Posted: 12/29/2008 9:50:40 PM EDT
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I just bought a 7.5” Freedom Arms Premier Grade .454 Casull off consignment (it was a good deal, I think, and it needed a home, before it might be sent off to the Island of Misfit Cannons). I eventually want to hunt big things with it. I have countless questions. Here are a few:
[1] I bought it with the understanding from the very reputable seller (and other sources) that you can shoot 45 Long Colt through it, much like one can shoot .38 Specials through a .357 Mag. and .44 Specials in .44 Mag. However, the manual simply says: “The use of .45 Long Colt ammunition in .454 Casull chambers is NOT recommended. An optional .45 Long Colt cylinder is available …” As nice as this gun is, I am tempted to follow that advice and not shoot .45 colt rounds through it. Though I had planned to do so to get familiar with the gun. Or is that statement in the manual overly cautious? I also don’t want to wear the gun out target shooting with the anti-tank-like rounds. I hate to admit it, but, even though I have never found my Redhawk .44 Mag that bad to shoot with full-house Mag loads, I am a little intimidated about firing the most violent .454 loads to start out. For example: Hornady 240 Grain XTP JHP: 1900 fps/ 1923 ft lbs. OMG!!! Ouch! [2] Should I stick to .454 ammo, and just start out with something like (A) Federal Fusion 260 Grain JHP: 1350 fps/1050 ft lbs; or (B) Winchester Super-X 250 Grain JHP: 1300 fps/ 938 ft. lbs.? If so, will the point of impact be way off when I progress to the hotter loads? [3] What’s your favorite ammo for bear/elk? [4] Should I scope it? I kind of hate to do it for the aesthetic reasons and to avoidi the weight and awkwardness, but I assume it will help tame recoil and would make longer shots easier. If so, what type of scope and mounts are good choices (I would prefer one on the smaller side, if possible)? [5] Should I get a Freedom Arms’ holster? Is the cross-draw holster comfy with the 7.5” barrel? Better off with the shoulder rig? Something else? Ideally, I would like something that could go on my 2” web belt on my H-harness. But the only FA holsters that fit on a 2” belt are the western style ones, and I assume that the gun would be sticking into the ground any time I sat down, right? [6] Anything else I should know? If you are still reading, thanks in advance for any suggestions. |
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I have never owned a FA revolver myself, though I desire to, very badly. Regarding your first question, the one I consider the most pressing, take some time and read this: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=41470 The thread may get very technical at times, but I think you'll find the information you seek in there. I don't like scopes on sixguns (fiveguns). I'll leave it at that. |
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the tollerances are so tight on all f/a revolvers that after two shots the powder residue makes it difficult for the new round to be chambered in the cylinder. requires a bit of a push to seat the round. the 45lc is shorter than the 454 and will cause excessive powder residue and an increase in pressure...
i sent my f/a back took about three weeks round trip for them to make me a 45acp cylinder for my 7.5 field grade. speak with John at f/a, great guy. from their site CYLINDERS 794-1501 Additional for Model 83 454 Casull®Revolver .45 Colt. $371.00 794-1504 Additional for Model 83 454 Casull®Revolver .45 ACP $371.00 magtech makes some easy loads for the 454, you can get them from midway or other places. i also have a premier f/a with a leup 2x scope- it came that way. while it is very very accurate, it is a tad on the bulky side and takes away the nice lines of the gun..kind of like putting a 300lb women in a corvette, |
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Quoted:
I have never owned a FA revolver myself, though I desire to, very badly. Regarding your first question, the one I consider the most pressing, take some time and read this: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=41470 The thread may get very technical at times, but I think you'll find the information you seek in there. I don't like scopes on sixguns (fiveguns). I'll leave it at that. Thanks for the link Vanilla-G. I'm working my way through it now. |
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Quoted: the tollerances are so tight on all f/a revolvers that after two shots the powder residue makes it difficult for the new round to be chambered in the cylinder. requires a bit of a push to seat the round. the 45lc is shorter than the 454 and will cause excessive powder residue and an increase in pressure... i sent my f/a back took about three weeks round trip for them to make me a 45acp cylinder for my 7.5 field grade. speak with John at f/a, great guy. from their site CYLINDERS 794-1501 Additional for Model 83 454 Casull®Revolver .45 Colt. $371.00 794-1504 Additional for Model 83 454 Casull®Revolver .45 ACP $371.00 magtech makes some easy loads for the 454, you can get them from midway or other places. i also have a premier f/a with a leup 2x scope- it came that way. while it is very very accurate, it is a tad on the bulky side and takes away the nice lines of the gun..kind of like putting a 300lb women in a corvette, Thanks 9secondflat. I probably will limit myself to .454 ammo for now, and hold off on the bulky, fat-chick-like scope. As to milder ammo, I had looked on Midway, and the only ones I saw that were under 1200 fpe (essentially a hot .44 Mag), were: * Cor-Bon 240 Grain JHP Muzzle Velocity: 1450 fps Muzzle Energy: 1121 ft. lbs * Federal Fusion 260 Grain JHP Muzzle Velocity: 1350 fps Muzzle Energy: 1050 ft lbs * Winchester Super-X Ammunition 250 Grain JHP Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps Muzzle Energy: 938 ft. lbs The only Magtech ones I saw all looked kind of ouchy: * Magtech 260 Grain Semi-Jacketed Soft Point Muzzle Velocity: 1800 fps Muzzle Energy: 1871 ft. lbs. * Magtech 260 Grain Semi-Jacketed Soft Point Muzzle Velocity: 1800 fps Muzzle Energy: 1871 ft. lbs. * Magtech 240 Grain Semi-Jacketed Soft Point Muzzle Velocity: 1771 fps Muzzle Energy: 1672 ft. lbs. * Magtech 225 Grain Solid Copper Hollow Point Muzzle Velocity: 1640 fps Muzzle Energy: 1344 ft. lbs. Also, the reviews on Midway consistently show people complaining about the Magtech .454 brass sticking in the cylinder after firing. |
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You should not fire 45 Colt in your 454 for the following reasons:
1. The chambers are way tighter on the FA. 2. The transition from the chamber to the throat is abrupt, like a 45 ACP, not gradual like on your 38/357. The bullet will scrape against it as it leaves the case mouth. You'll have lead or copper chavings in your chamber which will further interfere with chambering. Get an accessory cylinder. It is well worth it. |
I have had this gun for close to 10 years now, it still looks good and locks up just like the day I bought it. I used a 335 cast at a little over 1600 fps (32 Grns W 296) for about as long as I could stand it and started working my way down to a tolerable level of recoil, for me this happened at about 1500 fps with the same 335 cast, (28.5 Grn W 296) my gun is a 6" ported and it is quite a bit faster than the 6.5" RB as well as 7.5" SRH I had with identical loads. I use the heavier bullets mainly due to the area I live in but they also reduce wear on the gun. My gun is actually a pretty high mileage gun but shows little wear with minimal erosion or flame cutting. If you use heavier bullets you will be worn out way before the gun is. 
I have loaded 45 Colt to 60K chamber pressures and used them in all my Casulls, however it is best not to do so in the FA due to the design of the chambers and throats. |
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Thanks 918v. I won't fire the .45s, but I might just fire the "anemic" appx. 1000 fpe Winchester and Federal loads. Am I correct in assuming that the FA is strong enough to fire a considerable number of those without loosening up much? Your wrists will go before the FA Casull will. I think John Taffin had to have his wrist-bones fused because he destroyed his cartilage by shooting so many full-house rounds. |
As has been mentioned above your not going to wear that gun out shooting full house loads. I recommend the additional cylinders for the same reasons as above. Yes it can be done but after a few rounds of .45 Colt your going to have to clean the heck out of the .454 cylinder to be able to seat .454 rounds in there. The POI will be pretty different when using different rounds. I have the .454, .45 Colt and .45 ACP cylinders for mine and its rather surprising how far "off" the sights are when you change cylinders. The factory HP loads from Hornady and Winchester are actually not that bad as far as recoil. They sounds pretty painful but the weight of the gun keeps it pretty soft compared to some of the "heavy" loads. My personal favorite elk/ anti bear round is the 320 grain Corbon Flat Point Penetrator. I've found these to have a lot less painful recoil than the 335 grain or 360 grain gas check rounds while offering almost the same performance. A friend of mine who spends several months every year as a cook for an elk camp in Montana swears by the 360 grain loads from Buffalo Bore. Mine is a back up gun so I didn't scope it but if I did I would use the SSK T'SOB mount offered by Freedom Arms. It was specifically designed for the heavy recoiling handguns such as the .45e (and larger). Holsters are a matter of preference. A cross draw is what I use but it prevents me from being able to crawl on my belly and yes that has cost me a few shots at deer in the past. on the other hand its easy to draw from in just about any position unlike a strong side holster. Best advice I can give for holsters is to try several out until you find one you like. I know its sort of avoiding the question but if its not comfortable on your belt you wont carry it and you wont have it when you need it. |
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you wont have a problem with any of the magtech, as for sticking...i dont have an issue on either of my f/a. the nice thing about the design of the f/a is it rolls your wrists back and than your arms, unlike firing a 700 grain out of my s&w 500, this just pounds your palms and raises your arms dam near over your head.
welcome to the sicko club, there are nuts like us who love hard pounding heavy hitting, recoiling guns. the benefit is after shooting a few boxes, anything else you have will feel like your shooting cotton balls. |
| Reload. For the $371 price of a cylinder you could be in .454 heaven with the ability to load whatever you want from .45 ACP velocity to full velocity .454 grizzley killin loads. If you are shooting light loads the brass will last forever, so you will be shooting for the price of the bullet, primer and powder. |
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Thanks for the info guys. I may order some of the lighter loads for just shooting practice. Also, I thought the Cor-Bon 320 grain Flat Nose Penetrator (1550 fps/1708 fpe) you mentioned sounds like a pretty fearsome load for tough critters. Right now, the only loads I can find locally are the 260 grain Magtech, and the 300 grain Speer Gold Dot JHP (1625 fps; 1758 fpe). The Speer too looks pretty formidable on paper. The Magtech puts the 260 grain load down range at 1800 fps and 1871 fpe. It hurts just thinking about it. Because I'm not patient enough, I will probably shoot a few of both over the weekend at the NRA range. I will just grip forcefully in an icosceles stance and lock my left thumb over the right one and pray. I'm sure the guys in the booths next to me will be, at least briefly, annoyed.
I would get a cross draw holster if I could find one that fits a 2 inch belt. I doubt I will get into reloading, at least until I retire. I have too much work to do and two small boys. If I took the time to reload right now, it would cost me more in time lost at work than i would recover in ammo savings. I would like to reload just for the sake of doing it, but I'm a little overloaded right now, and I'm afraid I would do something like the guy in the Smith Airweight thread and blow my guns apart. |
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Your not going to find anything loaded from a commercial loading company that begins to approach the 60K chamber pressures your F/A was designed to easily handle.
When time ran out on F/As exclusive rights to the 454 Casull and all ammunition for it the SRH and the RB showed up almost overnight and the folks who loaded for the 454 Casull toned down the ammunition to function in all 454 Casulls as they were no longer required (under license) to meet F/As standards. You won't get horrendous recoil unless you load it yourself or find some of the older ammunition somewhere. If you just have to know where you can go with the Model 83 32 Grs. W 296 with a 335 cast will show you (I wouldn't put this anywhere except the Model 83 or the Magnum Research Revolver) you may wish to start a little lower and work your way up, the gun will be fine, but you may not care for it. 
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In my 6" ported gun that load puts me a little on each side of 1600 fps in 20 degree temps. A little history on that load, I don't have any idea where it originated and I have never seen it in writing but it is a pretty standard load in this area with the Freedoms Arms guys and has been forever. We do know that 29.0 grains of H110 with a 315 cast goes 1617 fps in a 7" pressure barrel at 59 K psi when loaded in a 45 Colt case so we also know this is an upper end load in the 454 Casull and should be very careful what gun we put it in.
I destroyed one of the D/A Revolvers with this load in just under 200 rounds, in the other D/A I had brass stuck hard (real hard) at 30.5 grains and knew I couldn't get there. Looking back it is probably my fault and there really is no reason to "get there". Any of these guns will get to 1500 fps with a 335 cast which is a very adequate load. I think the 44 mag is a great choice, you can get to 1480 fps with a 340 cast in a 7.5" gun. I mean really how much do you need? 
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What does need have to do with it? 
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I think that Cor-Bon 320 gr flat nose at 1550 fps, the Speer 300 gr at 1625 fps, or the Winchester 260 gr at 1800 is enough manliness for me for now.
Rabon: Double Tap claims it makes your desired load––335 gr flat nose at 1600 fps/1904 fpe. |
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What are the characteristics of factory loads that make them more likely to wear harder on the F/A? Since I don’t know what pressures the mfrs load to, is it higher velocity? Higher bullet weight? Or a combination of both, such as energy?
For example, am I putting more wear on my gun by firing the Magtech 225 Grain loads at 1640 fps (only 1344 fpe) or the slower, but much more powerful, Cor-Bon 320 gr at 1550 fps (1708 fpe)? I suspect the heavier/more powerful load exerts more pressures into the chamber, but the lighter/faster/weaker load wears more on the rifling, but I'm just speculating. |
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I think that Cor-Bon 320 gr flat nose at 1550 fps, the Speer 300 gr at 1625 fps, or the Winchester 260 gr at 1800 is enough manliness for me for now. Rabon: Double Tap claims it makes your desired load––335 gr flat nose at 1600 fps/1904 fpe. If it will go what they claim, I don't want any more of them.
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If you attempt to wear-out your FA, you will end-up paying tenfold to an orthopedic surgeon.
Don't worry about this shit. The barrel is replacable. You can't break the frame. You just can't. Just keep the gun well lubed and you will never wear it out. The first 454 is still going strong, after 40 years of heavy use. |
| I agree with 918v there is no way your going to wear a Model 83 out shooting factory ammo. The only way to do that would be through handloading and then you'd have to load the thing to max pressure and shoot it often. In other words you'd be trying to break the thing. |
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Thanks for all the advice guys.
I went to shoot this beast yesterday at the NRA (just a few minutes away), but aborted due to a 2-hour wait that would have impermissibly interfered with my fathering duties. I will try again tomorrow morning and shoot if the line is not horrendous. I will shoot the Magtech 260gr/1805 fps rounds and the Speer 300gr/1625 fps rounds, as that is all I can find in NOVA. I will just suck it up and fire the full house ones from the beginning. So far, based in part on your advice, I have learned a lot about this new-to-me hand-cannon concept, and: * Concluded that I need not worry about wearing out the gun with faster rounds. I think I misinterpreted Rabon’s comment above (“If you use heavier bullets you will be worn out way before the gun is”) to mean that lighter/faster bullets might wear out the gun quicker, even though that’s probably not what he meant. * Ordered a couple of holsters (one Hunter 1100, and one Triple K western holster). * Decided not to shoot the 45 LC in it. * Decided not to scope it. Follow up questions: * Right now, I am ordering the 320 gr Cor-Bon Flat Nose; more of the 300 gr Speer loads, and some of the Winchester 260 gr partition loads. They are all similar in energy (all between 1750 and 1870 fpe). I like the concept of each on paper within their weight classes and want to try them out. Which is likely to recoil less? Meaning that, in the F/A, will the lighter bullets going faster recoil more than bigger bullets going slower when both rounds put out roughly the same energy? I assume so, because my 12 gauge with magnum slugs recoils more to me than my 300 Win Mag, even though the 300WM puts out more energy, but with a smaller, faster projectile. * Should I port the gun, put a brake on it (like the guy in the RSB thread), or leave it alone? Thanks again everyone. |
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The Winchester 260 gain loads will feel like a plinking load after a few cylinders of the heavier Corbon load. I'm not trying to say the Winchester stuff isn't a powerful load by any means just that the recoil will be substantially less.
Neither my friends .454 (7 1/2" barrel) or my .454 (4 3/4" barrel) are ported so I can not comment on how much it will or will not reduce recoil. Because I bought my FA as a back-up/ woods bumming gun I do not feel ports are necessary but then again my shooting sessions with the .454 are usually limited to a box or less of ammunition every few months or so. |
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As for the porting I have /have had plenty of both its not a big deal to me either way but I would just as soon they are not. If loaded to max pressures recoil of the 454 Casull is rather abrupt (quick and sharp) with any bullet weight, however in my opinion it is much more obnoxious with lighter bullets, also as you reduce bullet weight you increase the powder charge which also increases erosion (the 357 maximum is a rather good example of this). Only you can decide which bullet weight and level of recoil you will be comfortable with, expect to get knocked around a little bit figuring it out.
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Thanks Rabon and Hawkcreek. I will try those three loads. I also ordered the Federal solid copper 250 gr at 1530 fps (only 1299 fpe) to plink around with when I'm really feeling weenie. I had to backorder the Cor-Bon 320 gr from Midway. No one seems to have it in stock. I hope to go tomorrow and try the Speer and Magtech loads.
I don't want to port the gun unless it makes a huge difference. Seriously, you all have been a big help to a novice in the really big more stuff. Thanks. |
| Glad to help. I can't comment on the Speer load but the Magtec 260 grain rounds I shoot are a nice mild load. Its what I give people who are shooting my .454 for the first time. Enough recoil and noise to know its a large gun but not punishing compared to the Corbon or Buffalo Bore loads either. |
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I finally had time to go shoot it, and just shot three rounds of each of:
* Winchester Supreme 260 Grain Partition Gold (1800 fps; 1871 fpe); * Speer Gold Dot 300 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point (1625 fps; 1758 fpe); and * Federal Premium Vital-Shok 250 Grain Barnes XPB Lead-Free (1530 fps; 1300 fpe). (I also back ordered some of the Cor-Bon 320 Grain Flat Nose Penetrator (1600 fps; 1819 fpe), but it has not come in yet.) I didn’t have time to do more (also shot my FS2K; Kel-Tec .380; and sighted in my 700 BDL 300 win Mag for a hunting trip I am taking in a few hours). The lighter Federal rounds, as expected, just felt a little hotter than a hot 44-Mag load. The 260 and 300 grain loads seemed to recoil about the same as each other (probably because the 260 gr load was a little hotter, but also lighter; I assume that the Cor-Bon 320 gr rounds will recaoil more ans it is both hot and heavy). Those definitely make the 454 more interesting to shoot than any other hand gun I’ve shot, but they weren’t all that bad. However, I was a little overly focused on how I could/should grip the gun and handle the recoil. As a result, I didn’t get very good groups (offhand). One thing I learned was that I am glad I got the FA 454, because it’s not that bad to shoot in the grand scheme. Next goal is to learn to shoot tight groups with it. Thanks again to everyone for all of your advice. |
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I still have 4 boxes of factory ammo from Freedom Arms(240grn HP, and 260FN), and 2 factory boxes of mid velocity ammo as well. The hot loads can be rough on the wrist, but the mid velocity ammo is like a pop gun in the Casull. I have a 7.5" field grade with a 1.5 x 4 Nikon/Leupold mount and a Mag-na-port rifle brake.
Scott http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/chondroguy1998/IM001491.jpg |
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I still have 4 boxes of factory ammo from Freedom Arms(240grn HP, and 260FN), and 2 factory boxes of mid velocity ammo as well. The hot loads can be rough on the wrist, but the mid velocity ammo is like a pop gun in the Casull. I have a 7.5" field grade with a 1.5 x 4 Nikon/Leupold mount and a Mag-na-port rifle brake. Scott http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/chondroguy1998/IM001491.jpg Nice! I shot the FA again. This time outside on a friend's farm where I was hunting. It seemed a lot less intimidating shooting it the second time––more confidence. I hit beer cans at 30 yards pretty easy. I'll keep practicins. Also, I carried the F/A deer hunting on Saturday afternoon after I collected one with my 300 Mag. and let the farmer use that the rest of the day. I loaded it with the Speer 300 gr rounds. Unfortunately, I didn't see any more deer. (I guess the word was out on me). I just got in my box of backordered Cor-Bon 320 flat Nose rounds. Those seem like the ones I most enamored with, at least on paper. I can't wait to shoot them. I'll post pics sometime. |
| The 320g Cor-Bon's are awesome rounds but be careful to use the right ammunition for its purpose. A whitetail deer (and no I am not talking shit as a mule deer or elk hunter) doesn't need a heavy solid to bring it down. The Speer HP's you have would be wonderful deer (and probably elk) loads while the Cor-Bon's might be disappointing. By that I mean the Cor-Bon's are designed for penetration (not something you typically need a whole lot of on deer size animals) and not much expansion. |
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The 320g Cor-Bon's are awesome rounds but be careful to use the right ammunition for its purpose. A whitetail deer (and no I am not talking shit as a mule deer or elk hunter) doesn't need a heavy solid to bring it down. The Speer HP's you have would be wonderful deer (and probably elk) loads while the Cor-Bon's might be disappointing. By that I mean the Cor-Bon's are designed for penetration (not something you typically need a whole lot of on deer size animals) and not much expansion. You're probably right. I also think the 1800 fps/1871 fpe Winchester Supreme 260 Grain Partition Gold rounds would be pretty good on deer, and i have a box of those. Alas though, it will be another 10 months or so before I get to go deer hinting. |