Both would be horrible choices. For SD, I prefer 9mm. I shoot it a lot faster than .40 or .45. Plus higher capacity. For a bear you need penetration to get through the thick hide and heavy skull to get to something that will stop the bear in a hurry. 9mm tends to penetrate better than 45 all else being equal. I certainly DO NOT want to shoot a bear with either round. But if I had to I would take the one that had more penetration. |
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The caliber debate comes down to this:
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Take a look at this, FWIW. http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo220/cashbailey_photos/9mmvs40vs45ri8.gif The key is to get as many accurate hits on target as fast as possible, until the threat goes down. Good luck with your choice OP. And this: Quoted:
9mm Fed 147 gr JHP HST (P9HST2) from G17: _______________Velocity___Penetration__Recovered Diameter__Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin_____1037fps______11.9"__________0.64"_____________147.8gr 4-layer denim_____1049fps_____14.7"__________0.54"_____________147.5gr Auto windshield___1042fps_____13.4"___________0.53"_____________140.4gr .40 S&W Fed 180 gr JHP HST (P40HST1) from S&W 4006 _______________Velocity___Penetration__Recovered Diameter___Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin______960fps_____12.6"____________0.65"_____________181.1gr 4-layer denim_____961fps_____15.6"____________0.62"_____________181.3gr Auto windshield____904fps_____15.2"___________0.47"______________180.4gr .45 ACP Fed 230 gr +P JHP HST (P45HST1) from 1911 ________________Velocity__Penetration__Recovered Diameter___Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin_______926fps____12.6"__________0.74"_______________231.8gr 4-layer denim______915fps____15.4"__________0.67"_______________231.1gr Auto windshield____918fps_____19.7__________"0.54"_______________228.6gr The 45 makes a 1/10 inch bigger diameter hole than the 9mm. Don't think that will matter all that much relative to where you hit them. Appears these are all just fine and you should pick a reliable platform you like. Data from the Ammo Sticky. Anyone who has to carry a .45 cause it "makes bigger holes" or because "it has more knock down power!!!" simply doesn't know what they are talking about with regards to ballistics. Now, with regards to penetrating through barriers/glass etc. that may be a different story. But during a typical self defense encounter (meaning person to person) 9mm/.40/.45 perform nearly identically. Except, of course, 9mm will have less recoil and more rounds in the same magazine. |
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The caliber debate comes down to this: Quoted:
Take a look at this, FWIW. http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo220/cashbailey_photos/9mmvs40vs45ri8.gif The key is to get as many accurate hits on target as fast as possible, until the threat goes down. Good luck with your choice OP. And this: Quoted:
9mm Fed 147 gr JHP HST (P9HST2) from G17: _______________Velocity___Penetration__Recovered Diameter__Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin_____1037fps______11.9"__________0.64"_____________147.8gr 4-layer denim_____1049fps_____14.7"__________0.54"_____________147.5gr Auto windshield___1042fps_____13.4"___________0.53"_____________140.4gr .40 S&W Fed 180 gr JHP HST (P40HST1) from S&W 4006 _______________Velocity___Penetration__Recovered Diameter___Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin______960fps_____12.6"____________0.65"_____________181.1gr 4-layer denim_____961fps_____15.6"____________0.62"_____________181.3gr Auto windshield____904fps_____15.2"___________0.47"______________180.4gr .45 ACP Fed 230 gr +P JHP HST (P45HST1) from 1911 ________________Velocity__Penetration__Recovered Diameter___Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin_______926fps____12.6"__________0.74"_______________231.8gr 4-layer denim______915fps____15.4"__________0.67"_______________231.1gr Auto windshield____918fps_____19.7__________"0.54"_______________228.6gr The 45 makes a 1/10 inch bigger diameter hole than the 9mm. Don't think that will matter all that much relative to where you hit them. Appears these are all just fine and you should pick a reliable platform you like. Data from the Ammo Sticky. Anyone who has to carry a .45 cause it "makes bigger holes" or because "it has more knock down power!!!" simply doesn't know what they are talking about with regards to ballistics. Now, with regards to penetrating through barriers/glass etc. that may be a different story. But during a typical self defense encounter (meaning person to person) 9mm/.40/.45 perform nearly identically. Except, of course, 9mm will have less recoil and more rounds in the same magazine. +1 I went 9mm when deciding which M&P I wanted to get. 17+1 in 9mm and it's cheaper to shoot. I don't reload yet. If I get another gun for carry I'll probably try .40 just cause but, I also carry a .380 sometimes and don't think it would fail at doing it's job either. |
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If you want a polymer 9mm pick your flavor and go,
Glock - got a few, no issues, work every time M&P - got a few, no issues, work every time, like the grip angle better than the Glock Taurus - had one and sold it XD - never had one All things being equal I would go for a Hi Power. Slimmer slide so fits IWB much more comfortably than the polymers. 13+1 capacity and the same basic controls as you 9mm 1911. Best of all it is the quickest point pistol I have ever owned. Bullet diameter is useless without shot placement. I have seen more people killed with a .22 than a .45. I round through the heart beats 18 through the shoulder every time. None of these are going to due double duty as a bear gun. Need to convince the better half it is better to spend the money now and be prepared than save up for it and need the pistol the day before you pick it up from the gun shop. |
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Take a look at this, FWIW. http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo220/cashbailey_photos/9mmvs40vs45ri8.gif The key is to get as many accurate hits on target as fast as possible, until the threat goes down. Good luck with your choice OP. Yep. Assuming your chosen caliber/load combo penetrates 12" in ballistic gel and expands consistently, it's not gonna make much of a difference. I went with 9mm because I could shoot it more for the same price, which goes back to that whole shot placement/speed thing. |
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The caliber debate comes down to this: Quoted:
Take a look at this, FWIW. http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo220/cashbailey_photos/9mmvs40vs45ri8.gif The key is to get as many accurate hits on target as fast as possible, until the threat goes down. Good luck with your choice OP. And this: Quoted:
9mm Fed 147 gr JHP HST (P9HST2) from G17: _______________Velocity___Penetration__Recovered Diameter__Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin_____1037fps______11.9"__________0.64"_____________147.8gr 4-layer denim_____1049fps_____14.7"__________0.54"_____________147.5gr Auto windshield___1042fps_____13.4"___________0.53"_____________140.4gr .40 S&W Fed 180 gr JHP HST (P40HST1) from S&W 4006 _______________Velocity___Penetration__Recovered Diameter___Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin______960fps_____12.6"____________0.65"_____________181.1gr 4-layer denim_____961fps_____15.6"____________0.62"_____________181.3gr Auto windshield____904fps_____15.2"___________0.47"______________180.4gr .45 ACP Fed 230 gr +P JHP HST (P45HST1) from 1911 ________________Velocity__Penetration__Recovered Diameter___Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin_______926fps____12.6"__________0.74"_______________231.8gr 4-layer denim______915fps____15.4"__________0.67"_______________231.1gr Auto windshield____918fps_____19.7__________"0.54"_______________228.6gr The 45 makes a 1/10 inch bigger diameter hole than the 9mm. Don't think that will matter all that much relative to where you hit them. Appears these are all just fine and you should pick a reliable platform you like. Data from the Ammo Sticky. Anyone who has to carry a .45 cause it "makes bigger holes" or because "it has more knock down power!!!" simply doesn't know what they are talking about with regards to ballistics. Now, with regards to penetrating through barriers/glass etc. that may be a different story. But during a typical self defense encounter (meaning person to person) 9mm/.40/.45 perform nearly identically. Except, of course, 9mm will have less recoil and more rounds in the same magazine. Mostly true. Lighter bullets have a greater chance of deflecting off hard barriers, such as bone for instance. Heavier bullets are more likely to keep plowing straight along. 45 has an advantage here in that it's got the best chance of the "big three" to plow through any hard barriers between it and the vitals. This is not to say that 9mm always deflects off of bone or that 45 never does. Just pointing out a trend. ETA: I would also point out that the 45 made the biggest holes. Bigger holes may not matter....or they may, depending on where the shot lands. I guess it boils down to personal preference. If you feel you can place the shots well, 45 might work somewhat better. If you feel you are best served by having as many shots available as possible to make as many as holes as possible, roll with 9mm. Either one really ought to work well enough. |
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9mm has 79 percent of the diameter of a .45.
area in mm: 9mm 4.5 squared = 20.5 20.5 X 3.14= 63.585 square mm .45 (11.43mm) 5.72 squared=32.72 32.72 X 3.14= 102.74mm So a 9mm round has a cross sectional AREA of just 62 percent of a .45. Multiply that difference by 12 inches of penetration, and that is a very substantial difference. If you are counting on expansion, you must compare the best of each round. The percentages won't change much. Please check my math. . . . . . Shot placement still rules, but I think it's a mistake to say all the common defensive calibers are the same. |
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9mm has 79 percent of the diameter of a .45. area in mm: 9mm 4.5 squared = 20.5 20.5 X 3.14= 63.585 square mm .45 (11.43mm) 5.72 squared=32.72 32.72 X 3.14= 102.74mm So a 9mm round has a cross sectional AREA of just 62 percent of a .45. Multiply that difference by 12 inches of penetration, and that is a very substantial difference. If you are counting on expansion, you must compare the best of each round. The percentages won't change much. Please check my math. . . . . . Shot placement still rules, but I think it's a mistake to say all the common defensive calibers are the same. Fuck yes. Something didnt feel right about my interpretation of the gelatin tests and this sums it up. Didnt think to carry out the difference in size across the wound pattern. I just got hit with some knowledge. Just crunched some numbers right quick, if my calculations are correct, the 9mm creates 70% of the wound channel size that the .45 does. However, this is assuming 100% expansion every time. If neither caliber expands, i think it unanimous that the .45 wins out. Another thing rarely considered is the perimeter of the "star" that most HPs form into now days. The .45 will have a significantly larger perimeter, resulting in more "cutting area" aka more damage. All things considered, IMO, the 9mm carries ~55-65% of the punch that the .45 offers. The 9mm has 86% of the diameter of the .45, but causes significantly less damage when comparing the ultimate wound result. |
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9mm has 79 percent of the diameter of a .45. area in mm: 9mm 4.5 squared = 20.5 20.5 X 3.14= 63.585 square mm .45 (11.43mm) 5.72 squared=32.72 32.72 X 3.14= 102.74mm So a 9mm round has a cross sectional AREA of just 62 percent of a .45. Multiply that difference by 12 inches of penetration, and that is a very substantial difference. If you are counting on expansion, you must compare the best of each round. The percentages won't change much. Please check my math. . . . . . Shot placement still rules, but I think it's a mistake to say all the common defensive calibers are the same. Cross sectional area? Come on, let's be serious. Find me any ballistic research whatsoever that supports what you are saying. Again, the expansion difference between .45 and 9mm is 1 tenth of one inch. That's it. Today's ballistic research has shown over and over that reliable expansion is the only thing that matters in pistol calibers since they do not fragment. .64 vs .74 is an insignificant difference, whereas lower recoil (ideally making shot placement more accurate) and more rounds in the mag can be a significant difference in a gunfight, especially if you consider more than one attacker - I'll take 15 rounds in my 9mm vs 8 rounds in a 1911 any day of the week. The simple fact is those who feel they must have a .45 for self defense have a very hard time admitting it is pretty much the same as a 9mm after the bullet impacts and expands. Same with those who own .40s. There is definitely a case to be made with regards to penetration through glass or other barriers for .40 or .357SIG, which is why the FBI and many other organizations choose to use calibers other than 9mm, but for those of us who are probably not going to be shooting at a suspect through a windshield of a speeding vehicle... Those who choose .357sig or 10mm are even worse off, as expansion is not improved at all with these super-fast rounds. There is no difference between .40 and 10mm with regards to two legged creatures. 10mm will penetrate deeper in four legged ones, but for humans it doesn't make a difference. Same with comparing 9mm to .357SIG. Bullet size is identical, the bullet just travels faster for no apparent improvement in ballistics in a .357SIG. But they sure are louder and have a lot more muzzle flash! And recoil... Quoted:
I carry a 10mm or a .45... The only time i carry something smaller (subcompact 9mm) is if it's blazing hot and i'm in something very light... I like big, bleedy holes... It is your choice to carry whatever you wish, but blazing hot 9mm is not going to help anything. 147gr performs better or the same as any of the +p or +p+ 9mm loads in ballistics testing, but with much less recoil and muzzle flash. Again, people need to read the ballistic research before they make comments like this. |
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Here is the Pistol ammunition research roundup over at the arfcom ammunition forum. Read this before responding to my posts, please.
"Properly designed hollow-point ammunition - regardless of caliber - all perform very close to each other when you take expanded diameter and penetration depth into account." "All you "+P junkies" - note how little difference there is between the high-velocity .357SIG and other "slow-poke" rounds. The temporary cavity size is also virtually identical." . |
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Quoted: Quoted: I carry a 10mm or a .45... The only time i carry something smaller (subcompact 9mm) is if it's blazing hot and i'm in something very light... I like big, bleedy holes... It is your choice to carry whatever you wish, but blazing hot 9mm is not going to help anything. 147gr performs better or the same as any of the +p or +p+ 9mm loads in ballistics testing, but with much less recoil and muzzle flash. Again, people need to read the ballistic research before they make comments like this. Think you misread that. I meant if it's blazing hot outside, and i'm not wearing enough clothes to hide anything bigger... My understanding of ballistics is better than your reading comprehension, it would seem... |
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Wow, Phil, who's touchy in this discussion? Someone's blazing hot under his collar.
I just laid out the actual numbers. The difference isn't just a tenth of an inch between a 9mm and a .45; it's a tenth of an inch SQUARED times 3.1415927 times 12 inches. The amount of material directly impacted with a .45 is nearly the same as a 9mm PLUS a couple of .22s thrown in for good measure. Sometimes it will matter, sometimes it won't. There's a subtle difference between saying all the standard calibers perform ADEQUATELY and all calibers perform THE SAME. If the size of the hole didn't matter, why would companies spend millions trying to get their bullets to expand? Then look at DocGR's chart of HSTs. Compare the 9mm to the .45. The difference there looks big enough to get my attention. If you start throwing capacity into the argument, you are changing the equation. But then I'll have to argue that I shoot my 1911 better than any plastic I've ever held. Someone once said "You can't miss fast enough to win." The numbers, however, don't lie. As I said, shot placement rules. After that, do what you want. I have 9s and .45s. If I have a choice, when my dog barks, I'm grabbing my .45. good luck with your choice. |
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Valid statement of opinion:
"I would rather have a pistol that has the maximum capacity of adequate cartridges." INVALID statement of fact: "All of the standard/common defensive/duty calibers from 9mm to .45acp perform the same." You can argue that the differences don't matter, but that's tough to do in a market that emphasizes expansion. A 230gr bullet cutting a .85in hole through 12 inches of flesh and bone is simply not the same as a 124gr bullet cutting a .67in hole. The lighter bullet, apart from cutting a smaller hole, is much more likely to be diverted when striking an ulna, for example. And ulnas, along with radii, tend to be between the muzzle of your gun and the vital organs of your attacker at the moment you pull the trigger. And if one bullet destroys 30 percent more of the flesh and vital organs it encounters than does another bullet, how is that not a difference? Will there be shootings where caliber doesn't matter? OF COURSE. But if you want to play those odds, why are you carrying a gun? Odds are you'll never need it anyway. |
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Wow, Phil, who's touchy in this discussion? Someone's blazing hot under his collar. I just laid out the actual numbers. The difference isn't just a tenth of an inch between a 9mm and a .45; it's a tenth of an inch SQUARED times 3.1415927 times 12 inches. The amount of material directly impacted with a .45 is nearly the same as a 9mm PLUS a couple of .22s thrown in for good measure. Sometimes it will matter, sometimes it won't. There's a subtle difference between saying all the standard calibers perform ADEQUATELY and all calibers perform THE SAME. If the size of the hole didn't matter, why would companies spend millions trying to get their bullets to expand? Then look at DocGR's chart of HSTs. Compare the 9mm to the .45. The difference there looks big enough to get my attention. If you start throwing capacity into the argument, you are changing the equation. But then I'll have to argue that I shoot my 1911 better than any plastic I've ever held. Someone once said "You can't miss fast enough to win." The numbers, however, don't lie. As I said, shot placement rules. After that, do what you want. I have 9s and .45s. If I have a choice, when my dog barks, I'm grabbing my .45. good luck with your choice. Last time I checked, it was 3.14 x radius(2). So its not 0.10inch, its 0.05 inches (squared)..... |
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9mm would probably do better against a bear than .45 why's that? Because 9mm has a higher sectional density in 147gr, I believe. But I don't think that would make it more effective than a .45 against large animals. Both would be horrible choices. For SD, I prefer 9mm. I shoot it a lot faster than .40 or .45. Plus higher capacity. For a bear you need penetration to get through the thick hide and heavy skull to get to something that will stop the bear in a hurry. 9mm tends to penetrate better than 45 all else being equal. I certainly DO NOT want to shoot a bear with either round. But if I had to I would take the one that had more penetration. At typical "defense" distances, a 9mm does not penetrate soft targets better than a .45 Additionally, the .45 projectile carries more momentum and is better able to break bones that may obstuct the bullet's path. |
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Wow, Phil, who's touchy in this discussion? Someone's blazing hot under his collar. I just laid out the actual numbers. The difference isn't just a tenth of an inch between a 9mm and a .45; it's a tenth of an inch SQUARED times 3.1415927 times 12 inches. The amount of material directly impacted with a .45 is nearly the same as a 9mm PLUS a couple of .22s thrown in for good measure. Sometimes it will matter, sometimes it won't. There's a subtle difference between saying all the standard calibers perform ADEQUATELY and all calibers perform THE SAME. If the size of the hole didn't matter, why would companies spend millions trying to get their bullets to expand? Then look at DocGR's chart of HSTs. Compare the 9mm to the .45. The difference there looks big enough to get my attention. If you start throwing capacity into the argument, you are changing the equation. But then I'll have to argue that I shoot my 1911 better than any plastic I've ever held. Someone once said "You can't miss fast enough to win." The numbers, however, don't lie. As I said, shot placement rules. After that, do what you want. I have 9s and .45s. If I have a choice, when my dog barks, I'm grabbing my .45. good luck with your choice. Last time I checked, it was 3.14 x radius(2). So its not 0.10inch, its 0.05 inches (squared)..... Got me on that! Check the detailed math in my first post–– those calculations are all correct. |
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The caliber debate comes down to this: Quoted:
Take a look at this, FWIW. http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo220/cashbailey_photos/9mmvs40vs45ri8.gif The key is to get as many accurate hits on target as fast as possible, until the threat goes down. Good luck with your choice OP. And this: Quoted:
9mm Fed 147 gr JHP HST (P9HST2) from G17: _______________Velocity___Penetration__Recovered Diameter__Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin_____1037fps______11.9"__________0.64"_____________147.8gr 4-layer denim_____1049fps_____14.7"__________0.54"_____________147.5gr Auto windshield___1042fps_____13.4"___________0.53"_____________140.4gr .40 S&W Fed 180 gr JHP HST (P40HST1) from S&W 4006 _______________Velocity___Penetration__Recovered Diameter___Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin______960fps_____12.6"____________0.65"_____________181.1gr 4-layer denim_____961fps_____15.6"____________0.62"_____________181.3gr Auto windshield____904fps_____15.2"___________0.47"______________180.4gr .45 ACP Fed 230 gr +P JHP HST (P45HST1) from 1911 ________________Velocity__Penetration__Recovered Diameter___Recovered Weight Bare Gelatin_______926fps____12.6"__________0.74"_______________231.8gr 4-layer denim______915fps____15.4"__________0.67"_______________231.1gr Auto windshield____918fps_____19.7__________"0.54"_______________228.6gr The 45 makes a 1/10 inch bigger diameter hole than the 9mm. Don't think that will matter all that much relative to where you hit them. Appears these are all just fine and you should pick a reliable platform you like. Data from the Ammo Sticky. Anyone who has to carry a .45 cause it "makes bigger holes" or because "it has more knock down power!!!" simply doesn't know what they are talking about with regards to ballistics. Now, with regards to penetrating through barriers/glass etc. that may be a different story. But during a typical self defense encounter (meaning person to person) 9mm/.40/.45 perform nearly identically. Except, of course, 9mm will have less recoil and more rounds in the same magazine. You are mistaken. I have seen the real thing...bullets recovered from human bodies, during autopsies. Remember, the 9 is basically a 38 special +P. Gelatin is a measuring substance, you won't find any gelatin monsters out there, only humans which are more complex in make up. The more tissue you damage, the sooner you take the fight out of the bad guy. |
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awesome discussion!
this is what i was looking for. a little heated here and there, but hey, most of you are talking pretty diplomatically. and that is what makes a good thread. now, for me, after much more research, and reading on my posts, i think, THINK, that ill refrain from trying to do double duty for 2 and 4 legged threats. the idea of a separate 357 or 44 for the woods makes sense. and since im in the streets more than the woods, ill work on the 2 legged threat assumption. not that there havent been bears in OUR city! ! so, caliber.... the 9 definitely has more capacity, but not by much, as the XD holds 13 i believe (and a few others do as well) so, is 3 more 9's any good? dunno, what i do know is that my current 9 is easy as heck to shoot, and i like the idea that the wife can pick it up and shoot as well. only problem is that its on safe and i dont want her to have to think about the safety, just pick up and shoot. which led me to believe i wanted a striker fired weapon with their fourteen milliion no think safeties. still need to head out to the range and shoot some more, and im still unsure as to 9 or 45 (40 is out). i guess i DO think thery'll be that day when i DO have to shoot thru a windshield or something besides a jean jacket, but that's just my tendency to cover all bases. will a 9 do it? if the first 1 or 2 rounds take out the windshield, then you have upteen more to hit the target inside right? why rely on the 1st 45 to do the windshield AND the target? anyway.....we could go on and on with this scenario, never mind... keep em coming, i like your input, and appreciate it all mikey |
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Here's an interesting after-action report involving a Glock 21 and .45 cal Speer Gold Dots.
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific It has taught me not to trust any pistol I carry too heavily and given me a new appreciation for mag capacity. I carry a 9mm but own more .45s than 9s. I very much do believe that .45 hits "harder" than 9mm (somebody mentioned momentum - the formula for such is p=mv, giving .45 a momentum of 20,700 grains per feet per second and 9mm 14900 grains per feet per second) though I am not convinced that the pure newtonian mechanics necessarily translate totally relevantly into "stopping power." I am a biologist primarily so I tend to focus on the effects that bullets have once they enter the body and not too much before. While I have not run any experiments I can tell you that pretty much any of your soft squishy parts will suffer immensely if they meet a 9mm or a .45 JHP. Their expansion, regardless of caliber, is what truly leaves lethal wounds in soft targets - the rapid deceleration onset by the expanded bullet will alter their path such that it will have the opportunity to shred more tissue than ball. Even that said, however, it isnt the bullet that kills you, its the hole! shot placement will trump anything. Penetration is important because you need to be sure it can reliably reach the viscera and the organs of the thoracic cavity (believe me, 9mm and up definitely will). After that it is a roll of the dice as to what happens and how it affects the target in question. I carry 9mm because it gives me 15+1 chances to roll those dice; sleep with a .45 by my bedside because it gives me a big old honkin pair of dice to roll and nearly the same capacity. Think it will matter when its go time? probably not, but that's how I've done the math - all of y'all are free to do the same for yourselves. |
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Handguns in general are poor weapons for killing. They are a compromise.
Debating the minutiae of different service calibers does not change the fact that people get shot with 9, .357 sig, .40, .45 etc and don't die [or don't die immediately]...and in some cases, kill whoever put holes in 'em. Training and shot placement can alleviate some of the shortcomings of handguns, but there are still many factors involved that cannot be overcome...physiology, mental state of the attacker, etc. Choose a weapon with ergonomics that suit you, in whatever caliber you are comfortable with. Then, shoot the everloving piss out of it, and take some classes. Choose quality defensive ammunition. i have owned and carried dozens of handguns from all of the popular makers, and I loved them all... because I like guns. However, after training and looking hard at my requirements, along with a great deal of trial and error, I settled on Glocks in 9mm. They work good for me and my wife, are stupid simple to operate and maintain, and I can manipulate them under stress well. YMMV. HTH, and happy Thanksgiving. |
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Quoted:
Take a look at this, FWIW. http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo220/cashbailey_photos/9mmvs40vs45ri8.gif The key is to get as many accurate hits on target as fast as possible, until the threat goes down. Good luck with your choice OP. Yeah never got the debate. get some training. Get a drive fire and live fire regime. Stick to it. Get more training. Put the 22lr, bb, 9mm, 45acp, 45GAP, pulse phase plasma rifle burst into the traget. |
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Quoted:
if the first 1 or 2 rounds take out the windshield, then you have upteen more to hit the target inside right? why rely on the 1st 45 to do the windshield AND the target? Windshields are LAMINATED glass, so you are not going to "take out" a windshield as a whole piece. The rounds will just punch holes in the windshield, while the windshield stays together. Back on topic, I think the ability to put more rounds on target, faster, is the 9mm's main selling point. If I only have one bullet, I would rather it was a .45 (hell, make it a .44 Mag). Since I am not limited to one, however, I'll take the greater firepower of the 9. But this is definitely a personal choice, and I don't think there is a "right" answer to this topic. Which is why I think caliber wars are largely a waste of time. |
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I don't know which caliber is the best, but I'd recommend that you choose a pistol and service caliber that you can shoot and conceal well and carry bona fide LEO ammunition in it.
IMO capacity carries great weight in my decision; I'm currently carrying an M&P .40 full size as my everyday handgun and occasionally an M&P 9c when I need a pistol with shorter grips for concealment in tighter clothing. I'm adequately armed with either pistol because they are absolutely reliable and I shoot them often and therefore, well. Good luck in you search for the proper pistol for yourself. |
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Quoted:
Take a look at this, FWIW. http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo220/cashbailey_photos/9mmvs40vs45ri8.gif The key is to get as many accurate hits on target as fast as possible, until the threat goes down. Good luck with your choice OP. That graphic doesn't tell the whole story: Frantal area in square inches: 9mm: 0.099 .40: 0.126 .45: 0.159 Expressed as a percentage of the 9mm: 9mm: 100% .40: 127% .45: 161% Just sayin'... |
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Quoted:
Fred, does this mean that in order to put as much frontal area downrange as 10 rounds of .45, one would need 16 rounds of 9mm? Hmm. Frontal area multiplied by penetration = permanent wound channel volume. Correct? Correct, in other words one 45 causes 1.6 times more damage to the tissue than one 9mm. The 45 also delivers ~1.5 times more energy in 147 vs 230 grain weights, if that matters. |
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IMO surface area is a relatively inconsequential component of a handgun bullet's ability to stop an aggressor. I would be more worried about penetration and its ability to reliably punch through the sternum/ribcage to reach heart/lungs.
In fact truth be told I would probably carry a .40 but I am an awful shot with it, for whatever reason. I have 2 .45s, 1 1911 and 1 glock. I have carried the 1911 in the past but I dont trust it as much as I do my 19. The Glock 21 is brand spankin new will definitely be carried, perhaps next winter, once I have a pair of tritiums for the slide, a good holster and a pistol light for it, and at least 500 trouble-free rounds down the pipe... |