I have a 2 inch Colt Lawman MkIII, a S&W M13-3 3 inch and a few 4 inch Mk IIIs and a 4 inch Python.

I have always been cautious about the "flame cutting" 125 grain loads for my old revolvers. I really only carry the M13 from time to time, but I would like atleast a few hundred rounds of quality ammo for these old workhorses.

I have heard good things about the Corbon DPX but it seems hard to find. I don't need blistering .357 mag loads, I can always just load a cylinder full of 158 grain semi was utter mags if I want power. Is the Remington Golden Sabre 125 about my best bet for the 3 inch and 2 inch magnums?

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#mozTocId147912

Except the Gold dot short barrel load is not recommended for barrels longer than 2".  That was their response to me when I asked.  The extra velocity will not help with penetration.  They're designed for snubbies.  You'd  have to email corbon to see what's the deal with them.

Maybe some 158 grain SWC's +p's would be the way to go in the longer barreled guns.  I've seen good reviews on the Golden Saber, but it does have a tenancy to shed it's case.  From the tests I've seen.

Yes, I have heard the Gold Dot SB may have problems with longer barrels. I'd like to pick up some Remington 158 HTP JHPs.

TNoutdoors testing gave it a good look.

Also thinking Hornady Critical Duty may be worth tracking down.

I carry Barnes XPB because Gold Dot SB isn't easy to find up here.

125gr Barnes copper HP bullet going 1200fps out of a 2" barrel.

2" barrel, I'd go with a .38 special 158 gr. SWCHP +P.

This was my first thought, but I haven't been real impressed with the performance out of any of the current "FBI" loads. Most are struggling to hit 775 FPS out of a J frame

I'm a little old school but I hand load 125 gr XTPs on top of a medium burn rate pistol powder.

It'll be controversial as the internet wisdom states that you get maximum velocity in a .357 Magnum with a slow powder, even in a short barrel.  Unfortunately, I've been chrongraphing loads in .357 Mag for 20 years and have never observed that to be the case.  Heavy charges of slow powers produce more recoil, but not more velocity.

8.5 grains of Unique (a half grain under the published max load in one of the earlier Hornady manual editions) gives me an average velocity of 1243 fps in a 3" barrel, compared to an average of 1132 fps with 19.5 gr of Win 296, and the cases drop free.  (They start sticking at 9.0 grains.)

In addition to producing more velocity, a medium speed flake powder like Unique with less than half the mass of a similar 296 load produces less than half the throat erosion, due to less mass flowing through the forcing cone and little or no unburnt powder grains abrading the forcing cone.  The reduced power mass also equates to less recoil, given that the mass of powder exits the barrel at about 3 times the velocity of the bullet and has a disproportionate affect on recoil.

Short story is that if you're shooting a 125 gr bullet in a K-frame, stay away from slow burning colloidal ball powders like Win 296 / H110, and the only slightly less abrasive flattened spherical powders like 2400.

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.357 Magnum is a nice self defense caliber as despite all the rhetoric, it's hard to find a load that doesn't perform acceptably well.

It does take a hit in a short barrel.  For example, a Winchester 158 gr JHP will generate about 1070 fps in a 2 1/8" barrel, 1120 fps in a 3" barrel and 1215 fps in a 4" barrel.

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It's also worth considering a good .38+P load, especially in a 3" barrel. You can get about 1100 fps with a 125 gr bullet in a 4" barrel, and that only drops off to 1030 fps in a 3" barrel, compared to about 950 fps in a 2 1/8" barrel.    Most people can shoot a .38 +P load much better than they can a .357 Magnum, even in a K frame revolver, and it's much more comfortable so they tend to practice with it more.

Good stuff!

I have some unique and some cases, I'll have to whip up some handloads at some point.

Data for Unique in the .357 Mag can be harder to find. mostly because most bullet companies that publish data like to publish newer powders as they become available.

Unique for exemple doesn't to appear in the Hornady manual after the second edition.

There are also some cautions to consider when using older data.

1) The 125 gr HP they used them is not precisely the same as the 125 gr XTP they use now, and differences in core and/or jacket hardness and/or bearing surface can have an impact on pressure.  

2) Pressure measurement is better now than it was then and over the years maximum loads have been both increased and reduced in various editions  For example, with the 125 gr bullet, 2400 has a maximum load of:

14.7 gr in the Hornady 2nd edition (1973) (S&W 27 used for testing);
18.2 gr in the Hornady 3nd edition (1980) (S&W 27 used for testing); and
16.9 gr gr in the Hornady 6th edition (2003) (Colt Python used for testing).

3) In some cases powder burn rates have changed slightly over time for a listed powder.

So stay way from the maximum loads in older manuals, particularly in the Hornady 3rd edition which some people regard as having some overly hot loads.

The Hornady second edition has the following "old" loads for the .357 Magnum using faster powders and it's 125 gr Hollow Point in an 8" S&W 27:

Red Dot
5.9 gr 1000 fps, 6.2 gr 1050 fps, 6.5 gr 1100 fps, 6.8 gr 1150 fps, 7.1 gr 1200 fps, 7.4 gr 1250 fps, 7.7 gr (MAX) 1300 fps.  

Bullseye
5.9 gr 1000 fps, 6.3 gr 1050 fps, 6.6 gr 1100 fps, 7.0 gr 1150 fps, 7.4 gr 1200 fps, 7.7 gr 1250 fps, 8.1 gr (MAX) 1300 fps.

Unique
7.0 gr 1000 fps, 7.3 gr 1050 fps, 7.6 gr 1100 fps, 7.9 gr 1150 fps, 8.2 gr 1200 fps, 8.5 gr 1250 fps, 8.8 gr 1300 fps, 9.1 gr 1350 fps, 9.4 (MAX) 1400 fps.


It's worth noting that I regard 9.0 gr as the max load of Unique that I'm comfortable with a 125 gr XTP, and I actually stay at 8.5 gr as it's just short of the point where cases start to stick in the cylinders.  That's 0.9 gr under the published maximum for Hornady and 1.1 gr under the 9.6 gr maximum Unique load listed in the Speer #14 manual.  

HS-7 still works as well as always and is a fairly forcing cone friendly powder so consider it as well.

The Hornady 6th edition lists the following for HS-7 using the current 125 gr XTP in an 8" Colt Python:

9.6 gr 1250 fps, 10.0 gr 1300 fps, 10.4 gr 1350 fps, 10.8 gr (MAX) 1400 fps.

Thanks! I'll have to track down all my brass and check my powder cabinet. I no longer have a die set for .357, but I have a friend who does...

That is some very good info Dakota, I have always considered anything over 8gr of unique hard on guns, but I really think you have brought up some darn good info. A bud of mine turned me onto Universal for use in short barrel .357's a long time ago, citing some of the same experience, and my results have been the same using the lighter bullets and universal loads in snubs and the .357.

Good useful info, thanks.

I think 8.5 gr of Unique is fine, but as noted I won't go higher, but I'll certainly look into Universal as well.

In the data posted above it's listed in ben rate order - Red Dot, Bullseye and Unique, and the 8.5 gr load is in line with the one step below max Red Dot and Bullseye loads, and all produce the same velocity.

I suspect Unique got a bit of a bad rap in the .357 given some of the hot loads in the Hornady 3rd edition (not just in .357 Mag, or just with Unique - the lots of upper end loads in that edition are pretty warm), and the old school hand loaders tend to have long memories.

My dad just picked up a 3" Model 60 so I got him some Hornady Critical Duty 135Gr FTX rounds for it.  Unfortunately he hasn't shot it yet, so I can't give you any feedback on it, but the research made it seem like a good choice.

The terminal ballistics are fine - and as stated above it's hard to find a bad .357 hollow point or soft point load for self defense.

However, your dad may find that firing .357 Mag in a J Magnum frame revolver to be a bit of a handful.   Most folks who carry .357 Mag self defense loads in a J-Magnum revolver don't actually shoot it much and that's a liability as shot placement matters more than the actual terminal performance of the bullet.  In other words even the best performing pistol load will fail to stop an assailant if you don't hit the assailant in a vital area.

I shoot snub nosed revolvers, including J, J magnum frame and SP 101 revolvers, more than most folks and I am not particularly recoil sensitive, but I prefer a .38 +P load in a J frame sized revolver because I can put 50 rounds through it in a practice session without it being a painful experience.  I've found that provided I am using a +P load with a muzzle velocity around 1000 fps, a 125 gr XTP will give reliable expansion and at least 12" penetration and that's do-able in a 3" barrel at +P pressures.

The Speer Gold dots also work well in a short barrel with a .38+P load.  Both the 135 gr bullet at a velocity of at least 850 fps and the 125 gr bullet at a velocity of at least 900 fps will get the job done and that should not be a problem in a 3" Model 60.

Thanks for that response, I agree absolutely about shot placement, and if the 357 rounds appear to be too much to shoot accurately, I have a few boxes of  Speer 38 +p short barrel gold dots to try as well.

The .38 short barrel load should be fine with a 4 inch barrel.  Speer loads the same bullet in their .357 SBGD that is slightly hotter(+130 fps in 2 inch barrel) than the .38.

Something in 158gr.

195.gr Win296 with a 125 ???

try 22gr.

for max velocity in magnum revolvers, it's hard to beat H-110/win296, provided, you work up max loads, magnum primers, and a FIRM ROLL CRIMP

H110/w296 is not a good choice for reduced loads.


22gr win296 125grXTP gets me 1639fps ( 5" 686 )

I Love UNIQUE for medium loads, but H110/w296 is king.

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