[ARCHIVED THREAD] - LCR Kaboom (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/24/2010 5:27:15 PM EDT
|
Posted by Matt Lewis over at at LMS DEFENSE
I was conducting a Concealed Carry Handgun class on 1 May 2010. There was a student training with a Ruger LCR that she stated had less than 100 rounds previously fired through it. She was using CCI Blazer 158 grain TMJ +P ammunition, and had fired approximately 25 rounds so far in the course without any cause for concern. The student was in the middle of firing a two round engagement drill under my supervision; she fired one round then informed me that she thought her trigger was “stuck”. I took the firearm from her, assuming that she had possibly taken the cylinder out of battery, and attempted to put the cylinder back into battery. Upon looking, I noticed that part of the frame subassembly (the barrel sheath portion) was blown off, and the barrel split. I checked to see if the cylinder was stable, and the cylinder turned slightly in my hand before apparently being bound by the split barrel. I was able to clear the weapon, at which point we removed it from the firing line and inspected shooters for injuries. As there were no injuries resulting from this failure, we examined the firearm and replaced it on the firing line with one of my revolvers a S&W J Frame that performed flawlessly), so she could continue training. In my opinion, this was most likely not a shooter or ammunition-induced failure. I checked the owner’s manual to ensure that this firearm was rated for +P ammunition, which it is. The cylinder and topstrap show no visible damage; neither does the right side of the firearm. It appears that the chamber was not properly aligned with the bore when the round fired, and that the bullet struck the forcing cone out of alignment. The bullet most likely took the path of least resistance, leading to the catastrophic failure of the barrel and frame subassembly. I have spoken with the VP of Ruger, as well as sending a letter to him concerning this failure; he seemed to be very interested and understanding of our concerns. I found this on another board and I'm posting this here to warn those who own LCR's of the possibility of damage or injury.- IKH |
|
If the shooter was using Blazer aluminum cased ammo that is the whole problem. The Aluminum cases cannot be crimped like a brass case.
Loading the revolver with 6 rounds puts this issue into motion. everytime the trigger is pulled the bullets in the case can move due to recoil shock. As you get closer to the last rounds the bullets have moved in the case. When you are come up on number 5 or 6 the bullet can protrude from the case enough so that it will prevent the cylinder from indexing in the proper location. The tip of the round can stop the cylinder but it can still have moved far enough to expose enough of the primer to strike. The round goes off but not down the barrel. I have seen this with 44's up to 460's The LCR is light enough I believe this is what happened. I would never use the Aluminum crap in a revolver after some of the KB's I have seen from it. |
|
For those that didn't read ALL of the original quote I'll put it here again, in BOLD.
It appears that the chamber was not properly aligned with the bore when the round fired, and that the bullet struck the forcing cone out of alignment. The bullet most likely took the path of least resistance, leading to the catastrophic failure of the barrel and frame subassembly.
The CHAMBER/CYLINDER appears to be the issue here. Not ammo. |
| Still wonder if the ammo being aluminum cased and +p (aluminum ammo is not crimped) is not the guilty one. Maybe the recoil of the previous rounds could cause bullet set-back and overpressure, messing up the LCR timming. It sounds wierd that a revolver that was shooting normally all of a sudden gets its cylinder out of time. |
|
I have spoken with the VP of Ruger, as well as sending a letter to him concerning this failure; he seemed to be very interested and understanding of our concerns.
Ruger will make it right. Unlike some companies Ruger will issue a recall if needed without second thought. |
|
If we could see a picture of the brass, maybe it would tell if the cylinder was misaligned. If the primer strike is off center, then the cylinder was likely out of time. Am I right?
EDIT: I see the 2 aluminum cases in the picture. If those are the two that were fired, it looks like the cylinder was timed right. |
|
Quoted:
Since she was firing two rounds, could it be the case, that the first round was a squib load and the second actually blew up the barrel? Also I don't trust a lot in aluminum cases - and much less in +P loads in such cases. Sounds like a squib caused this to me, too, particulary if the rounds shown are an indicator of how well in time the piece was. If it was a squib, then the gun held up remarkably well –– no major injuries. |
|
Quoted: For those that didn't read ALL of the original quote I'll put it here again, in BOLD. It appears that the chamber was not properly aligned with the bore when the round fired, and that the bullet struck the forcing cone out of alignment. The bullet most likely took the path of least resistance, leading to the catastrophic failure of the barrel and frame subassembly. The CHAMBER/CYLINDER appears to be the issue here. Not ammo. wouldnt the strike on the primer be offset if it was askew? |
|
Quoted:
I have spoken with the VP of Ruger, as well as sending a letter to him concerning this failure; he seemed to be very interested and understanding of our concerns.
Ruger will make it right. Unlike some companies Ruger will issue a recall if needed without second thought. Unfortunately, they've had a lot of practice. 
|
|
Quoted: For those that didn't read ALL of the original quote I'll put it here again, in BOLD. It appears that the chamber was not properly aligned with the bore when the round fired, and that the bullet struck the forcing cone out of alignment. The bullet most likely took the path of least resistance, leading to the catastrophic failure of the barrel and frame subassembly. The CHAMBER/CYLINDER appears to be the issue here. Not ammo. How can you be so sure? You didn't examine the gun or ammo in person, and are going off of something posted on an internet message board. Those are pretty centered primer strikes for the cylinder to be out of time, and how would the cylinder just all of a sudden get out of time to begin with? I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I'm far from convinced this wasn't operator and/or ammo related. |
|
I'll throw another one out there: slow burn primer/round
Doing a double tap, first round doesn't fire, pull the trigger a second time, slow burning round rotates out, second round is fired, first round finally detonates, bullet leaves the cylinder and destroys anything that gets in it's way. Just a theory. If the cylinder rotation is the same as my SP101, it's in the realm of possibility. |
|
Quoted:
Are those Aluminum cases? yes, I'd never shool Aluminum cases in any handgun! I'd place blame on the Ammo not the handgun. But with any product, flaws happen. Not sure why she was using +P's for training, I can see one of two stings, but not for the whole class; if that's what happend. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are those Aluminum cases? yes, I'd never shool Aluminum cases in any handgun! I'd place blame on the Ammo not the handgun. But with any product, flaws happen. Not sure why she was using +P's for training, I can see one of two stings, but not for the whole class; if that's what happend. 1. Is Blazer known to KB a lot? 2. The gun is rated for +P by the manufacturer. Who cares if she's shooting it for the whole class? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
For those that didn't read ALL of the original quote I'll put it here again, in BOLD. It appears that the chamber was not properly aligned with the bore when the round fired, and that the bullet struck the forcing cone out of alignment. The bullet most likely took the path of least resistance, leading to the catastrophic failure of the barrel and frame subassembly.
The CHAMBER/CYLINDER appears to be the issue here. Not ammo. How can you be so sure? You didn't examine the gun or ammo in person, and are going off of something posted on an internet message board. Those are pretty centered primer strikes for the cylinder to be out of time, and how would the cylinder just all of a sudden get out of time to begin with? I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I'm far from convinced this wasn't operator and/or ammo related. You are correct. I was not there. But you weren't there either. I'd question your evaluation of the gun as YOU didn't see it. YOU didn't inspect it. He did. I never said I even saw it. I am simply posting what another board member on another board entirely posted. If you want to bitch and second guess someone go over there, start an account and call that guy a liar. He appears to be a straight forward guy. He appears to know what he's talking about. He apparently is squared enough away to diagnose an issue. I've never met the poster on the other board nor have I ever talked to him. What I'm getting at is your explanation of what might have happened has a maximum effective range of 0 meters. Like most people on this board you truly have no effing idea what you're talking about. I simply posted this without malice so that those of you who have purchased one of these firearms could be educated as to what could occur and use your own judgment as to how to proceed. Calling me or the other guy a liar doesn't make the gun in question put itself back together. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: For those that didn't read ALL of the original quote I'll put it here again, in BOLD. It appears that the chamber was not properly aligned with the bore when the round fired, and that the bullet struck the forcing cone out of alignment. The bullet most likely took the path of least resistance, leading to the catastrophic failure of the barrel and frame subassembly. The CHAMBER/CYLINDER appears to be the issue here. Not ammo. How can you be so sure? You didn't examine the gun or ammo in person, and are going off of something posted on an internet message board. Those are pretty centered primer strikes for the cylinder to be out of time, and how would the cylinder just all of a sudden get out of time to begin with? I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I'm far from convinced this wasn't operator and/or ammo related. You are correct. I was not there. But you weren't there either. I'd question your evaluation of the gun as YOU didn't see it. YOU didn't inspect it. He did. I never said I even saw it. I am simply posting what another board member on another board entirely posted. If you want to bitch and second guess someone go over there, start an account and call that guy a liar. He appears to be a straight forward guy. He appears to know what he's talking about. He apparently is squared enough away to diagnose an issue. I've never met the poster on the other board nor have I ever talked to him. What I'm getting at is your explanation of what might have happened has a maximum effective range of 0 meters. Like most people on this board you truly have no effing idea what you're talking about. I simply posted this without malice so that those of you who have purchased one of these firearms could be educated as to what could occur and use your own judgment as to how to proceed. Calling me a liar doesn't make the gun in question put itself back together. Reading is fundamental. I never said the guy was full of shit. His version of the events may be gospel, or he could be mistaken. If he is indeed mistaken, that doesn't make him a liar, just mistaken. Personally, I'm not convinced he's correct...so what? I definitely do not care enough about this topic to join another board, and call some guy a liar, over a thread on Arfcom.  |
|
Quoted: Are you for fucking real?Quoted: I definitely do not care enough about this topic to join another board, and call some guy a liar, over a thread on Arfcom. Spoken like a true coward. If disagreeing with a guy from the internet makes me a coward in your fucked up world, so be it.  I didn't call anyone a liar, or insult them; I just think that guy could be mistaken about the cause of that failure...that's all. It's right there, in plain text.Do yourself a favor, and seek the help of a mental health professional...seriously. |
|
I love my LCR! Never had any problems with it. (Missing the target is my problem, not the LCR's).
This looks like an ammunition failure to me. Nothing to do with aluminum cases, though. Nor do I believe it to be caused by a bullet jumping crimp. I think its a simple squib load, sticking a bullet in the barrel, and firing another round behind it. Could have happened with any make of wheel gun, and any kind of case material, whether brass, aluminum, or whatever. The gun held up reasonably well. Yes, a solid steel, heavy barrel gun might have held up better, but the gun did OK, the shooter wasn't harmed. If poorly timed rounds caused k-booms, then I would have blown up a dozen different revolvers by now. I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. |
|
Quoted:
I cracked the cylender of my GP100 shooting Blazer. Ruger fixed it for free. Cracking the cylinder on a GP-100 isn't an easy thing to do... Blazers CRAP, Ruger is not. So which would you bet money on being the problem??? (No I wasn't there, heck I can't even read, and yes I'm a total coward... ;) ) |
|
Quoted:
I have spoken with the VP of Ruger, as well as sending a letter to him concerning this failure; he seemed to be very interested and understanding of our concerns.
Ruger will make it right. Unlike some companies Ruger will issue a recall if needed without second thought. This without a doubt. |
|
Quoted:
Seen plenty of threads about problems with Blazer Aluminum in semi-autos with stuck cases and underpowered loads. Aluminum seems to be the wrong choice for ammo no matter what the caliber is. It may be cheap until it breaks your gun. Aluminum may not be the best choice for semi-autos, but last time I looked, my LCR was a wheel-gun. The case had nothing to do with this incident. The frame of the gun had nothing to do with this incident. Poor quality control on the part of the ammunition manufacturer had everything to do with this incident. |
|
I saw some other pics of this gun on another board.
The barrel split wide open at about 6:00 from the forcing cone forward about 3/4 inch, which makes me think the shooter fired a round with a squib in the barrel, splitting it and breaking off pieces of the shroud just like it did. Doesn't matter. New gun, either Speer or Ruger will likely make good on it. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Seen plenty of threads about problems with Blazer Aluminum in semi-autos with stuck cases and underpowered loads. Aluminum seems to be the wrong choice for ammo no matter what the caliber is. It may be cheap until it breaks your gun. Aluminum may not be the best choice for semi-autos, but last time I looked, my LCR was a wheel-gun. The case had nothing to do with this incident. The frame of the gun had nothing to do with this incident. Poor quality control on the part of the ammunition manufacturer had everything to do with this incident. I understand. The fact is Blazer aluminum cased ammo seems to have more problems than their brass ammo and I've read more people shooting it out of semi-autos than revolvers. Blazer in general might have QC issues through-out although I've never had a problem with their brass cased offerings. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Seen plenty of threads about problems with Blazer Aluminum in semi-autos with stuck cases and underpowered loads. Aluminum seems to be the wrong choice for ammo no matter what the caliber is. It may be cheap until it breaks your gun. Aluminum may not be the best choice for semi-autos, but last time I looked, my LCR was a wheel-gun. The case had nothing to do with this incident. The frame of the gun had nothing to do with this incident. Poor quality control on the part of the ammunition manufacturer had everything to do with this incident. +1 Never had anything but trouble with Blazers....not worth it no matter how cheap it may be |