Posted: 5/1/2009 3:35:02 PM EDT
| Just curious. Who has actually had a problem with the Swartz safety? |
| You saw my other post in the 1911 forum, right? My friend's just broke inexplicably last week. It's not a stressed part. For it to come apart like that under general shooting conditions is just ridiculous, in my opinion. I pulled it out, and now he is without a firing pin block, which is the way he likes it. |
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I have a Kimber Pro TLE II/RL with the Swartz safety. The problem with my Swartz safety was that it had been removed by the previous owner. I am not sure what he did, but the rear sight fell out at the range. That is when I found out the safety had been removed.
Kimber fixed it for me for free with no questions and it now has the Swartz safety re-installed. Since the safety was put back in, I have had no problems with it. I can see where some people don't like them, as it does add more parts to the gun and therefore there are more parts to fail. But the majority of pistols now a days have some sort of firing pin block in them, so unless you get a Series 70 style 1911, you are going to be stuck with them. I carried the Kimber on duty for a while, but ended up using my Springfield Armory LW Champion as it was a lot lighter. |
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Keep in mind....that units that actually USE their weapons....have specified the Schwartz be removed due to their testing.
Count me as one who had numerous problems with a Kimber Schwartz safety see my post here complete with pics Kimber Schwartz issues |
| I did read your post. I have a first run Eclipse. I don't know if being a "Custom Shop" model makes it any different but mine seems to be doing fine. I do agree it would be better off without the Swartz. It's just a problem looking for a place to happen. I use a Glock on duty and have other 1911's for off duty carry. But the Kimber is by far the sweetest and most accurate one I've got. |
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I do agree it would be better off without the Swartz. It's just a problem looking for a place to happen. That about sums up my opinion on the Kimber Swartz Safety as well. Those were good enough reasons for me to remove the system from my Custom II, a "target range only" pistol I might add. Once Mr. Swartz was out of the way, I upgraded the MIM firing pin stop, firing pin, and extractor with tool steel parts. I also replaced the stock firing pin spring with a Wolff "extra-power" spring, just in case I ever drop my Kimber onto some concrete!! Even with the Wolff firing pin spring, an ultra lightweight Cylinder and Slide hammer and light hammer spring, my Kimber still fires it all, including S&B ammo, which supposedly has harder-than-normal primers. |
| Did you just remove the block or did you also remove the activating pin from the frame? When I got mine the block was already removed. Now it's back in and I'm debating whether to remove it or not.I don't like the open hole in the slide. I would also use Wolfe extra fp spring and new firing pin. |
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Did you just remove the block or did you also remove the activating pin from the frame? When I got mine the block was already removed. Now it's back in and I'm debating whether to remove it or not.I don't like the open hole in the slide. I would also use Wolfe extra fp spring and new firing pin. I removed the pushrod in the frame as well as the "guts" in the slide. Luckily, my rear sight wasn't a PITA to remove, like I hear they can be. While probably unnecessary for function, I made a spacer to replace the pushrod. It is just a rectangular steel shim, the same thickness as the Swartz pushrod (.065" I believe it was), with a hole to hold it on the sear pin. The hammer doesn't bear against the Swartz pushrod anyway, so the spacer was probably not required. I don't really like the hole in the slide either, but mostly due to "cosmetic" reasons I guess. Having a hole in the slide bothers me less than having the Swartz, which is an unnecessary complication to the 1911. I don't forsee any problems relating to function as a result of the hole being there. |
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While that will certainly work to bypass the function of the Swartz, I didn't like the idea of leaving those now "extra" parts inside the slide.
The Swartz part most likely to break would seem to be the firing pin block, at its very thin midsection. If that broke while using a 70-series firing pin, the firing pin block's lower half should simply fall free of the slide and frame, hopefully not gouging either part and/or causing a malfunction. However, the use of a 70-Series firing pin substantially decreases the odds of the firing pin block breaking in the first place, due to how the pin slides past the block at all times. In spite of this, I still contend that removing all the Swartz components makes sense. My main reasons for removing all the parts are that I have no intention of ever re-activating the Swartz safety, and I don't want any de-activated vestiges of it remaining on my 1911. I feel the Swartz is an overly-complicated mechanism of dubious value, concocted to make lawyers happy. An extra power firing pin spring achieves the same end result. Being that there was no "up" side to its existence, it just had to go. |
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I never had problems, but when I replaced the sights on my Kimbers, I did not reinstall the parts in the slide and I also removed the thingy in the frame when I changed triggers. How exactly did you remove the "thingy in the frame"? It's been a while since I had the whole thing apart but I dont recall seeing an obvious way to remove it. |
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I never had problems, but when I replaced the sights on my Kimbers, I did not reinstall the parts in the slide and I also removed the thingy in the frame when I changed triggers. How exactly did you remove the "thingy in the frame"? It's been a while since I had the whole thing apart but I dont recall seeing an obvious way to remove it. Remove grips, remove MSH, remove thumb safety, tap out pin for grip safety, remove grip safety, tap out pin for hammer, remove hammer, etc, tap out pin for sear and disconnector, shake, sear and disconnector fall out, shake some more, thingy in frame falls out. Reassemble in reverse order with the exception of the thingy in frame. |
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I never had problems, but when I replaced the sights on my Kimbers, I did not reinstall the parts in the slide and I also removed the thingy in the frame when I changed triggers. How exactly did you remove the "thingy in the frame"? It's been a while since I had the whole thing apart but I dont recall seeing an obvious way to remove it. Remove grips, remove MSH, remove thumb safety, tap out pin for grip safety, remove grip safety, tap out pin for hammer, remove hammer, etc, tap out pin for sear and disconnector, shake, sear and disconnector fall out, shake some more, thingy in frame falls out. Reassemble in reverse order with the exception of the thingy in frame. Got it. I just took it all apart and now I see... |
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The one in my '03 Pro Carry HD II was causing the slide to hang up. Sent it in to Kimber, and they said there is no problem, needed more lube and a new recoil spring. Looked like they added more 'ramp' to the FP block.
After another 500 or so rounds, it started doing the same thing. Had to install my Meprolights anyway, so at the same time I pulled all the Swartz stuff out. When I fired it again, no more problems  Never could get Kimber to admit to it as the problem, just that the Pro models have a shorter recoil spring life 
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| The way my hand fits the grip safety doesn't always allow enough movement to activate the swartz safety. I installed a series 70 firing pin in my Kimber Pro Carry II and never had another problem, went bang EVERY time I pulled the trigger. After 2000 + rounds fired there were NO adverse effects with just replacing the firing pin. There were no drag marks, scrapes, wear spots, etc on any of the other parts. It was my carry piece for nearly 5 years until I had to sell it to help pay some medical expenses for my wifes broken hip. I now own a STI Ranger II and it doesn't have a firing pin safety, just the way JMB designed it!!!!!!!!!! |
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FWIW I did a drop test yesterday, straight on the muzzle, and the pistol fired. Case with primer only, no bullet or powder. Will upgrade to extra power firing pin return spring and try again. Yikes! A few questions: Hey, I've got a pro PRO TLE RLII Kimber, besides the legal risk, are there any other reasons not to remove the Schwartz safety? If I have an XP FP spring, will it pass a drop test? And how would it differ from a series 70 if I did remove the Schwartz safety? Also What does the grip safety do without the Schartz mechanism installed? Thanks |
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Kimber doesn't put the firing pin block in the Warrior or the SAS. Colt doesn't use a firing pin block in the series 70 reissue or the 1918 models. Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Nighthawk etc don't use firing pin blocks either. Simply replace your firing pin spring with the same regularity that you replace your recoil spring. If you're really concerned replace your firing pin with a titanium one like Springfield uses. If you're going to be using this for Duty or carrying it off duty on the badge check to see if your department has a no modifications from stock policy on the firearms you use. |
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It's not a stressed part. For it to come apart like that under general shooting conditions is just ridiculous, in my opinion. The problems with the Schwartz safety is people don't know how to properly reassemble their firearm without fucking it up. If you hold down the grip safety while reassembling the slide to the frame, the Schwartz safety can, and often will, be damaged. I have a Tactical Custom II with thousands of rounds through it; no problems associated with the series II safety device. As far as the timing of the Schwartz safety and fully depressing the grip safety, I have never experienced a malfunction due to this. Seriously, folks, if you are not smart enough or strong enough to fully depress the grip safety, maybe you should take up a hobby other than firearms. If you cannot reassemble your pistol without damaging it, maybe you should take up a hobby other than firearms. |
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The problems with the Schwartz safety is people don't know how to properly reassemble their firearm without fucking it up. If you hold down the grip safety while reassembling the slide to the frame, the Schwartz safety can, and often will, be damaged. I have a Tactical Custom II with thousands of rounds through it; no problems associated with the series II safety device.
As far as the timing of the Schwartz safety and fully depressing the grip safety, I have never experienced a malfunction due to this. Seriously, folks, if you are not smart enough or strong enough to fully depress the grip safety, maybe you should take up a hobby other than firearms. If you cannot reassemble your pistol without damaging it, maybe you should take up a hobby other than firearms. Amen to that. I have it in my Custom Crimson Carry II, and I haven't had a single issue with it. As far as reassembling, it's as simple as don't hold the grip safety. And why in anyone's right mind would someone do a drop test with an empty casing, primer only? Sounds like a safety concern to me. |
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A big part of why I removed the Swartz from my Kimber was related to letting my friend fire my Custom II. My friend had two instances of a "click with no bang" when firing a magazine through this pistol. This gent is rather large, and has large "meathook" hands, which may have contributed to this problem. I was rather annoyed that it was possible for this type of malfunction to occur, believing that if the hammer is allowed to fall, the round should fire. This was how I discovered the Swartz timing issue, and the resulting malfunction potential therein. The Swartz safety MUST un-block the firing pin BEFORE the grip safety un-blocks the trigger, otherwise this type of malfunction is a possibility on a Swartz-equipped Kimber. Of course, this type of malfunction cannot occur on a 1911 that doesn't have an operational Swartz safety.
As for the relative safety of drop-testing with a primed empty casing; it is much safer than drop-testing with a live round!  If a primer fires (remember: primer ONLY, no powder or bullet) during a drop-test, you'll hear a bang and maybe smell a little smoke, but that's about all that will happen (unless you're surrounded by flammable gas or liquid!  ).
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Ugh! Timing a series 80 safety sucks as well. Just when you have the right overtravel stop adjustment where you know the sear is well clear of the hammer hooks and half cock notch, with no excess travel, you discover that the stupid series 80 FPB requires a little more trigger travel to prevent possibly binding the firing pin.  |
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It's not a stressed part. For it to come apart like that under general shooting conditions is just ridiculous, in my opinion. The problems with the Schwartz safety is people don't know how to properly reassemble their firearm without fucking it up. +1 Agreed. |