What we have learned...

Riflegear = Nope.

Have I missed anything?

Believe me I tried! They won't even take a gun out of the case if you're a tourist  but you can drool all you want, and buy lots of neat accessories and apparel items that are hard to find in the states. If you're in Prague, CZ has a sweet store.

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Only read Pg. 1, but my question is, why did OP take delivery of the product at the FFL? That means he agreed that what he got is what he paid for. Crying about missing mags AFTER accepting delivery is not cool, imo. if the dealer threatened the buyer with ATF, then that's uncool also (didn't read pgs. 2-3 so don't know). Just my 2 cents.

If you read the thread you would have an answer.

OP didn't wait a month.  He worked on it for a month and got no satisfaction.  He then decided to do a charge back for 2 mags.

I'm with the OP.  I order something and something is missing, I try to work with the vendor to solve it.  I assume the OP figured that riflegear.com screwed up an would make it right.

OP got riflegeared.  We need a new meme.

You should have this in the OP.  I was with you before but now I'm 100% on board.

Op if you took possession of the gun and didn't verify the mag before you should take the 10% and be done with it.

From the OP's first post.  What he says was listed right on the website for this item ""Factory BLEM ModelBLEM models are determined as blemished units by the manufacturer. They are mechanically sound and carry a full mechanical warranty. BLEM FIREARMS may show signs of being used, handled, fired from factory demonstrations. Condition, contents and/or components are subject to change without notice. For additional inquires regarding BLEM firearms, please contact us."  Did the ad on the website show 3 mags???    It doesn't matter what MY idea of "BLEM" means or yours or some lawyer or some other gun dealer.   Right there in black and white is what was posted when the deal was made.   This is what has to be used for the meaning of "BLEM" in this case.   RIGHT.  


Also, it was a few posts and a few days later before the first mention of "I asked them if anything is missing".  Read the OP.  The million dollar problem was not stated.  Go read it.  Only a few days later.   "After researching if they even came with more than one mag or not".  OPs words not mine.  He didn't even know if it came with 3 or 2 or 1.  

In the OP,  the OP didn't even know it came with more than one mag until he seen the spaces for the missing mags in the box.  "and noticed that there were 2 empty slots where the extra mags should be".
  Brand new, full price firearms should come with all mags, not doubt.  But he didn't buy a brand new firearm.   Springfield sales range packs with lots of mags and they sale cheaper kits with one or two mags only.  Canik does the same.  Not unheard of that a pistol will only come with 1 mag.  And it would be stated up front of course.  Just saying it does happen from the factory.  

IMO.   If the OP was 100% he had asked if anything was missing, he would have said it in the OP point blank...not .  Not 3 or 4 posts later.  I am guessing it was omitted from the OP just like it was omitted during the first phone call.  His exact words in the OP are "spoke to a guy and asked what catch was, what was wrong with it etc"  Why did the OP omit "DOES IT COME WITH ALL 3 MAGS"  Did the pistol come with all the factory paper work?  The fired shell casing?  etc....  Trigger lock?

I don't know who is right or wrong.  Only what is written here.   Some very important things were left out the OP IMO.  I would have included the very important part of the conversation word by word in the OP,  not used "etc..."         The gun shop handled it wrong also, but maybe they see it as they are being shook down for something that is not owed to the OP.   Also, maybe the shop didn't know AMEX had been contacted until a few phone calls later.   I bet they haven't contacted him since.      

Again.  Just my opinion.   Damn shit show is one reason Credit Card companies don't want to deal with firearms.  The whole transfer ownership and ATF shit.  It's not like buying a TV.    

I don't know the OP, I don't know the gun shop.  I just see some missing facts in the OP.   The OP should have had all the important facts in it, not being added to and adjusted as days go by.  Look for the key words and key questions.  Omitted from the first post.  Kindof've added in as he goes.   If He knew it was suppose to have the 3 mags, he never should have took possession of the pistol.  PERIOD.  

-

Another important piece missing out of the OP.

So, why not send the pistol back and only have AMEX dispute the restocking fee???   Lot less money to be arguing about.  RIGHT?   But then the OP wouldn't have the pistol either.

Just saying.     Argue over a little restocking fee, or argue over 1500.00.   Lot easier to argue while you holding all the goods.  

Again, not taking sides.  Just like a good debate.

Did you see the part about restocking fees?

The onus is wholly on the SELLER.  The expectation for a blemished sale item is you get everything that comes with it as new.

wow I am in awwww they outed them self, and 2x down on a bad situation. Just dam.... I had to read this thread. I bought a blem from a vendor and at my ffl went to check it, and me and the dealer started to laugh, when I said "that's there idea of good condition with a slight blemish".... it was missing the grips, the sights, it didn't have a hammer or a trigger and god knows what other internals where gone, looked like it had done miles tied on the end of a rope behind a vehicle. On and no mag... but lol when it doesn't have a hammer, trigger, sights, or grips, the missing mag seems like a small thing ;). On there site it said "good condition, slight blemish". lol I just had to see if it was the same vendor. It wasn't. My FFL laughed and sent it back, the seller claimed they didn't get it back, my ffl gave me the tracking showing they did.... I gave that to them and threatened a charge back and they "found it". And it was relisted on there site, the same way it was shown when I bought it "good condition, slight blemish". I will NOT name names. Just there's some shady FFL's out there. INSPECT the hell out of anything BEFORE the transfer.

OP was only disputing the cost of the 2 mags.  AMEX froze the whole deal.

"contents and/or components are subject to change without notice."

Seems the contents were changed without notice to me.  Is that what you agreed to, but failed to verify prior to purchase?

No doubt, I bought a Beretta 92FS police/security trade-in.  Came with original box, spare mags, chamber lock, original paperwork/manual, and even the factory spent casing, everything.

No excuse not to have the spare mags it came with as a "blem"

Its like buying a blem and having the entire fire control group missing

If everything you said is true, you should 100% out them

@ibuyre2

The fact that it says to contact riflegear and then when OP contacted riflegear they omitted that information tells me everything I need to know.  

Also, fuck any company that wants to threaten LE/ATF over a credit card dispute.

Hats off to AMEX too...  I typically use my Mastercard after VISA has fucked me over a previous dispute, but also have an AMEX and will definitely be using that card for my online purchases now

Not going to name them. It's a BIG name and they sell tons of guns, you probably have some of there stuff in your safe. It was a mil/police surplus. When they "found it" they had no problem giving me a refund and told me they only inspect a handful of guns out of the lot and use the same description for the entire lot, and just use the numbers off the boxes and don't even open the boxes. It was the last of the lot, It went out of stock when I ordered, and back in stock when they found it. So who knows, maybe they had some spare parts and put it back together. When I got it, it was a beat up frame and slide in a box, maybe some more parts, but I didn't look it over that close to check, I was to busy laughing as we passed it around the shop, joking "slight blem". The gov is like that sometimes. it's a fame, it's a gun, it's in the lot. They made it right and they are huge.... so one random gun coming back, I could see it getting, "lost" aka in another department, or in mail that wasn't opened yet and logged in yet. BUT.... you inspect the hell out of things BEFORE you sign those papers and do the transfer. It was a big name, and it was a gov surplus, and lol it was dam near a stripped frame, sold as good condition..... So yes, INSPECT, before you sign ANYTHING. No I have not ordered from them since (knowing they don't even open the boxes of most things they ship, or they didn't back then). But it kills me, I have ordered a ton of mill surplus from them over there years and always been good. But that kinda thing has sorta dried up.

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion and I didn't do a good job explaining it as it was typed out fast, but you got a few things wrong.

there was one blem  in stock and their website said to call and ask about it if you were interested in buying it. so I called. Guy says it's complete with minor cosmetic blems. This is the only one they could be talking about, as there is one in stock. I ordered right after hanging up the phone, I've got call logs and time stamps on the receipts to show it. "BuT oUr PolIcY SaYs we CAn ChAnGe iT WiThoUt NoTicE" is not an excuse. If you tell a customer what they can expect and then don't deliver, there is an issue being created there. Their ads for regular and blem guns make no mention of how many mags you get. If they want to describe stuff over the phone, not online, that's their prerogative, but if they are going to choose to do it over the phone, they should make sure they get it right.

im friendly with my local shop, the gun was transferred in minutes and we spent most of the time talking about covid fucking up the fall school schedules, kids missing their friends and not learning anything in zoom classes.  Why would I tear into the Case and doubt what their guy on the phone, when they asked you in the description to call so they can tell you  the details about the gun Youll be buying?

I knew the TSO came with 3 mags. I called CZ to verify that they hadn't changed the package at all. The merchants site doesn't say on the blem or regular models how many mags it comes with, so if they asked "how do you know it's missing mags?" I could say "I talked to the factory to confirm it, since you don't list it or show it in the photos"

Nope. Per their request on the listing I called them to verify condition contents and details before placing my order.. Right after I hung up I ordered it. There was only 1 in stock. For them to say it's complete and then "subject it to change without notice" right after I got off the phone asking about it is totally unethical.

I called them within an hour of the transfer and they said once a gun is transferred there's no returns accepted.

Buds?  Bet its Buds

I'm staying neutral in this

But the above was posted in the items description, did the OP ignore this and hope for the best?

Would i call it a blem? No... Open box/gently used maybe? Are these "Blems" a CZ thing they sell, or just an FFL trying to offload demo guns?

Also from an FFL's standpoint, can you really claim someone stole a gun if you legally & willingly transferred it to them? Maybe claim Fraud... but stolen... no. (Not saying its actually fraud though)

But in just here for the Shitshow

Right above that part it says to call them to find out the details of gun you'll be buying, they don't want to describe them all online since they can be different. I called them to see what was on offer, and ordered as soon as I was off the phone.  At some point you have to guarantee to the buyer what they are getting. I was told On the phone that the specific gun I was calling about, the only one left in stock, was a complete package with a that a minor cosmetic blem and that it would have a full factory mechanical warranty.

Didn't wait a month, I attempted to resolve it with the seller, but I found their offer of resolution unsatisfactory. Their attitude was "we made a mistake and that's too bad, but that's your problem now" and I wasn't ok with that.

The last LEO trade in pistol I bought came with 5 glock mags.

Yeah, I saw that too. But do you seriously think that verbiage of "Condition, contents and/or components are subject to change without notice." will stand up in court?  With such broad language in there, a seller can get away with anything.  Besides, as OP stated, he DID call to verify the "blemish-ness" of the TSO.  OP was not told of missing 2x mags.  Missing accessories that came with the retail package =/= blemished.  Shit, if it is missing anything, list it.  How hard can it be?  Then there is no way OP can dispute the matter.  

I have bought plenty from RifleGear here in CA and my experience has been positive.  But I think their TX store dropped the ball on this one.  They should have either allow return/refund or work out some deal with OP on those two missing magazines.  Heck it is only a bit over $100 retail and I am sure they could have gotten it cheaper as a dealer.  Then they would have retained a possible repeat customer.  But no, they had to threaten him with ATF when it is clearly a civil matter.

I would have waited until everything is said and done before posting anything.  Your fast typing and leaving things out, could come back if this were to go to court?  

I worry too much about such things.   The entire thing sucks for you and the shop IMO.  

I would not have accepted the pistol and sent it back.  If the missing mags mean this much, that's what I would have done, my mistake, the store's mistake...doesn't matter.  The decision to make, was yours at the time of accepting the pistol at your FFL.  The fight would have been over the restocking fee then, and that would have been easier to fight IMO, than this problem.   That's also the reason I have never bought a firearm that had to be shipped either.   I have shitty luck as is.  

Good luck.  I'm out.  

This isn't going to court and the OP never dimed the company out (they did it themselves).  The company has no leg to stand on.  This is all being handled in accordance with the contract the seller signed with the CC merchant.  If the CC company finds in the seller's favor the funds are released and the money is re-deposited into the sellers merchant services account which sweeps back into their checking account at the end of the day.  If the CC company finds in favor of the buyer the money less the cost of the two magazines will be deposited into the sellers account.

The seller can get their money back tomorrow if they called the OP and said: "I will ship you the two magazines on our dime."  Then the buyer can contact the CC company and drop the chargeback.  That way the seller will get their money and they will also avoid their chargeback penalty.  

This is business.

Both at fault.

OP should not have taken transfer without mags.
Company should not have called OP or outed themselves on a public forum.

AMEX doin a good job.

Did you call him up and threaten to bring in BATF? Why would you do that?

Was the gun complete and the blemish as described?
Did you specifically ask how many magazines were included?
Did the seller specifically state how many magazines were included?

OP got flegeared. They kept the R and the I.

Should report them to the ATF and local police for magazine theft. Throw in the state attorney general office for fraudulent business practices.

You accepted the firearm transfer

You shouldn't have signed for it if you weren't happy with it

And you waited a month before the charge back?

Wtf

From what I recall reading, he waited that long due to trying to resolve the matter during that period, and went that route once it was clear they were not going to resolve things to his satisfaction.

This sounds almost exactly like my experience with Avis a few years ago...

Hmm, reminds me of the time I bought a Sig 716 from riflegear in CA (just before sandy hook happened) and it was missing several items that apparently should have come with the rifle. I didn’t know until after the fact, otherwise I would have questioned it before accepting transfer. It made me cautious of future transactions though.

This was posted by shark92651 on Calguns:

Sounds like putting it in writing to protect yourself is a new and novel concept. Others should do this as well

It's funny that he doesn't mention outing himsef on here when I didn't mention who it was, and he doesn't deny that he called me well after the dispute was filed, demanding I drop it or else he was going to call the atf. I'll post the letter I got from Amex when I filed the dispute and I'll post the phone log showing the date and time I was called

No.

It’s like buying a blemish without the mag.

Because he bought a blemish without a mag.

WTF, dude?

So im adding more info and some proof. there been a lot of misperceptions and outright falsehoods. the biggest is that RG claims i waited a month to dispute the charge. This is true, but not the whole truth.

Order was placed july 21

Order wasn't shipped until july 29

order wasn't delivered until july 31

I wasnt able to go pick it up until Aug 5th

Aug 5 - pick up gun, call riflegear for about 20 mins as soon as i get home

Aug 5- Benny from RG tells me that a return is out of the question, since it was transferred. says i can buy the mags from them and they will give me 10% off that purchase, a savings of about 15 dollars total, off another order

Aug 20 - unsatisfied with their proposed resolution, I file dispute.

Aug 21 - Amex accepts my dispute and sends me a letter saying so. Letter is received within a few days of mailing.

Sept 4 - get a call from rifle gear THREATING TO CALL THE ATF AND MY LOCAL LE UNLESS I DROP MY DISPUTE THAT DAY. Additional lies include "you cant chargeback firearms" and "you dont have the right to file a dispute with us". This was well after amex would have mailed them a letter on aug 21 informing them of the dispute. 1 week after they were notified assuming the amex letter took a week to reach them, after they are made well aware of the dispute and the process (and how you aren't supposed to reach out to the buyer, or especially threaten them), they call me. right after they called me, I call amex to tell them what just happened and they are blown away by it. Later, RG posts here on arf, when i didn't even name them in my OP

Oct 22- Amex says will be resolved by then, but I haven't received any communications from them. they should send a letter saying what they decided and why.

some supporting documentation



order




shipping




amex letter, they reversed the whole charge even though i wanted the cost of me having to go buy the missing mags deducted from the overall price. RG told me i was getting a cosmetic blem gun with a factory mechanical warranty but had everything else a regular TSO had at X price. I was ok with that price. I was not ok having to spend more money to make up for their error in describing it on the phone.



dated call log, showing that they called me, and then i called amex right after, google the numbers





my screenshot of their call. You can see its incoming. You can see the time is green by im on the line with amex. i fat fingered it and accidently called them while trying to take a screenshot. that's the 7 second outgoing call

So, heres the question... why the fuck would they call me 2 weeks after i filed a dispute, after they were clearly aware of the dispute, despite that being a gross violation of amex policies and procedures? Not only that, but the dispute is still under investigation. Its not done. Maybe they will win? But they didn't want to chance they might lose, they wanted it closed.

In the calguns thing, RG says that i didnt seem that upset when i called them when i got the gun. and i wasn't. its business. im not going to yell or swear or get angry bc that doesn't help. I'm a reasonable, rational person. But when you call to make threats against me, that makes it personal. That is utterly unacceptable and it ceases being business. They tried to bully me into dropping this thing, that i have a right to do under the terms we all agreed on, using the threat of government force and ruining my life from the one government agency everyone fears. Fuck them for that. I don't think anyone can disagree that that was wrong.  


later ill find the log showing my call into them when i picked up the gun. i dont have a receipt for that, i paid cash and was on my way.

If there was a chargeback policy for refusing, then can you blame him?  At least now he has the gun and the leverage.  Otherwise he would have to hope the chargeback worked out because he was without the money and gun.  He was trying to work with them for a month until negotiations broke down.

Bandit,

I am posting from my phone, sorry if you already provided this info.

When you say AMEX ruled in your favor, how exactly? Did they reimburse you to some degree?

AmEx ruled that i had enough evidence to support a chargeback. They reversed the charges, which they always do as a SOP, pending the completion of the investigation. They can either keep the credit applied, they can debit it all back to the merchant, or they can debit part of it back to the merchant. I am waiting to hear what they finalized on.

I assume you will return the handgun back to riflegear in the event your card company ultimately finds in your favor.....this is the problem with chargebacks. Because there was an error you are not entitled to free property and what customers who proceed with them don’t realize Is  the retailer is fully capable of bringing a civil action to recover for their loss.

If riflegear admits they illegally and in bad faith threated to call the ATF and my local PD and report it stolen if I didn't drop the dispute on sept 4th, 2020 I might be open to some kind of arrangement. You don't get to treat people like that and get away with it. I would have to be fairly compensated for my labor to go through this process, as my time isn't free and neither is handgun shipping. Threatening a person with law enforcement as an intimidation tactic over a billing dispute is a gross violation of the FCRA and threating a gun owner to involve the ATF and felony charges over an open and ongoing (unresolved and in process) dispute, a process that both parties agreed to mediate any disputes via through cardholder and merchant agreements, over a few missing mags is unconscionable. An FCRA violation is fined at almost 4k. This has gone far beyond an error. All I wanted was the mags they said it came with. When I asked "So what's the catch, it sounds too good to be true" that's the time to state that the package you are selling is missing $160-200 worth of magazines and only has 1 instead of the 3 its known to come with. That's a catch if there ever was one, like a car with only 1 wheel.

Their own policy states.  

I am also deeply concerned about any kind of liability from returning a firearm that was transferred to me. Should there be a crime with it, were someone to be injured by it, or if there was any kind of catastrophic mechanical failure, I would be worried about someone trying to come after me as the previous owner. If I sell it, I can say it's as is, god knows what someone else might do with it when they sell it.

I haven't heard anything from AmEx telling me what they decided and why, until I hear from them, its all theoretical.

That's absurd. It has probably never ever happened. I will also go ahead and say that if you get a full refund the gun should go back on their dime. To try and keep it is every bit as grimy as what you say they did to you.

He didn't ask for a full refund - he's asked for the value of two magazines.

Like I said, I have no idea what will happen because it's all still pending. I am deeply bothered by how they treated me and at the very least I expect a sincere, public and private apology. That's what you do when you do something bad to someone. There has been no further communication from them, if they are interested in working something out depending on how it goes with AmEx, my phone is on and clearly they have the number.