HK was always one of those "overpriced" providers with a reputation of bad customer support, and were never really on my radar.  Well, I ended up with a friend price 2004 made P7M13 with all of 200 rounds through it (full progeny is known), for what he originally paid for it back in the day.  I wasn't sure about it, since the price is still fairly steep (north of 4 figures), and the gun's a little blocky, and the mags are really pricey (only 1 came with it), and it only holds 13 rounds, and they are mechanically complex so it's a matter of time before something breaks.  I don't know...

Bastard sent it home with me, and said think about it.

So... after a week, I decided as an engineer, the engineering on this was just too cool to pass up.  And now own an HK P7M13.  For apparently about half the going rate for these, which is nice.

It's AE stamped, and the stag horn stamp has the little cross on the end, whatever that means.  I think the AE means it was made in 2004, making it a fairly late production model from what I can tell.  The gun was dirty, but it had the little gas system cleaning goodies, which I used and cleaned and lubed it up.  I have the box, and the little sealed envelope with an empty casing in it still, but no manual (he's going to look for that).  I ordered another mag, for $100 (), so I'll have two now.  Not sure if that's really enough, at just 26 (27 I guess) rounds, so might order another.

I guess my question is - I don't know much about these guns.  Any tips for a new owner?  Mechanical things to watch out for?  Things to avoid doing (like is dry firing bad?  Is it harder on the system to release the grip safety, vs pulling the slide back, pull the trigger while the slide is back, and ease the slide forward, and then releasing the grip safety (it's quieter I note, if I do that).  Etc?

Pics, man, pics!

I carried one on duty for 7 years.  Nothing special about the maintenance that is different from other all steel weapons.  Keep it oiled as it will rust easy.  We were taught to always released the slide with the decocker so that's not an issue.  Don't shoot lead ammo or +P and you will be fine.  I assume with the price you paid it won't be seeing tons of range time but the P7 gets hot fast if you run it hard.  Good luck and have fun.  David

Que?

Squeezing the cocking lever releases the slide if it's locked back.

Congrats on picking up one of my holy grail guns.  And if you got a good deal on it, even better.  You chose wisely.

THAT makes sense.  I was wondering where the decocker was.

Forget it...good score

Back in the day a guy in our IPSC/USPSA group shot one regularly.
He shot it a lot and shot it well. Never a hiccup.

What a fine score!

The mags for this gun are... unique.  The strangest double stack I think I've ever seen, with a weird channeling system to turn it into a single stack mag for the top couple rounds.  They are also built like a tank - kind of cool mags, and the design doubtless contributes to it's reputation of good reliability.  They're harder to load too.  Still, a more modern magazine design today is able to stuff a couple more rounds into the same size, which is the trade-off.  

Thing is, this gun you can tell is from another era.  An era where a pistol engagement was expected to be 10 rounds or so, with maybe 1 reload during a lull.  And a 10,000 round service life would take many decades.  Today's 50 rounds in 70 seconds shooting is a different world, where you can go through 10,000 rounds in 2 years easily, and are stuffing 15 mag recharges with ammo in one outing.

The fatter M13 grip really slowed me down, and I almost passed because of it.  But what finally convinced me to stick with it, was the realization that I can pretty much sell this, and finance an M8 - and for all practical purposes, end up with a nearly free M8.   Well, that and my AUG came out of the safe, slapped me upside the head, and said there it needs a reunion ever since that tragic day at the Nakatomi Plaza...

The more I handle it, and mess around with it, the more comfortable it's getting in my hand.  At first, it was a like a 2X4 that I have to squeeze really hard.  But with time, it just fits better and better, and you kind of get used to realizing that once the squeeze cocker is squeezed, you can pretty much let go, and your normal hand hold is enough pressure to keep it cocked.  It's odd - hard to explain.  I'm guessing plated ammo and the new powder coated bullets might not be the ideal choice for this one, so am planning on just sticking with FMJ or JHP loads for it.  One thing though, the chamber support on this gun doesn't look all that great.  If you take the slide off and put a round in the chamber, and look real hard, that lower left area seems to go in a long damned way, before it finally has support in there.  Do P7's have issues related to chamber support?

I sprayed it with oil, and put a little light grease on the barrel exterior.  Since it's pretty much mint condition, I'm loath to do much more to it, but if the blueing ever does wear off, I have routes to malonite the slide and body pretty easy - but that's for a long ways away.

Any particular parts that always seem to break first, that I should start looking to acquire?

Members of the P7 clan know that the silent decocker is the little lever under the trigger guard to the rear. 

I talked to an Instructor/Armorer who was in the office when we ran P7's.  She said the only part that we really had break was the firing pin collar.  LE guns aren't high volume shooters but that was the most common breakage.  David.

That's the "cocking latch"  the part that allows light pressure on the cocking lever to keep the gun cocked, after the initial heavier press to cock it.

Judging by what I've read, the Firing pin bushing is a high breakage part.  I replaced my M8 bushing with a PSP bushing.  Supposedly they hold up better, and you can find them right now.  Most of the usual sources are sold out of M8/M13 bushings.  Also the "drop safety spring", and "trigger return spring" are the other two high wear parts to have around.

No and no.

Others that are quite popular here have also given bad customer support too.

Anyways, congrats on your purchase.

It's also the latch that you depress when you don't want the front strap to release with a loud CLACK. 

There is a difference between PsP and M8 bushings?

The PSP bushing sits flush with the back of the slide, and requires the takedown tool (or similar) to remove/install.   I bought the combination tool/scraper from hkaprts, since the originals are hard to find, and expensive.  The M8/M13 bushings stick out a little, and can be removed with your thumb.  I don't know if it's a fact, but I've read the PSP bushings don't break near as often as the M series.  Everyone is sold out of M bushings, but the PSP ones are still pretty easy to find.

I've been told not to clean the gas piston with anything abrasive, it will wear the rings on the piston.  I've also heard not to use the scraper on the gas cylinder, use the  brush/solvent only.  The finish is pretty thin, they apparently rust pretty easily, and kydex supposedly wears them pretty bad.  I'm probably going to get mine done in black T at some point.  Another thing I remember from the park cities tactical days, was people reported refinished guns broke parts more often.

HK still supports the P7's, but the parts seem to show up in batches, and when they sell out, it's a while before they show up again.

I've owned mine for a decade now, it is probably one of the last guns I would ever get rid of.  I've never broken anything on mine, but I guess I should look into getting some replacement parts before they become harder to find. Hope you enjoy yours.

You guys have me jonesing for an M13 now.  They are just too big for my midget hands though.

I had to have a set of Nill grips for my M8, I love they way they look on the P series guns, however it widens the grip some, and I don't care for how the feel in my hands  And they are pretty fragile, if I decide to carry it any, I'll go back to the stock grips.

My poor attempt at a glamour shot.

Cheers!! Attached File

The progenitor to the P7M13.

Pics were requested.  So here you go.  


The first one shows the package:


The second one shows the kind of goofy magazine design.  But, it does work quite well.  And to be honest, if you're in a personal defense gun-fight that takes more than 13 rounds, things have gone from wrong, to very wrong.



And finally, kind of an artisticish shot:


This one is a Sterling VA import.  There's something about "sterling" on the side of the gun that is kind of neat...

When the Russians went to enlarge the magazine for the US market they ran into the same issues as HK did.  Neither manufacturer wanted to completely redesign their pistols, so the magazine had to narrow to a single stack well before most other double stack pistol mags do.  The same thing has been proposed for HighTower's bullpup stock for the HiPoint carbines, for the same reasons.  It's not a question of modernity - it's not having to redesign the top of the frame, and all the associated parts.  I'm interested in seeing the .40" S&W mags now, as my impression was that HK beefed up the frame for the .40" S&W.

Interested to find out the source for the caution against the use of +P ammo???

Awesome gun.

Good thing you only have 2 mags.

It just might make you give it a rest at the range.

The top of the triggerguard gets burning hot really fast.

Armorer class.  I'll see if I can find the manual at work.  David

Went and looked @ pics of the P7M10 - the .40" S&W.  Looks like they completely redesigned the pistol, and the mags.  The bbl sits very low in the slide.  If you lined the bbl - rather difficult in a gas operated weapon - you could probably get more than 13 rounds in that mag.

ETA:  Reading this page:

http://hkp7.com/p7m13.htm, it would seem the above is completely wrong.

Thanks; my understanding is that the piston in the P7 compensates for the various pressures a given round creates...  the greater the pressure (a la +P), the greater the recoil retardation.

Shot it this weekend - put 200 rounds through it, in 2 days (I guess that means it has 400 on it now).  Wow, amazing gun - just amazing.  This is just a better gun concept.

For accuracy testing, I just did some freehand shooting at NRA 50' targets (at 50 feet).  I'm a good pistol shot, but I'm not a great pistol shot, and that showed.  Still, I shot it better than I do my P99, which I've put many thousands of rounds through, and had some great field-level accuracy results with.  Odd that I was able to outshoot such a well-grooved gun, right away, with the P7.  But the P7 just wants to point and shoot, and has a really great trigger.

I did 3 10 shots strings, with 2 different types of ammo: 124 gr JHP warm reloads, and 115 gr trash ball weak reloads with super cheap bullets.   Interesting findings.

The P7 outshot the P99 on average with both ammo tested (1.5" mean-radius (i.e. average distance of a shot from the center of the grou) with P7, vs 2.4" with the P99).  Further, the P7 was notably more accurate than the P99 with the very low quality ammo.  And finally, the point of impact between the two ammo is different, when firing in the P99 which has a barrel that moves.  But in the P7, both ammo loads hit the same place, regardless.

What a great little gun

I will say, it does heat up as warned.  One can go all day if using a fairly leasurely pace, and alternating in another pistol.  But if just working the P7, it starts to notably warm up after 2 mags.  A 3rd mag, and the heat levels are enough to affect how you hold and shoot the gun, which probably isn't good.

I also did some action shooting, and was amazed.  Since it is short, and ass heavy, you can change where you are pointing it very quickly.  The recoil is ... hard to describe, but it's a faster recoil.  More of a pop, and back on.  Where a more standard pistol is a longer and more involved recoil, with the gun maybe or maybe not returning to the same point of aim.  The P7 is a very fast, yet soft, recoil, with the gun returning to and pointing at exactly where you just shot - very quickly.  Speed shooting center and head shots on multiple IDPA targets was crazy accurate with the P7, with almost all the shots right where you wanted them to go, regardless of how carefully aimed - better than any other pistols I have.

The reload is quite cool.  The mag drop is.. OK.  To be honest, I prefer my P99 paddles for mag drop, though the P7 is a sort of a short-paddle.  But being an M13, you have to reach a little to hit the release.  But the reinseration, and slide release is just super fast and cool.

Sigh, I easily could have made 4 figures just selling this.  Instead, not only will I likely not sell it, but now I want a P7M8 to go with this, as a CCW piece!

Beautiful pistol...this is my grail gun.  

the only thing I didn't like, was it seems to spit crap in my face.  maybe that's due to the chamber flutes,  not sure, but eye-pro is a must with this one.

Is that normal?

Picked up a couple more mags (wowza), and figured I will try a couple action shoots with it.  Any suggestions on holsters for this?

Holsters can be problematic, most of the big name companies don't catalog P7 holsters anymore.  Mat Del Fatti is the man for P7 leather, but he hasn't taken orders for some time, and runs around two years.  I've been quoted anywhere from 18-30 weeks from most of the custom holster makers I've talked to for my M8.

The M13 (and M8 to a lesser extent) can be difficult to carry, because of the short slide, and the heavy grip.

Off the grid concepts makes a kydex OWB holster for the P7, if you don't care about possibly roughing up the finish.  I've got some of their holsters for my other HK's they are GTG.  They told me they have the blue guns, but no magazine molds, so I would have to send them a magazine to use ( returned when they are done) if I wanted a mag carrier.

I ordered a Ritchie CQ-QR from Lightning Arms Sports to use while I decide what I'm going to do about holsters.  Ritchie used to work with Lou Alessi, and it's his version of the Alessi CQC-S holster.  It works well so far.  They are on sale right now, I had mine in two days.

Lightning Arms sports

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I've got a variety of holsters for my P7s, the Alessi Bodyguard and CQC/S are excellent, as is the Del-Fatti I won in a contest.  The VM-II is also great.









Look at that group! 25 meters!

"Pixa" has a ton of time behind a P7 trigger.

Here he is already in 1978.

Wow.  I heard they were accurate, but wow.

Yep, I've never pulled off a 25 meter target that good, but "Pixa" has a lot of experience (a regular "lethal weapon" I'm sure).
However, I have found both my M13 and M8 to be superbly accurate, and particularly good at rapid fire.

I'm bad at shooting groups but shooting a P7 back to back with my inaccurate early model M&P9 restored a lot of faith in myself. That gun made me look good.

It seems like something else may have changed.  When I take out the bushing on the back of the M13, I get a 1" long part, which is basically a sleave with some special cuts in it for stuff.  The PSP bushing is just a little ring of metal, with no length to it, and there's functionality to the M13 part that the PSP bushing clearly doesn't have.  So I'm confused by all this.  What part do people say breaks - is the it the thin sleeve material that controls the firing pin, or is it just the simple little round part at the end?  And if I replace my M13 with just that round Bushing from the PSP, don't I need the rest of the sleeve too, for the thing to work?

P7M13 bushing:

What I got when I ordered the PSP bushing, was just the round ass on the back of the above part.

That doesn't sound right.  The PSP bushing pretty much looks like the M series bushing, minus the chamfered part that sticks out the back of the side.

PSP bushing on the left, M series on the right.  The biggest difference I can see (besides the shorter collar that sits flush with the slide, requiring the tool for removal) is there seems to be more material in the locking lug/ring that holds it in the slide.  Not sure exactly where they fail, but I'd bet in there someplace.

Some of the various bushings:

P7A13, P7A10, P7M7, Mod. PSP, Mod. PSP, P7K3

I really just want to say fuck all of you! I'm SO jealous!

I'm really kicking myself in the ass for not buying a P7 PSP when they were all over for like $600'ish. Not the M13 I want but it would have been "good enough" for me. Knowing what they costed when they showed up on the scene, I don't feel like over paying now. I would never spend what a P7 M13 costs either!

So jealous, so jealous. Nice HK's guys, really nice! I guess I'll have to make due with my HK P30, P30L, P2000 and HK 45CT. OH I've got a HK USC to UMP conversion too which was a small fortune but that's a little different than a pistol.

I'm going to go cry myself to sleep now.

Thanks for this, apparently I fouled up and ordered firing pin collars, rather than firing pin bushings.  I'm not sure what the collar even is, but at $6 a pop, I ordered 2 of them.



Alas, apparently that's not what I should have inventoried.  From what people say, it sounds like it's the sleeve that breaks (when something breaks - not implying this happens a lot).  Is that right?  Those go for juuuust  touch more than $6 a pop..

Don't be so lazy!  

I will take it if you don't it OP ;)  Congrats

Late to the party, but you might want to look into TT gunleather for a holster too.  He's slowed up since he lost his farm in the Cali wildfires a year or so ago, but he's working on getting back up to speed.

I ordered a Mike's special for my M8 from him two weeks ago.  When I ordered, the site said four weeks.  We'll see how long it takes.

3/8/2017  Shot 50 rounds of 124 gr JHP (Precision Delta over AA #5 powder).



Pistol shot great.  No jams or failures.  Accuracy was pretty good:

Not bad for 5 shots at 50'.

Went over the steel plate section and was able to get a very high hit percentage on those.  This gun just likes to point and shoot.  Heat wasn't an issue, but I kept the pace down.  These aren't the easiest magazines in the world to charge up, and slowing down to pull targets and such keeps it under control.

One annoyance - the gun spits debris in my face very 5 rounds or so.  And not gently - a mild stinging even.  Failure to wear eye-protection with this pistol would be a regrettable choice I suspect.  Is this normal?

Still haven't picked up a holster yet.  I'm not sure I want to invest in a $100 super great holster.  Really, I'm more interested in a bare-bones holster that could pass muster for an IDPA usage.

Rounds shot through this gun since I got it is probably around 450 rounds.  In it's total life, I'd say 650 rounds.

And since you guys love photos.  I present to you, the Nakatomi Plaza fun-pack:

Nice!

I really miss my AUG.  Handles so much better than the Tavor.