Posted: 9/23/2012 1:59:42 PM EDT
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Earlier this year I picked up a CZ 75B SA from CZ Custom and decided to try the 2K challenge out of the box, that meant no cleaning or maint after the initial out of the box cleaning for 2000 rounds.  I was shooting rounds 1600 through 1800 today with some family and friends at a local range when at round 1710 the pistol did not make it into battery. It continued to do this many more times during the next 90 rounds. The slide action felt slow but nothing was binding. I decided to see what was causing the issue when I got home.  I put some CLP on it to lift the carbon before I took this pic.   And this appears to be part of the problem.  I lubed it initially with Breakfree CLP and Tetra, The Tetra was still on the rails but it appeared seemed somewhat gummy. I went ahead and cleaned it, replaced the recoil spring with a 15lb spring and lubed it back up with some Froglube. Most of the 1800 rounds were Tula or Wolf with a mish mash of Remington, PMC, WWB and Federal bulk. So all in all it made it to 1700 rounds or so before it started to have issues operating, not too shabby at all. With a better recoil spring I doubt it would have had any problem making it 2000 rounds with out a stoppage. |
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If the ramp and rails were clean, that recoil spring would have still been ok.
I have to clean the ramp and firing pin hole on a Kadet Kit on my CZ-75B every 500 rounds to avoid light hits and failure to go completely in to battery due to the buildup. But all I do is lock the slide open and pick the crud off the ramp and out of the firing pin hole, sometimes add some oil to the rails, then it is good to go until I can field strip and really clean it. I think all you did was reach the limit of what the used recoil spring could overcome friction-wise, with the bullet nose drag and some slide rail drag. Here is what it takes to make the Kadet start hanging... http://joelynch.smugmug.com/photos/i-k4GBR7f/0/M/i-k4GBR7f-M.jpg After 30 seconds with a pick and a Q-tip... http://joelynch.smugmug.com/photos/i-KS8Bzcg/0/M/i-KS8Bzcg-M.jpg The 22 runs filthier than a centerfire, takes a lot longer to build up anything in the 9mm. |
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Quoted: Why is that firing pin block still in there   Then I wouldn't have a reason to get an SA Shadow. Quoted: If the ramp and rails were clean, that recoil spring would have still been ok. I have to clean the ramp and firing pin hole on a Kadet Kit on my CZ-75B every 500 rounds to avoid light hits and failure to go completely in to battery due to the buildup. But all I do is lock the slide open and pick the crud off the ramp and out of the firing pin hole, sometimes add some oil to the rails, then it is good to go until I can field strip and really clean it. I think all you did was reach the limit of what the used recoil spring could overcome friction-wise, with the bullet nose drag and some slide rail drag. Here is what it takes to make the Kadet start hanging... http://joelynch.smugmug.com/photos/i-k4GBR7f/0/M/i-k4GBR7f-M.jpg After 30 seconds with a pick and a Q-tip... http://joelynch.smugmug.com/photos/i-KS8Bzcg/0/M/i-KS8Bzcg-M.jpg The 22 runs filthier than a centerfire, takes a lot longer to build up anything in the 9mm. I agree that it would have kept running if it was clean. It surprised me that the recoil spring had shrunk that much, that fast. |
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Maynard, I still think you ran an interesting and useful test. I just think that you might want to continue the test with an pick job and a little oil on the slide every 1000 rounds or so and see how long it runs then, without a deep clean.
There is a fellow on the CZforum that cleans his gun every other year or so, but he adds oil and scrapes the ramp clean more often. He is a competitive shooter with a very high round count. I think if his gun is running, he's afraid to take it apart and clean it for fear he will mess it up or loose something. I understand that. But I often shoot more than 500 rounds of 22 in one session, so I had to figure out the minimum cleaning schedule that would allow me to continue shooting without a detail strip and cleaning. A BoreSnake is a last resort to clean the chamber on the 22, and I have had to use it once or twice at the range as well. Based on your results, looks like a field clean every 1000 rounds would be reasonable to expect, depending on how fresh the recoil spring is, of course, as you pointed out. Thanks for the report on your experiment. Joe |
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Quoted: Earlier this year I picked up a CZ 75B SA from CZ Custom and decided to try the 2K challenge out of the box, that meant no cleaning or maint after the initial out of the box cleaning for 2000 rounds.
Why would someone do this sort of thing to such a terriffic gun? 
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Quoted: Quoted: Earlier this year I picked up a CZ 75B SA from CZ Custom and decided to try the 2K challenge out of the box, that meant no cleaning or maint after the initial out of the box cleaning for 2000 rounds. Why would someone do this sort of thing to such a terriffic gun? To see what sort of reliability one could possibly expect under the circumstances. I learned a few things about the pistol along the way also. The pistol cleaned up fine and is getting taken to the range today.  |
| I shoot dirty lead reloads in mine. I take it apart and clean it when it starts to get sluggish, somewhere over 500 but less than 1000 usually. I could most likely just add some oil and go on, but it usually really does need it. :D Shooting clean jacketed ammo, I figure it could go for a while.. :D |
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To see what sort of reliability one could possibly expect under the circumstances. I learned a few things about the pistol along the way also. Ok, but I still don't see WHY someone would abuse their gun like that. Unless one is stuck out in the Mojave Desert for weeks at a time, I don't believe there would be a terminal shortage of cleaning gear nor time to do so. Again, this is only my .o2, but it's like running one's car with no oil in it just to see how long it would take to lock up the engine. Or fooling around on one's wife unit just to see how mad she'd get....... 
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Quoted: Quoted: To see what sort of reliability one could possibly expect under the circumstances. I learned a few things about the pistol along the way also. Ok, but I still don't see WHY someone would abuse their gun like that. Unless one is stuck out in the Mojave Desert for weeks at a time, I don't believe there would be a terminal shortage of cleaning gear nor time to do so. Again, this is only my .o2, but it's like running one's car with no oil in it just to see how long it would take to lock up the engine. Or fooling around on one's wife unit just to see how mad she'd get....... How do we find failure points unless we do things out of the ordinary? I was surprised that it didn't make it to 2K without having issues. |
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Quoted: Interesting test, thanks for sharing! The interweb experts say that CZ's are "undersprung" out of the box. This makes me wonder if there's some truth to that. In the SA, I would agree with that assessment, might have commented on it after buying the pistol in that thread. It was sprung well under the Wilson 15lb spring that replaced it. I'm going to drop down to 14lb Wolff springs in the future. |
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How do we find failure points unless we do things out of the ordinary? Do you drink till you puke? Run until you pass out? Eat until you puke? Again, it's your gun, do what you want. But who would either want or need to go thousand(s) rds between cleaning? I don't get it. 
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How do we find failure points unless we do things out of the ordinary? Do you drink till you puke? Run until you pass out? Eat until you puke? Again, it's your gun, do what you want. But who would either want or need to go thousand(s) rds between cleaning? I don't get it. I'm sure it didn't hurt anything. It's not remotely the same as the no oil in the engine thing. |
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Quoted: "The interweb experts say that CZ's are "undersprung" out of the box. This makes me wonder if there's some truth to that." NO, they are oversprung, especially the SP-01. That may be the case with the SP-01, it had a flat wire spring versus round coils in all the other CZs I own, but the SA was under-sprung out of the box. |
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Quoted: Quoted: That may be the case with the SP-01, it had a flat wire spring versus round coils in all the other CZs I own, but the SA was under-sprung out of the box. Would that be shown by how far/close the empties were being ejected? Possibly, my indicator was the difference in slide resistance between the SA and my other 75s. |
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That may be the case with the SP-01, it had a flat wire spring versus round coils in all the other CZs I own, but the SA was under-sprung out of the box.
Would that be shown by how far/close the empties were being ejected? Possibly, my indicator was the difference in slide resistance between the SA and my other 75s.
IIRC, Angus Hobdell has stated that they can't get a definitive answer on the exact spring weight. They estimated the 75 to be 16/17lbs and the SP-01 to be 18lbs. |
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Quoted: Quoted: How do we find failure points unless we do things out of the ordinary? Do you drink till you puke? Run until you pass out? Eat until you puke? Again, it's your gun, do what you want. But who would either want or need to go thousand(s) rds between cleaning? I don't get it. You're describing me. It's not about bragging that I took back-to-back carbine courses without cleaning my carbine, it's about finding out where your point/failure-point of reliability are. If you only shoot a firearm off of a bench or in a match setting, it probably doesn't matter. If you carry a firearm on a daily basis and/or into harm's way, it's necessary information. Here's an explanation of the process from an instructor and close friend of mine... My regimen is as follows: If I get a new gun, new-to-me gun or a repaired gun, I will clean and lube it to spec, grab a buttload of ammo of a known quality and shoot it until it fails. The failure will most like be maint-related and not a mechanical failure. After that, clean and lube, shoot it again until it fails with lesser quality practice ammo. Clean and lube, shoot it with quality SD/carry ammo and shoot it until it fails. At that point, I know a few things: 1. General gauge of how long/how many rounds I can run through it dirty; 2. General failure type due to lesser quality ammunition; 3. Feeds, fires & ejects good self defense ammo and what it likes/doesn't like. At that point it goes in the holster for social work. I am not super anal retentive and never kept a log book of #rounds fired through a particular gun. I know when it starts acting finicky due to wear or maint and will generally know how many k rounds before I change springs, detail strip, new extractor, shake the rocks out. Mag in, parts forward, bang. |