Posted: 3/26/2011 10:31:30 AM EDT
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I got into an arguement about the legality of removing a mag disconnect from a BHP. I say its legit, a friend says no.
Whats the dealio? |
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Quoted:
It's legal as long as there are no state or local laws preventing it. The argument is not legality, though. It is whether a prosecutor can use it to make you look wreckless with firearms. That would be a tough sell. Simple reply to that line of thinking..... "Did the pistol have a magazine inserted?" If the answer is yes, and that is going to be the case almost 100% of the time, then the point is moot because the magazine disconnect's only function is to prevent the trigger from moving when a magazine is absent. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
It's legal as long as there are no state or local laws preventing it. The argument is not legality, though. It is whether a prosecutor can use it to make you look wreckless with firearms. That would be a tough sell. Simple reply to that line of thinking..... "Did the pistol have a magazine inserted?" If the answer is yes, and that is going to be the case almost 100% of the time, then the point is moot because the magazine disconnect's only function is to prevent the trigger from moving when a magazine is absent. I don't have an opinion either way, but Harold Fish never thought carrying 10mm ammo would make a difference either. Court cases are more about emotion than rational thinking sometimes. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's legal as long as there are no state or local laws preventing it. The argument is not legality, though. It is whether a prosecutor can use it to make you look wreckless with firearms. That would be a tough sell. Simple reply to that line of thinking..... "Did the pistol have a magazine inserted?" If the answer is yes, and that is going to be the case almost 100% of the time, then the point is moot because the magazine disconnect's only function is to prevent the trigger from moving when a magazine is absent. I don't have an opinion either way, but Harold Fish never thought carrying 10mm ammo would make a difference either. Court cases are more about emotion than rational thinking sometimes. I know it still cost him a lot of time and money, but On 06/30/2009 Harold Fish's case was reversed and remanded by the Court of Appeals, State of Arizona, Division 1. |
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It's legal as long as there are no state or local laws preventing it. The argument is not legality, though. It is whether a prosecutor can use it to make you look wreckless with firearms. That would be a tough sell. Simple reply to that line of thinking..... "Did the pistol have a magazine inserted?" If the answer is yes, and that is going to be the case almost 100% of the time, then the point is moot because the magazine disconnect's only function is to prevent the trigger from moving when a magazine is absent. I don't have an opinion either way, but Harold Fish never thought carrying 10mm ammo would make a difference either. Court cases are more about emotion than rational thinking sometimes. I know it still cost him a lot of time and money, but On 06/30/2009 Harold Fish's case was reversed and remanded by the Court of Appeals, State of Arizona, Division 1. I know I couldn't afford to be proved right in the end. Like I said, though, I have no opinion either way. I was just pointing out that it is legal, but the argument of prudence is what people get all hung up on. |
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Quoted:
I don't have an opinion either way, but Harold Fish never thought carrying 10mm ammo would make a difference either. Court cases are more about emotion than rational thinking sometimes. It didn't. He got convicted because he fired warning shots at the dogs before firing killing shots at the human. |
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I don't have an opinion either way, but Harold Fish never thought carrying 10mm ammo would make a difference either. Court cases are more about emotion than rational thinking sometimes. It didn't. He got convicted because he fired warning shots at the dogs before firing killing shots at the human. But it was brought out by the prosecution and you can never predict what will affect a jury's perception. It's up to the individual to weigh the risks. The disconnect in my Hi Power doesn't prevent me from shooting the gun well so I'm going to leave it in. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's legal as long as there are no state or local laws preventing it. The argument is not legality, though. It is whether a prosecutor can use it to make you look wreckless with firearms. That would be a tough sell. Simple reply to that line of thinking..... "Did the pistol have a magazine inserted?" If the answer is yes, and that is going to be the case almost 100% of the time, then the point is moot because the magazine disconnect's only function is to prevent the trigger from moving when a magazine is absent. I don't have an opinion either way, but Harold Fish never thought carrying 10mm ammo would make a difference either. Court cases are more about emotion than rational thinking sometimes. I know it still cost him a lot of time and money, but On 06/30/2009 Harold Fish's case was reversed and remanded by the Court of Appeals, State of Arizona, Division 1. I know I couldn't afford to be proved right in the end. Like I said, though, I have no opinion either way. I was just pointing out that it is legal, but the argument of prudence is what people get all hung up on. I won't disagree with that. However I will say that it greatly differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction...how friendly your locality is to self defense. |
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There are two purposes to a magazine disconnect safety.
1. In a struggle the officer or soldier about to lose control of the weapon can drop the mag and render the round in the chamber incapable of bieng fired. As such it prevents people from being shot with their own weapon. 2. It also prevents a moron from improperly clearing the weapon and then shooting himself or someone else by mistake. The scenario goes like this: Rather than dropping the mag and racking the slide to correctly clear the weapon, the moron reverses the order, racks the slide to "clear" the round in the chamber, then drops the mag from the well, not realizing he has already chambered another round. In this case the magazine disconnect safety prevents him from discharging the weapon. Neither one of these really relate to a valid legal issue in a defensive shoot, unless perhaps the perp gets your weapon away from you with the mag removed and then shoots someone else. Or alternatively, if you have an AD while cleaning the weapon in your home and shoot someone and the missing mag safety played a role - your actions just went from merely negligent to reckless intent. Obviously a mag safety is mostly a form of idiot proofing to protect the user from himself or to try to protect bystandaers from an idiot. Of course as noted above, removing it can be construed/twisted in a variety of ways by an overly eager prosecutor. For example, If you did it to improve the trigger pull, then you are going to be portrayed as someone trying to create a "hair trigger" and that conveys a different message in a defensive shoot and implies you were a gun nut out looking for trouble. Personally, if you prefer to not have a mag safety, I'd buy it used and then go with this approach/defense "What magazine safety? The Hi Power is supposed to have a magazine safety? What is a magazine safety?" 
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| Stephen Camp, a very experienced HiPower enthusiast and also an Ex Police officer of many years, has all of his out according to his book. But he also agrees it's a personal call. There are arguments on both sides. I don't think removing it makes the weapon "Illegal". Or the practice of removing it. It isn't much different than modifying any weapon. Which people do all the time. You can get a MSH for your 1911 that eliminates the grip safety. It still has a safety. As does the HiPower. There are other platforms that have no external safeties at all. But, I will also agree that if you ever did use your firearms in Self Defense and a lawyer wanted to make an issue of anything to make you look worse or something, they could TRY to use it against you for sure. They can use a lot of tricks to do such. If you own a bunch of firearms, and that fact was made known, they could use that against you to paint you as an extremist. etc Etc. I think most lawyers will do just about anything to win, regardless of if it's pertinent or not. |
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Quoted:I think most lawyers will do just about anything to win, regardless of if it's pertinent or not. I used to find myself testifying in court about twice a week in a fairly small community where you'd find the same attorneys representing both plantiffs and defendents in both civil and criminal cases. It was not uncommon to have the same attorney try the "I haven't got any other defense" tactic of trying to undermine your testimony by attacking your character on the stand. And in the afternoon that same attorney, on a different case, would be singing your praises and trying to promote you as being smarter than einstein, wiser than Solomon and holier than the Pope. And quite often you'd end up going to lunch in between with the judge and all the attorneys involved as part of the court room work group. You quickly learn to take none of it personally.
Criminal defense attorneys are a strange bunch who: 1. Do not have a committment to "truth" as a tenent in their code of ethics, and 2. Believe in giving their client the best possible defense (even if the scum is guilty) and then trust the system will work and fry the scumbag anyway. Prosecutors have the same code of ethics and the same general approach and if the case goes to trial will use any means, fair or otherwise, to secure a conviction, again trusting the system to work and get any person who happens to be innocaent and refused to plea bargain off. In both cases sometimes the system works and, unfortunately in both cases, sometimes it does not. That said, my magazine safeties are removed as the trigger pull is so much better - and that is important to me as I am first and foremost an avid target shooter who just happens to carry a recreational/target pistol concealed now and then. If I get in a gunfight with a perp, it will be accidental, unavoidable, unintentional, an a completely neccesary yet personally disturbing act neccesary to defend my life, and I will have been forced by circumstance to use the target pistol I had on me at the time. |
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The only mag disconnect that annoys me is the one on the ruger mk3 22/45
Makes it a pain to reassemble. I personally would leave the HP stock. I had not thought of dropping the mag to keep your gun from being used against you, thanks for that tidbit, it is very interesting! |