Posted: 2/9/2009 6:08:27 AM EDT
|
Kahr failing drop tests?
Read news story below- http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705277512,00.html –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– Man hurt when gun blasts toilet Published: January 15, 2009 CENTERVILLE — A man was wounded by shrapnel from a toilet when his concealed weapon accidentally went off while he was using the bathroom, police said. It happened Tuesday at the Carl's Jr. restaurant at 385 N. 800 West. Police said the 26-year-old man had gone into the bathroom to use the toilet, armed with a .40-caliber Kahr P40 handgun. The man, who has a valid concealed weapon permit and was lawfully in possession of the gun, had it in a holster inside his pants. "While pulling his pants up the gun fell out of the holster, striking the tile floor," Centerville Police Lt. Paul Child said Wednesday. "When the gun hit the floor, it went off, and the bullet struck the toilet, shattering it and sending sharp pieces of porcelain flying." The man was hit by some porcelain shards, lacerating his arm. No one else was injured, but an employee of the restaurant in the next-door women's restroom heard the gunshot and panicked. "She was shaken, she was upset and was complaining of some chest pain," Child said. The man walked into the restaurant area, holding his wound and asked an employee to call 911. Police and paramedics responded to the call of shots fired inside the restaurant and ended up treating the man for the cuts to his arm. The woman also was treated at the scene. "In this case it appears that the accident would have been prevented if the man had used a secure holster," Child said. "A good quality firearm also should not fire if it is dropped." The man was not cited, but police took the firearm for safekeeping while they finish their investigation. "He was shaken up. We felt it was prudent to secure the firearm," Child said. "He'll be able to have the firearm released back to him." –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– I have recently heard of Kahr and it's lack of "Drop Safety" I thought this was particularly interesting since it has a firing pin safety block. I spoke with a gentleman that has a .40 hole in his ceiling because his brother in law dropped his Kahr off the kitchen table. Insults to this gentleman aside, the gun should not have fired. Second, at a firing range, a shooter down the line from the same individual dropped a different Kahr, and it fired a hole in the ceiling as well. After further inspection of the Kahr and the engineering behind the drop safety, I would say that it is possible, and not entirely unlikely. To my surprise, the cocking cam on the Kahr will rotate without movement from the trigger/trigger bar. What this allows is that with a drop, if it hits the rear of the gun at the right spot, the cocking cam should be able to rotate in a way that would press the firing pin safety block. As mentioned, the firing pin safety on the Kahr is similar to the Glock. Except the Glock's safety is actuated by the movement of the trigger bar. Because the Glock has the "safe action" trigger, should a Glock be dropped, the trigger safety isn't depressed, locking the trigger bar from moving forward or rearward. This would prevent any type of accidental discharge. |
|
the guy on the crapper didn't have his kahr in a holster in his pocket. I ain't buying the story either of the 40 cal falling off the table and discharging. Actually a kahr IMO is even more safe than a glock, for other than the trigger safety on the glock, the striker is cocked at least 50 to 60% prestaged. On the kahr the striker system is cocked at best 20% prestaged. Un less the trigger on the kahr is pulled that gun won't go off period. The cocking cam is what actuvates the striker block to move out of the way allowing the striker to go forward, JUST LIKE A GLOCK.
Probably if I shot a hole in my roof I would certainly try to blame the gun to, same thing with sitting on the crapper, blame the gun.. this shooter and owner of kahrs sure ain't buying into that story. If you feel the kahr is unsafe based on those two article, then indeed peddle it and get a paint ball gun. |
|
Quoted:
the guy on the crapper didn't have his kahr in a holster in his pocket. Oh, so you're saying that because he didn't have a pocket holster, the gun should never have been dropped in the first place? Yet, it still dropped, and it still fired. I don't care if he was walking around the house with it balanced on his head, if it falls it shouldn't fire. Quoted:
I ain't buying the story either of the 40 cal falling off the table and discharging. I don't really care if you're not buying it. It happened. It came from a very good source, and it seems to coincide with what is plausible, as pointed out by the Utah Case. Might I also add that the Kahr failed NIJ drop tests? http://www.justnet.org/Lists/JUSTNET%20Resources/Attachments/1290/pistolsbulletin2000.pdf |
|
Quoted: Quoted: I ain't buying the story either of the 40 cal falling off the table and discharging. I don't really care if you're not buying it. It happened. It came from a very good source, and it seems to coincide with what is plausible, as pointed out by the Utah Case. Might I also add that the Kahr failed NIJ drop tests? http://www.justnet.org/Lists/JUSTNET%20Resources/Attachments/1290/pistolsbulletin2000.pdf  .........armed with a .40-caliber Kahr P40 handgun. Not a valid comparison. The Kahr/MK40 failed the NJ drop test while the Kahr/K9 passed. Neither being polymer framed like the Kahr/P40. |
|
This is strange due to the Kahr pistols passing the H.P. White labs drop test, which were the most stringent test done.
http://www.kahr.com/PA-1B/review_hp_0400.html It passed the California tests and was certified: http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/ One test often quoted to show the .40 Kahr failing was the NLCTC test, but a closer reading shows that test was done in 1999. http://www.justnet.org/Lists/JUSTNET%20Resources/Attachments/1290/pistolsbulletin2000.pdf One thing you'll almost always hear at a big city police academy is strict warnings about not handling your gun while in the john. Its common for cops to have "accidents" in bathrooms then claim they dropped the gun "and it just went off". Usually, the investigation shows no signs of a dropped gun, and the cop was often sitting there and handling the gun and not paying attention. While anything is possible, these days with autos as safe as DA revolvers, there's always the suspicion that the "dropped gun" was carelessness. No one wants to admit "I was sitting there absentmindedly playing with my loaded gun and accidentally fired it". Again, ANYTHING is possible, BUT........ |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I ain't buying the story either of the 40 cal falling off the table and discharging. I don't really care if you're not buying it. It happened. It came from a very good source, and it seems to coincide with what is plausible, as pointed out by the Utah Case. Might I also add that the Kahr failed NIJ drop tests? http://www.justnet.org/Lists/JUSTNET%20Resources/Attachments/1290/pistolsbulletin2000.pdf .........armed with a .40-caliber Kahr P40 handgun.
Not a valid comparison. The Kahr/MK40 failed the NJ drop test while the Kahr/K9 passed. Neither being polymer framed like the Kahr/P40. You are correct, but the comparison isn't supposed to be apples to apples. I think this is a flaw in the engineering of the design itself, primarily the cocking cam having the ability to rotate freely, regardless of the trigger being pressed or not. Oh, and the guy with a hole in his ceiling, that was a CW9. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
The cocking cam is what actuvates the striker block to move out of the way allowing the striker to go forward, JUST LIKE A GLOCK. Actually, you are incorrect. It is the trigger bar, that on a Glock, presses the firing pin safety block. Ur right but IMO the trigger bar on the kahr actually activates the cocking cam which relaeses the striker block. anyway not trying to argue over schmatics either, I guess anything can happen. If you have a karh and don't trust it peddle it, I will ride with mine in my front pocket as I have for two years. Keep you finger off the trigger and th kahr will not harm you. take the slide off and look at that striker set up. that striker if cocked 20% is about all u have. now push in the striker block, there isn't enough monentujm to do anything IMO. I can have my doubts also, It's always the guns fault, never shooter error . The cocking cam is also held in sprng tension, mine sure in hell does't bounce around freely, nor does my K9... |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The cocking cam is what actuvates the striker block to move out of the way allowing the striker to go forward, JUST LIKE A GLOCK. Actually, you are incorrect. It is the trigger bar, that on a Glock, presses the firing pin safety block. Ur right but IMO the trigger bar on the kahr actually activates the cocking cam which relaeses the striker block. Yes. The trigger bar does actuate the cocking cam, but with Kahr's design, but because the cocking cam is not physically prevented from pivoting, so can anything other than the trigger bar, I.E. inertia. The trigger bar's "hook" at the end just pushes against the cocking cam, causing it to pivot. Quoted:
take the slide off and look at that striker set up. that striker if cocked 20% is about all u have. now push in the striker block, there isn't enough monentujm to do anything IMO. There isn't enough momentum to do anything IN YOUR OPINION?! It's your opinion that there's not enough momentum? I'll tell you this, there are 2 verifiable drop fires... that I know happened. And then one reported in Utah. From the pictures of the toilet, you can clearly see the gun powder on the side of the toilet, the gun did fire upward. How would a person in a normal situation have an AD that close to the floor, so close to the toilet? Which situation sounds more probable? Accidental discharge chalked up to stupidity or the gun accidentally dropped? I think the facts being presented are contrary to your opinion. Either these events didn't happen or your opinion is correct. Where do you think lies the error? Quoted:
The cocking cam is also held in sprng tension So? Drop tested semi auto's all have the firing pin being pushed back and it being held back with spring tension. That's what i'm saying, although there is spring tension applied, the cocking cam is still pivoting freely, which can relieve the firing pin safety block, allowing the firing pin to strike. –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– On a side note... I own a Kahr. I love my Kahr. I still love my Kahr. I'm not selling my Kahr. Hell, I'm the proud owner of the nicest Kahr I have ever seen. That doesn't change my thought about the fact that, if dropped, I think the probability of a drop fire is extremely slim, except the possibility still exists. I do believe this is a flaw in engineering, and I think Kahr should fix it. |
| the cocking cam is spring tensioned. Mine does not flop around. It is always wanting under spring tension to be pushed away from the striker block..Very easy to see that if one just finigles the cocking cam. ..I am not talking about the srtriker being partially held under any tension. I stated the striker is cocked about 20% compared to a glocks at least 50% or more. I am talking about the cocking cam. it is tensioned by a spring. It does not flow around loose... |
|
Quoted:
the cocking cam is spring tensioned. Mine does not flop around. It is always wanting under spring tension to be pushed away from the striker block..Very easy to see that if one just finigles the cocking cam. ..I am not talking about the srtriker being partially held under any tension. I stated the striker is cocked about 20% compared to a glocks at least 50% or more. I am talking about the cocking cam. it is tensioned by a spring. It does not flow around loose... Your argument: It is highly unlikely for the cocking cam to pivot do to the fact that is it under spring tension
My rebuttal: It might be highly unlikely for a cocking cam to move due to inertia, while it is under spring tension, but I don't feel that it is impossible.
Take firing pins for instance, which are also under spring tension. In a drop test, when said gun fails, the inertia causes the firing pin to move against the tension of the spring, striking the primer, and causing the gun to fire. My point is, objects under spring tension can still be forced to move against the applied pressure due to a sudden drop and stop. |
| I guarantee it that when he dropped it, he tried to grab it and grab the trigger causing it to fire. It is a natural reaction to grab something when it falls. The dumbass was shitting and finger fucking his gun. It dropped, he tried to grab it, boom. He is just to embarassed to say what happened. |
|
Quoted:
I guarantee it that when he dropped it, he tried to grab it and grab the trigger causing it to fire. It is a natural reaction to grab something when it falls. The dumbass was shitting and finger fucking his gun. It dropped, he tried to grab it, boom. He is just to embarassed to say what happened. What about the other 2 cases that I can guarantee the trigger wasn't fingered? |
|
no sense really arguing about it, you have kahrs, you love them. I personally do not feel there is a design flaw i the gun. U do. to different opinions. Probably sholud move on from this, as WE WILL NEVER KNOW THE WHOLE STORY. I trust mine for the reasons I stated.
why don'tu run this by the kahr people to see what they have to say... |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I guarantee it that when he dropped it, he tried to grab it and grab the trigger causing it to fire. It is a natural reaction to grab something when it falls. The dumbass was shitting and finger fucking his gun. It dropped, he tried to grab it, boom. He is just to embarassed to say what happened. What about the other 2 cases that I can guarantee the trigger wasn't fingered? WAS U THERE?/ WHEN this happened. to guarantee such a thing, |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I guarantee it that when he dropped it, he tried to grab it and grab the trigger causing it to fire. It is a natural reaction to grab something when it falls. The dumbass was shitting and finger fucking his gun. It dropped, he tried to grab it, boom. He is just to embarassed to say what happened. What about the other 2 cases that I can guarantee the trigger wasn't fingered? WAS U THERE?/ WHEN this happened. to guarantee such a thing, WAS U THERE?/ WHEN we landed on teh Moonz? 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I guarantee it that when he dropped it, he tried to grab it and grab the trigger causing it to fire. It is a natural reaction to grab something when it falls. The dumbass was shitting and finger fucking his gun. It dropped, he tried to grab it, boom. He is just to embarassed to say what happened. What about the other 2 cases that I can guarantee the trigger wasn't fingered? WAS U THERE?/ WHEN this happened. to guarantee such a thing, WAS U THERE?/ WHEN we landed on teh Moonz?
No but we did see it happen on tv LIVE;;;??? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
What in the holy clusterfuck happened in this thread???? Tried to point out a weak point in engineering for open discussion, and got argued with by a cool-aid drinker. In the cool-aid drinker's defense, he spends a lot of his time on this forum and is overall VERY helpful to many who come here with questions on Kahrs. Does he know everything, or is he infallible? Are any of us? Perhaps his facts are incorrect in this case. I don't know. You both know more about this than I do. What I do know it that you took the angry, defensive and argumentative position here first and you brought it on strong. Debate him all you want, that's fine. But I think you're coming on a little hard here. |
|
Hey all,
Sorry I've been gone so long. Gun sales are a little busy right now!! I heard through the grapevine member's were asking for someone from Kahr...so here I am. This story of the fella on the john is getting out of hand. I read the story the day after it happened. I immediately knew the guy pulled the trigger, but who is going to admit that?!? The man was messing with his gun on the toilet and I suspect he dropped it and tried to grab it during the fall, pulling the trigger. For the record, Kahr has NEVER failed a drop test of any kind...ever! The NIJ test failed due to a magazine lock pin that broke off and would not allow the magazine to stay in the gun. We're not too happy about that happening, but it is what it is. The gun was submitted for the drop test, but never actually went through the drop test due to the ear of that mag drop pin being broke. You can read the threads and posts. You can argue with others over it. You can believe a fella in UT who had his pants down and shot a toilet in a fast food restaurant... but the truth of the matter is that a Kahr handgun will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. KahrGirl |
|
Quoted:
Hey all, Sorry I've been gone so long. Gun sales are a little busy right now!! I heard through the grapevine member's were asking for someone from Kahr...so here I am. This story of the fella on the john is getting out of hand. I read the story the day after it happened. I immediately knew the guy pulled the trigger, but who is going to admit that?!? The man was messing with his gun on the toilet and I suspect he dropped it and tried to grab it during the fall, pulling the trigger. For the record, Kahr has NEVER failed a drop test of any kind...ever! The NIJ test failed due to a magazine lock pin that broke off and would not allow the magazine to stay in the gun. We're not too happy about that happening, but it is what it is. The gun was submitted for the drop test, but never actually went through the drop test due to the ear of that mag drop pin being broke. You can read the threads and posts. You can argue with others over it. You can believe a fella in UT who had his pants down and shot a toilet in a fast food restaurant... but the truth of the matter is that a Kahr handgun will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. KahrGirl Thanks for checking in! 
|
|
Quoted:
Hey all, Sorry I've been gone so long. Gun sales are a little busy right now!! I heard through the grapevine member's were asking for someone from Kahr...so here I am. This story of the fella on the john is getting out of hand. I read the story the day after it happened. I immediately knew the guy pulled the trigger, but who is going to admit that?!? The man was messing with his gun on the toilet and I suspect he dropped it and tried to grab it during the fall, pulling the trigger. For the record, Kahr has NEVER failed a drop test of any kind...ever! The NIJ test failed due to a magazine lock pin that broke off and would not allow the magazine to stay in the gun. We're not too happy about that happening, but it is what it is. The gun was submitted for the drop test, but never actually went through the drop test due to the ear of that mag drop pin being broke. You can read the threads and posts. You can argue with others over it. You can believe a fella in UT who had his pants down and shot a toilet in a fast food restaurant... but the truth of the matter is that a Kahr handgun will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. KahrGirl First of all, thank you for your reply KahrGirl. For now I have one question. Can the Cocking Cam be rotated independent of the trigger being pulled? I.E. your finger, inertia, the force. |
| weenis. I know u ask the kahr girl that question but you know very well with the slide off one can physically move the cocking cam without pulling the trigger. As I havestated before and as even agreed the cocking cam is held in place by a spring to keep it from flopping freely . |
|
Quoted:
weenis. I know u ask the kahr girl that question but you know very well with the slide off one can physically move the cocking cam without pulling the trigger. As I havestated before and as even agreed the cocking cam is held in place by a spring to keep it from flopping freely . Thanks for your input Porsche. I would like KahrGirl to answer my question. |
|
Quoted:
for the record a kahr has never failed the drop test!! point, game, match.... It failed NIJ. KahrGirl pointed this out. She can say all day long that it was a magazine lock pin but it still failed, and there has never been an official explanation as to why it failed. We, as consumers, don't REALLY know if it was the magazine catch lock pin, for all we know, according to the report the gun might have fired. So no. Quoted:
for the record a kahr has never failed the drop test!! Quoted::
For the record, Kahr has NEVER failed a drop test of any kind...ever! These statements simply are untrue. |
|
Dude you obviously started this thread looking for an arguement.
You say you own a Kahr. If its really an issue to you then do your own drop test with the firearm unloaded or with snapcaps. You're of the opinion the gun is unsafe. Porshe, Kahrgirl, myself, and several others who have posted in the thread obviously feel the gun will not fire when dropped. Just as "We, as consumers, don't REALLY know if it was the magazine catch lock pin", you don't REALLY know that the gun fired as a result of being drop in any of the instances you are mentioning. I know, you have a "very good source" though. I have a "very good source" that tells me Elvis, Tupac, and Biggie are sitting in the Bahamas together counting millions of dollars and smoking blunts.  That doesn't make it a fact.
|
|
Quoted:
Dude you obviously started this thread looking for an arguement. You say you own a Kahr. If its really an issue to you then do your own drop test with the firearm unloaded or with snapcaps. You're of the opinion the gun is unsafe. Porshe, Kahrgirl, myself, and several others who have posted in the thread obviously feel the gun will not fire when dropped. Just as "We, as consumers, don't REALLY know if it was the magazine catch lock pin", you don't REALLY know that the gun fired as a result of being drop in any of the instances you are mentioning. I know, you have a "very good source" though. I have a "very good source" that tells me Elvis, Tupac, and Biggie are sitting in the Bahamas together counting millions of dollars and smoking blunts. That doesn't make it a fact.ur dead right, he just got caught and can't get ou tof it. Now he is using the failed test in NJ to fulfill his reasoning.she stated the reaosn for the failure and why, completely different than what he was saying they all failed for. Course now her statements are now not true either. His sources, are the same as the ones that seen elvis last week. don't you smell a "troll" on this site?????? Good idea, though, lert him load one up and throw it all around to prove his point. for a statement from a karh person who does know doesn't hold water with him. Oh well, u can lead a horse to water but you canj't make him drink either. point, game, MATCH. damn, I knew Elvis was alive, now your the 3rd person who told me that. thanks, now I know it is a fact... 
|
|
Quoted:
Can the Cocking Cam be rotated independent of the trigger being pulled? I.E. your finger, inertia, the force. well evidently YOU DON'T OWN a kahr our you wold have answered your own question. It can be moved by your finger and your inertia crap is just crap. the striker block is also spring loaded and it has to be also pushed inward by the cocking cam in order for it to release the striker (which is less than 20% pre cocked even ), there is no way the spring loaded cocking cam is going to inertia force itself into the spring loaded striker block and then release the partially 20% loaded striker and produce a ignition. You just want to now be pinned with the badge of being called a TROLL. Take your marbles weenie and just go play by yourself... point, game, MATCH. |
|
Quoted:
Weenis, what are you trying to accomplish here? I'm trying to get someone to acknowledge that the design is potentially dangerous, and hopefully someone at Kahr will realize it and engineer a safety. Quoted:
well evidently YOU DON'T OWN a kahr our you wold have answered your own question. It can be moved by your finger and your inertia crap is just crap. the striker block is also spring loaded and it has to be also pushed inward by the cocking cam in order for it to release the striker (which is less than 20% pre cocked even ), there is no way the spring loaded cocking cam is going to inertia force itself into the spring loaded striker block and then release the partially 20% loaded striker and produce a ignition. Unless, for instance, in the event that the gun was dropped on it's rear, the tension applied to the cocking cam by the "20% pre-cocked" striker would be alleviated, simultaneously allowing the cocking cam to rotate without being hindered by the partially loaded 20% striker. Quoted:
You just want to now be pinned with the badge of being called a TROLL. Take your marbles weenie and just go play by yourself... point, game, MATCH. You're getting quite personal and heated over this. You should set your emotions aside and try thinking for once. Unless you're getting heated cause you suck at thinking 
|
|
weenis,
Your arguments are well documented in this thread. Kahrgirl has already responded that she disagrees with the position you have taken. Thus, it seems that Kahr is not likely to be changing its design based on your comments here, whether they should or not. Neither will your mind, nor porsche's mind, be changed by the continued banter, which is bordering on personal attacks from both sides. I call for an end of the thread as no more is likely to be accomplished here. Take care and stay safe. |
|
Quoted:
weenis, Your arguments are well documented in this thread. Kahrgirl has already responded that she disagrees with the position you have taken. Thus, it seems that Kahr is not likely to be changing its design based on your comments here, whether they should or not. Neither will your mind, nor porsche's mind, be changed by the continued banter, which is bordering on personal attacks from both sides. I call for an end of the thread as no more is likely to be accomplished here. Take care and stay safe. Will do! I'm still keeping my Kahr. 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
weenis, Your arguments are well documented in this thread. Kahrgirl has already responded that she disagrees with the position you have taken. Thus, it seems that Kahr is not likely to be changing its design based on your comments here, whether they should or not. Neither will your mind, nor porsche's mind, be changed by the continued banter, which is bordering on personal attacks from both sides. I call for an end of the thread as no more is likely to be accomplished here. Take care and stay safe. Will do! I'm still keeping my Kahr. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/mainah/Guns/982.jpg That Kahr looks terrific! I really need to get a hold of a steel framed Kahr. Good pic. 
|
|
The nominal trigger pull is about 7 lbs. But for the sake of argument lets assume that the gun in question has has 30,000 rounds put through it and the springs are well broken in giving a trigger pull of 5 lbs. The unbalanced weight of the trigger is .00022 of the required trigger pull. You could not throw the gun down hard enough to generate enough energy to fire the gun. The possibility of the gun firing from a 2 foot fall is about as possible as President Obama naming Wayne LaPierre to head the ATF. Besides all of our guns have passed a 6 foot drop test, the industry standard.
Again, the gun sent to NIJ didnt go through the drop test because of the mag issue stated before. It was considered "failed" due to mag issue, which stopped the completion of the test, it was never actually drop tested. Great looking Kahr - you know Crimson Trace makes the laser grips for the steel series guns now. Would be a nice addition. KahrGirl |
|
Thank you kahr girl. Now where is my P380, course I would really love the dlc finish and glad to see that will be coming down the road. Keep up the good work and again thank you for watcing rthis site. they are all good people here and I feel we can all agree that we can alsl disagree.
thank you Course mY POS PM9 has 18, 550 round sthrough it and darn I found a broken magazine follower. Should I peddle the gun and get a "good one" or what??? By the way Elvis is alive. I have that from good sources
|
|
Quoted:
The nominal trigger pull is about 7 lbs. But for the sake of argument lets assume that the gun in question has has 30,000 rounds put through it and the springs are well broken in giving a trigger pull of 5 lbs. The unbalanced weight of the trigger is .00022 of the required trigger pull. You could not throw the gun down hard enough to generate enough energy to fire the gun. Perfect! This is the type of reply I would like. You're absolutely correct if the firing of the gun relied on the trigger, but since the cocking cam will rotate without the trigger being pulled, all of the science behind figuring the amount of energy required to make the trigger pull and thus make the gun fire has to be redone. All calculations then need to be created based on the amount of force required for simply the spring on the cocking cam (maybe half of that required by the trigger? Maybe? We'll say 3.5 lbs'ish) and the force required to alleviate tension applied by the spring on the firing pin. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
The nominal trigger pull is about 7 lbs. But for the sake of argument lets assume that the gun in question has has 30,000 rounds put through it and the springs are well broken in giving a trigger pull of 5 lbs. The unbalanced weight of the trigger is .00022 of the required trigger pull. You could not throw the gun down hard enough to generate enough energy to fire the gun. Perfect! This is the type of reply I would like. You're absolutely correct if the firing of the gun relied on the trigger, but since the cocking cam will rotate without the trigger being pulled, all of the science behind figuring the amount of energy required to make the trigger pull and thus make the gun fire has to be redone. All calculations then need to be created based on the amount of force required for simply the spring on the cocking cam (maybe half of that required by the trigger? Maybe? We'll say 3.5 lbs'ish) and the force required to alleviate tension applied by the spring on the firing pin. Heh winner, SUE UM for a bad design. Lets make these guns safe...
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The nominal trigger pull is about 7 lbs. But for the sake of argument lets assume that the gun in question has has 30,000 rounds put through it and the springs are well broken in giving a trigger pull of 5 lbs. The unbalanced weight of the trigger is .00022 of the required trigger pull. You could not throw the gun down hard enough to generate enough energy to fire the gun. Perfect! This is the type of reply I would like. You're absolutely correct if the firing of the gun relied on the trigger, but since the cocking cam will rotate without the trigger being pulled, all of the science behind figuring the amount of energy required to make the trigger pull and thus make the gun fire has to be redone. All calculations then need to be created based on the amount of force required for simply the spring on the cocking cam (maybe half of that required by the trigger? Maybe? We'll say 3.5 lbs'ish) and the force required to alleviate tension applied by the spring on the firing pin. Heh winner, SUE UM for a bad design. Lets make these guns safe...
Why do you keep going with the attacks? She responded politely, I responded politely. It's how a discussion works. I think there's only 1 troll here... |
|
I'm no engineer, just a retired Master watchmaker/gunsmith.
I own an early Kahr K9 stainless, and have done a thorough look at the design, including total disassembly. The sear is a rotary design, that must actually rotate to release the pre-loaded firing pin. The rotary sear has its own spring that adds tension, PLUS the strong firing pin spring puts a significant amount of tension on the sear. Due to leverage, the amount of force required to rotate the sear against the springs is significantly higher than rotating the sear by pulling the trigger. Again, leverage. The sear is a fairly well balanced design with about equal mass on the top and bottom. In other words, the sear doesn't have a massive, heavy top and a light weight bottom. Its well balanced so inertia has little effect. What all this means is, a simple drop can't cause the sear to rotate. Rotation of an object requires varying forces that are unlikely to occur in the Kahr. In addition, the force would have to be enough to overcome the sear spring, and the firing pin spring, and the well balanced mass of the sear itself. "Can" this happen? Based on anything being "possible"...... Maybe, but would require dropping the gun from a great height, like off the top of a building, AND would require some very unlikely differing direction forces to be applied that could cause a rotating part to rotate. A sliding part can be moved by application of sufficient force, but again, a rotating part requires more than force applied in one direction. The only possible scenario that might cause a Kahr sear to rotate in a drop would be a long drop accompanied by very violently spinning the gun at a high speed. An experiment would be to hold a Kahr by the front and throw it as hard as you can against a brick wall, giving the gun a violent spin as you throw it so it hits the wall while spinning. I suspect you'd break bricks and destroy the gun before you managed to induce a discharge. Remember, all autos today are intended to pass a DROP test of 6 feet. Not some weird one in a billion mischance. Makers try to make the gun safe for use in the real world, not Fantasy Land where Mickey falls off the Empire State building and is saved by a snow drift that breaks his fall. In the Kahr, you're going to have to apply some very unlikely forces to cause a heavily loaded rotating part to rotate. |