Posted: 12/21/2010 10:02:58 PM EDT
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It has been a long time since I did it but I seem to remember that the "classic" Keith load was 21 grains of 2400 powder over a 240-250 grain bullet in .44 Mag. Back in my 20's I shot lots of them and I remember about 10% with flattened primers, but otherwise no signs of excessive pressure. They ALL thumped my palm nicely, though (out of a 6" tube). Fast-forward 25 years later and I now have a 4" 29-2 that I CCW. I shot a half box of so-called "police loads" (240 grain loads from a gun show) and there wasn't any "slap" to the palm like the classic Keith load. It kicks, but not on the order of the old load. I would expect ANY 240-grain load to really torque my wrist out of a 4" barrel.
Can anyone concur that my memory of the "Keith load" is accurate? The current Speer #14 lists 20 grains as max with their 250 grain lead hard cast SWC, and says 21 grains for their 240 grain jacketed lineup, while their older #12 manual only goes to 17.7 grains max!! Their oldest #10 manual I was using back in my 20's (the early to mid-80's) goes all the way to 22.2 grains for 2400 powder!! DAYUM!! 
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I belive that the Keith Load is 22gr of 2400, but 21gr is more than enough, and is what I use. I think it was under a 240gr lead SWC. I shot a deer with this load a few years ago, and it dropped it in its tracks. It is also extremely acurate out of my 6inch 629. |
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Elmer Keith's true .44 Magnum load was 22 grains of 2400 and a 250 grain semi wadcutter of his own design. Out of my mould, the Keith bullet drops ready to load at 26 grains, lube and all. With 21 grains of 2400m this load will easily break 1300 fps from my 6 inch 29-4, and 22 grains edges up on 1400 fps. I am quite happy with 21 grains, and have never seen a flattened primer with that load. With 22 grains, I have seen a slightly flattened primer, but nothing bad. Now a word of advice: I've seen these loads shoot a 29-3 silly loose with less than a thousand rounds. I'd suggest either being frugal with these loads, or get to know the S&W factory guys well. |
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Quoted: The original load back then was 22 grains of 2400 but with new 2400 that you'd buy today the load is 20 grains . The manufacturer has tweaked 2400 since Keith's days so 20 grains will give you the same velocity as the old 22 grains . Do you have documentation of this? Brian Pearce created loads using several different lots of old and new production 2400 and found all specs were within lot to lot variations allowed by the manufacturer. |
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The original load back then was 22 grains of 2400 but with new 2400 that you'd buy today the load is 20 grains . The manufacturer has tweaked 2400 since Keith's days so 20 grains will give you the same velocity as the old 22 grains . Do you have documentation of this? Brian Pearce created loads using several different lots of old and new production 2400 and found all specs were within lot to lot variations allowed by the manufacturer. This story goes back and forth every now and then. I remember an article sometime within the past 10 years or so, addressing this same issue. At that time, I believe it was 20.5gr of 2400 gave the same velocity as Elmer Keith achieved out of his 6.5" M29. It doesn't really matter to me. I don't hunt with a handgun, so when I do shoot the .44mag, I load up 10.0gr of Unique over a Lyman 429421. I'm thinking about going back to Mr, Keith's most commonly used load of 8.5gr of Unique over his 245gr bullet. From what most report, Mr. Keith shot very few Magnum loads, usually sticking to his 8.5gr of Unique load. Maybe I'm just getting old, but I shoot more .44spl than mags anyway. |
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Quoted:
It has been a long time since I did it but I seem to remember that the "classic" Keith load was 21 grains of 2400 powder over a 240-250 grain bullet in .44 Mag. Back in my 20's I shot lots of them and I remember about 10% with flattened primers, but otherwise no signs of excessive pressure. They ALL thumped my palm nicely, though (out of a 6" tube). Fast-forward 25 years later and I now have a 4" 29-2 that I CCW. I shot a half box of so-called "police loads" (240 grain loads from a gun show) and there wasn't any "slap" to the palm like the classic Keith load. It kicks, but not on the order of the old load. I would expect ANY 240-grain load to really torque my wrist out of a 4" barrel. Can anyone concur that my memory of the "Keith load" is accurate? The current Speer #14 lists 20 grains as max with their 250 grain lead hard cast SWC, and says 21 grains for their 240 grain jacketed lineup, while their older #12 manual only goes to 17.7 grains max!! Their oldest #10 manual I was using back in my 20's (the early to mid-80's) goes all the way to 22.2 grains for 2400 powder!! DAYUM!!
I would buy and use he latest revision of loading manuals and NOT use "old" manuals. I've heard that the powder mfg'rs have changed the formulas enough to justify not trusting the old manuals. You can always get data from the powder mfgr's website and print it out. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
It has been a long time since I did it but I seem to remember that the "classic" Keith load was 21 grains of 2400 powder over a 240-250 grain bullet in .44 Mag. Back in my 20's I shot lots of them and I remember about 10% with flattened primers, but otherwise no signs of excessive pressure. They ALL thumped my palm nicely, though (out of a 6" tube). Fast-forward 25 years later and I now have a 4" 29-2 that I CCW. I shot a half box of so-called "police loads" (240 grain loads from a gun show) and there wasn't any "slap" to the palm like the classic Keith load. It kicks, but not on the order of the old load. I would expect ANY 240-grain load to really torque my wrist out of a 4" barrel. Can anyone concur that my memory of the "Keith load" is accurate? The current Speer #14 lists 20 grains as max with their 250 grain lead hard cast SWC, and says 21 grains for their 240 grain jacketed lineup, while their older #12 manual only goes to 17.7 grains max!! Their oldest #10 manual I was using back in my 20's (the early to mid-80's) goes all the way to 22.2 grains for 2400 powder!! DAYUM!!
I would buy and use he latest revision of loading manuals and NOT use "old" manuals. I've heard that the powder mfg'rs have changed the formulas enough to justify not trusting the old manuals. You can always get data from the powder mfgr's website and print it out. Not meaning to sound smug or smartass, but I am already WELL aware of all this (as an experienced shooter/ reloader for about 35 years!) and I was merely pointing out for discussions' sake the glaring differences over the years. Thing is, I still have some of my old 2400 powder left! 
21 grains here I come!!! 
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Quoted:
Thanks to all for the fine answers and discussion. Anyone care to ponder why the Speer #12 manual was SO anemic with their max of 2400 at 17.7 grains? I'd say it was a lawyer load, except #14 is back where it ought to be. Go figure!  You need to go back a couple of editions to a non sucky manual. Speer #8. All velocities are out of a 6.5'' 29, not a pressure barrel. 1830 FPS with a 180 JSP 
Those Keith loads got a bit of thump to them. Transforming my fairly tight brand new 29-3 into a 29-3 complete with off timing and endshake within a thousand rounds was interesting. I seem to remember going up to 23.5 grains once in my Blackhawk and they were.. stout. There's no need to download Keith's load in the interest of pressure, it will take a lot more than 22 grains of 2400 to cause issues. I seem to recall one of the revolver writers going all the way up to 28 grains of 2400 under a 240 jacketed (more pressure than the lead) in a Blackhawk without any undue consequences. |
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I've always been partial to 10.5 of Unique topped off with a 230 gr, Keith SWC.
Back in the day when semi-autos were rarely seen on a duty belt, it was used for duty and the range. (Yes, back in those days, it wasn't unusual for a department that allowed you to carry a 29/629 to allow you to carry your own handloads as well. This was also the time when officers carrying .357s would go to the range and qualify with .38 sp, and feel good about the group they shot. When I'd step up to the line, with my 10.5 grain loads, I remember some of the officers complaining that my use of the heavier rounds would lower their qualification scores.
(Sorry, if I got a little off topic.) |
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Back in the mid to late 70's I started shooting handgun sillhouette and used an 8 3/8" M-29-2 with 245 gr #429421 Keith SWC's over 22.0 of 2400 in new WW or RP .44 mag cases. I shot that gun loose within 600-700 rds. Sent it in and had it repaired...moved to a TC Contender and a 10" bbl.
By comparison I've also shot THOUSANDS of the same bullet over 8.5-10.0 of Unique and never an issue. The 29's back then couldn't stand a STEADY diet of full power loads. I think the loads have moved down a bit in pressure not only to make the LAWYERS happy but to keep pistols up and running longer. I can recall BLUE DOT data being dropped down as well from the 70's to the 80's. FN in MT |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks to all for the fine answers and discussion. Anyone care to ponder why the Speer #12 manual was SO anemic with their max of 2400 at 17.7 grains? I'd say it was a lawyer load, except #14 is back where it ought to be. Go figure! You need to go back a couple of editions to a non sucky manual. Speer #8. All velocities are out of a 6.5'' 29, not a pressure barrel. 1830 FPS with a 180 JSP
http://www.bbhfarm.com/albums/album10/aag.jpg http://www.bbhfarm.com/albums/album10/aaf.jpg Those Keith loads got a bit of thump to them. Transforming my fairly tight brand new 29-3 into a 29-3 complete with off timing and endshake within a thousand rounds was interesting. I seem to remember going up to 23.5 grains once in my Blackhawk and they were.. stout. There's no need to download Keith's load in the interest of pressure, it will take a lot more than 22 grains of 2400 to cause issues. I seem to recall one of the revolver writers going all the way up to 28 grains of 2400 under a 240 jacketed (more pressure than the lead) in a Blackhawk without any undue consequences. That's impressive. My buddy has a load he uses in his Dan wesson that will break 1800fps with 29gr of h-110 and a 180gr bullet easily. His is an 8-3/8" barrel, though. Thing is a d**n rocket ship. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks to all for the fine answers and discussion. Anyone care to ponder why the Speer #12 manual was SO anemic with their max of 2400 at 17.7 grains? I'd say it was a lawyer load, except #14 is back where it ought to be. Go figure! You need to go back a couple of editions to a non sucky manual. Speer #8. All velocities are out of a 6.5'' 29, not a pressure barrel. 1830 FPS with a 180 JSP
http://www.bbhfarm.com/albums/album10/aag.jpg http://www.bbhfarm.com/albums/album10/aaf.jpg Those Keith loads got a bit of thump to them. Transforming my fairly tight brand new 29-3 into a 29-3 complete with off timing and endshake within a thousand rounds was interesting. I seem to remember going up to 23.5 grains once in my Blackhawk and they were.. stout. There's no need to download Keith's load in the interest of pressure, it will take a lot more than 22 grains of 2400 to cause issues. I seem to recall one of the revolver writers going all the way up to 28 grains of 2400 under a 240 jacketed (more pressure than the lead) in a Blackhawk without any undue consequences. That's impressive. My buddy has a load he uses in his Dan wesson that will break 1800fps with 29gr of h-110 and a 180gr bullet easily. His is an 8-3/8" barrel, though. Thing is a d**n rocket ship. Have you tried shooting those?? Hmmmm, I think I might have a can of 110 somewhere........
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