Posted: 7/29/2005 1:55:23 PM EDT
| I AM AN ACTIVE SWAT OPERATOR AND FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR. MY PRIMARY IS AN AR-15 AND MY SECONDARY IS A GLOCK .40. I HAVE BECOME INTERESTED IN THE 5.7 MOSTLY BECAUSE OF IT'S ABILITY TO PENETRATE BODY ARMOR. THIS IS A GROWING CONCERN, AS WE ALL KNOW. HOWEVER, I DON'T KNOW MUCH ELSE ABOUT THE WEAPON OR CARTRIDGE. I DISLIKE THE MAGAZINE SAFETY, BUT THAT IS NEGOTIABLE. I JUST DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION. PLEASE EXPRESS YOUR OPIONIONS AND PROVIDE ANY PERSONAL INFO THAT MAY HELP SWAY ME ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. |
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Just wear a level II vest or better, and you'll be fine. It's very unlikely that you'll ever come across a bad guy armed with a Five seveN loaded with real armor piercing ammo. The general consensus around here is that the pistol is prohibitively expensive, and so is the ammo. I bought one a month or so ago, and it just sits in my closet because I can't afford ammo for it. 
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named Brady.
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popobill, Sign up at The Five-seveN Forum and feel free to ask any questions you have. AR15.com isn't the place to ask about the Five-seveN because very few members here like the Five-seveN or even own one. (not talking about you, lu380) The Five-seveN forum has lots of info on the weapon, shooting accounts where it was used, and info on who uses it. Hope this is what you were looking for and hope to see you there! P.S. The pending ban on the Five-seveN and ammo did fail. You can read about that in the political section at the F-sN forum. -DmL |
The use for the Five-seveN is that it is a pistol capable of piercing soft armor just like your rifle. If you need a backup to your AP-capable AR, you want an AP-capable pistol too. -DmL |
I think true AP (SS190) ammo from a Five-seveN MIGHT penetrate better than some conventional (non-FMJ & softnose) projectiles from a 5.56, but that is only a slight speculation. Good luck on getting your hands on some SS190, unless you're a LEO or MIL. Quoting FN Hertal's own website: The SS190 round will NOT penetrate protections that stop the 5.56 x 45 mm round ( steel plates, ceramic,...) |
well, i figure another magazine full of 556 is easier to tote than another pistol...and i think having a "large caliber" pistol as a backup to a longarm is a more versatile combo. |
Okay, let's put it this way: if you see no use for the Five-seveN as backup, you can't see any use for any pistol as backup. The Five-seveN isn't somehow harder to carry than other full-size backups. It is an extremely light, high capacity pistol capable of piercing armor just like your rifle. Sure, the lethality of the round is questioned by some, but provided the lethality is adequate, I can't see how you could not see an application for this pistol. -DmL |
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DML, Your reasoning is rock solid there! I've encountered so much prejudging of the FsN on this FORUM, I hardly ever come back. It is a happy coincidence that when I did come in for a look, I find you making the case for the best "tie breaker" of a modern handgun of reasonable size and weight out there right now. More power to ya! |
| I think as L.E. you can buy the ss190.the accuracy of mine is unmatched even by my hks and recoil so low placing two or three rounds in the same spot is also unmatched you can fire so fast and get 0 muzzle climb! I have one for sale nib w/13 boxs of the ss192(no longer imported ammo)2300fps w/3 20's if intrested I bought two of the usg (goverment model) |
| I have shot the five-seven pistol and loved it greatly as it has extremely low recoil allowing a much faster follow up shot. (not to mention the 20rnd mag capacity in a standard size pistol grip. What other pistol can say that without some monstrosity sticking out the bottom?) If you figure 1 mag in the pistol, and 2 in the belt, its quite a lot of rounds. I have also had the chance to shoot the same round in a FN P-90 and liked it as well. If it were not for the current expense of the round, the five-seven pistol would have been my latest purchase instead of my new XM-177 clone. Another thing nice, is in the chance of overshooting a target, its speed slows enough by about 400yds as to not be lethal. The local motorcycle officers where I live carry the P-90 in their side carrier (nice fit BTW) and also carry five-seven's for sidearm as to use the same round. |
Could I ask which agency that is? I'm compiling a list of agencies that use these weapons and I would like to add the above. Thanks for your time. -DmL |
IM sent |
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I would put more time into shooting smaller targets under pressure. Try IDPA or something. Even with the right type of ammo the stuff still has little stopping power. Sorry to rain on the parade but the best way to defeat body armor is to avoid it. Two to the chest one to the head will do the trick. |
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the best way to deal with body armor is to avoid it......well that certainly fits in with the best gun fight is the one you see on the news while shoving twinkies in your face... But it may not be an option in real life......we are arresting more and more gangbangers and low lifes with SBA vests. one only has to go as far as ebay to get one...most of the time they have over 300 of them listed. They are also one of the first things taken when a policemans house gets burlarized. Bad people want them because it is preceived to give them an edge over a victim or over another thug...and of course DA 'popo's the two to the torso and one to the head ,and its all neatly over with ditty goes to crap in real life as the BG you are trying to shoot is most likely trying to shoot/stab you during this(otherwise you would not be using deadly force on them) and isnt standing still (darn uncooprative of them) The head in combat is hit by "chance" far more than often than by concious effort. dont count on a head shot in a real fight. averyone needs to do the two to the torso one to the head test.....we use simunition ,but you and your buds can do this with airsoft or paintball guns(and proper face/eye protection)....you will quicly see that the 2/1 crap was dreamed up while punching B27 targets...not on real (mean/armed)people......come back and tell us how it went :) the most common cure for soft body armor is simply a patrol rifle.....but it doesnt do you any good if its back in the car or at home when the confrontation occurs. My agency has five sevens availible for high risk warrants/details where information leads us to believe sba's may be a factor. We love the things and have tested the heck out of them. Lu380...a LII will not protect you from SS192 civy fire from normal pistol gunfight distance...you need a IIIA |
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You know, I'm in Michigan and I've never heard a true SWAT guy identify himself as "operator". That's a language spoken by mall ninjas. FiveSeven is a neat toy, but with commercially available ammo it's not a cop killer, just an overglorified .22 Mag. If you recall the Barnes X bullets in .45 and marketed by Taurus there were delays in getting it to the public because the BATF had to make certain it was not armor piercing. It is unlawful to sell armor piercing handgun ammunition to anyone other than the military or civilian law enforcement. www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm |
On a side note: What do you think of using the Barnes Solid Bullets 22 Caliber (224 Diameter) 45 Grain Spitzer RELOADED into a 5.7 round? Not being an "X" type bullet, it would penetrate deeper than expected I think. It would be interesting to see how that penetrated. |
| Well, that may be in Michigan, but in Texas you will see this term in any respectable SWAT periodical, such as Command magazine (which is the official newsletter of the Texas Tactical Police Officers Association). The term is also commonly used by recognized instructors, most of which refer to themselves as retired "operators" in the special forces of the U.S. military. The term "operator" signifies one who is truly active in SWAT operations and is currently assigned to an area such as the entry team. With that being said, it would be appreciated if you would limit your comments to something relating to the topic in question. Thanks |
| We originally used our own sidearms but have since decided to issue the Glock 22. This is also our issued SWAT sidearm. However, there has been some discussion about allowing personal secondary weapons for SWAT operators. Before entering into this subject with "the powers that be" I wanted to do some research first. |
| If you're doing an entry, I'd stick to the M4 platform. However, for a daily, if the issue of bad guys with vests really bothers you, I'd say go for it. If you will have to provide your own ammo, get the big picture on prices, and if the PD will supply ammo for you, well, cool beans. If you can, and if you haven't already, handle one, and shoot one if possible. |
| I would never consider not carrying my M4 on entry. I keep it with me EVERYWHERE! After all, the only thing better than a rifle is two guys with rifles. I have decided to stick with my glock as my secondary. Thanks for all of the input though. It is much appreciated. |
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Glad to see you've made a decision. I would like to chime in on the abilities of the 5.7 though. If your goal is to defeat possible body armor (defeat not avoid), then IMO the 5.7 is the way to go. While there are many cals out there than can penetrate lvl 2a vests (with the right loads), I don't think there are many that penetrat lvl 3a. The 5.7 can penetrate (with ss192 non AP) lvl 2a, lvl 2, lvl 3a. Ammo prices are not that bad. I just got 10 fifty round boxes from Natchez for $20/box. Also, the new ss197 round should be out soon. Seeing as you're SWAT, I believe that you can get the ss190 AP rounds (must be sent to the PD). |