Posted: 7/21/2012 3:54:11 PM EDT
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Looking to purchase an HK in the near future and have been trying to understand the differences. I've only had the opportunity to fire a friends DA/SA P30S. Don't know anyone with a LEM version and no rentals around that I've been able to find.
What puzzles me isn't how the different actions work, but in how they change the physical operation of the pistol by the shooter, and in what is considered a safe way to carry the pistol. For a LEM you insert the magazine and cycle the slide. Now, assuming you are using the light LEM, you have a trigger pull of approx 4.5 lbs with no manual safety. 2nd strike capability is with a full 11.5 lb trigger pull. For DA/SA you insert the magazine and cycle the slide. Now you have a single action trigger pull of approx 4.5 lbs. 2nd strike capability is also with a full 11.5 lb trigger pull. Sounds exactly the same to me? Why is it that it is considered safe to carry a safety less pistol with a 4.5 lb trigger as long as it's a LEM trigger, but it's suddenly unsafe and stupid if it's a DA/SA pistol? Both pistols will not fire unless you apply 4.5 lbs of force to the trigger. If someone stated that they carried their DA/SA pistol in SA with no manual safety, they would be ridiculed for being unsafe. In LEM, it's expected. I understand that the physical trigger systems are very different, but they seem to provide the exact same outcome. 4.5 lb trigger when "cocked" DA/SA or "partially cocked" LEM, and 11.5 lb "uncocked" with both LEM and DA/SA. Sounds like a classic double standard to me, so I must assume that I am missing something. What am I missing? (besides an HK of my own) |
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Looking to purchase an HK in the near future and have been trying to understand the differences. I've only had the opportunity to fire a friends DA/SA P30S. Don't know anyone with a LEM version and no rentals around that I've been able to find. What puzzles me isn't how the different actions work, but in how they change the physical operation of the pistol by the shooter, and in what is considered a safe way to carry the pistol. For a LEM you insert the magazine and cycle the slide. Now, assuming you are using the light LEM, you have a trigger pull of approx 4.5 lbs with no manual safety. 2nd strike capability is with a full 11.5 lb trigger pull. For DA/SA you insert the magazine and cycle the slide. Now you have a single action trigger pull of approx 4.5 lbs. 2nd strike capability is also with a full 11.5 lb trigger pull. Sounds exactly the same to me? Why is it that it is considered safe to carry a safety less pistol with a 4.5 lb trigger as long as it's a LEM trigger, but it's suddenly unsafe and stupid if it's a DA/SA pistol? Both pistols will not fire unless you apply 4.5 lbs of force to the trigger. If someone stated that they carried their DA/SA pistol in SA with no manual safety, they would be ridiculed for being unsafe. In LEM, it's expected. I understand that the physical trigger systems are very different, but they seem to provide the exact same outcome. 4.5 lb trigger when "cocked" DA/SA or "partially cocked" LEM, and 11.5 lb "uncocked" with both LEM and DA/SA. Sounds like a classic double standard to me, so I must assume that I am missing something. What am I missing? (besides an HK of my own) In the LEM trigger system, the hammer is not cocked. It has to be cocked and then let go. In addition to that, there is a lot of take up before the break point. Lastly, when performing an action like reholstering, you can rest your thumb on the hammer to prevent AD when reholstering. Whereas carrying in single action is very unsafe as not only is there no take up, but the hammer is cocked and a round could fire even if the trigger is untouched, due to a mechanical failure with the hammer dropping. |
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In the LEM trigger system, the hammer is not cocked. It has to be cocked and then let go. In addition to that, there is a lot of take up before the break point. Lastly, when performing an action like reholstering, you can rest your thumb on the hammer to prevent AD when reholstering. Whereas carrying in single action is very unsafe as not only is there no take up, but the hammer is cocked and a round could fire even if the trigger is untouched, due to a mechanical failure with the hammer dropping. Ok so the trigger pull on the LEM has more take up. Both pistols still require 4.5 lbs of force to fire, so I'm not really seeing the point here. How is the single action unsafe because it has no take up? If you keep your finger off the trigger you won't have any problem here right? Just as you could rest your finger on the hammer while re holstering a LEM, you could also rest your finger on or in front of the hammer re holstering a SA. Again I see little difference here. Now for a mechanical failure causing the hammer to drop. First as ugly as this sounds I have never heard of a HK suffering such a mechanical failure, but anything is possible, Now assuming this failure did occur, wouldn't the firing pin block prevent the pistol form firing? I mean that is the purpose of the firing pin block. To prevent the accidental discharge of the weapon when the trigger is not depressed. You drop your weapon and it suffers damage from the impact causing the hammer to drop, the firing pin block will still prevent a discharge. I don't mean to sound as if I'm bashing the LEM trigger. These are just the questions running through my head as I learn about the system. Please do not take offence. |
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In the LEM trigger system, the hammer is not cocked. It has to be cocked and then let go. In addition to that, there is a lot of take up before the break point. Lastly, when performing an action like reholstering, you can rest your thumb on the hammer to prevent AD when reholstering. Whereas carrying in single action is very unsafe as not only is there no take up, but the hammer is cocked and a round could fire even if the trigger is untouched, due to a mechanical failure with the hammer dropping. Ok so the trigger pull on the LEM has more take up. Both pistols still require 4.5 lbs of force to fire, so I'm not really seeing the point here. How is the single action unsafe because it has no take up? If you keep your finger off the trigger you won't have any problem here right? Just as you could rest your finger on the hammer while re holstering a LEM, you could also rest your finger on or in front of the hammer re holstering a SA. Again I see little difference here. Now for a mechanical failure causing the hammer to drop. First as ugly as this sounds I have never heard of a HK suffering such a mechanical failure, but anything is possible, Now assuming this failure did occur, wouldn't the firing pin block prevent the pistol form firing? I mean that is the purpose of the firing pin block. To prevent the accidental discharge of the weapon when the trigger is not depressed. You drop your weapon and it suffers damage from the impact causing the hammer to drop, the firing pin block will still prevent a discharge. I don't mean to sound as if I'm bashing the LEM trigger. These are just the questions running through my head as I learn about the system. Please do not take offence. Maybe someone more educated about this than me can answer it better. But as far as take up, the longer take up gives you more leeway in knowing if something is hitting the trigger. |
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I am no expert on the LEM trigger, but I do have one. I have to say the biggest thing about the LEM trigger is the length of take up and the short reset. I'll compare it to my P239. It is the DA/SA model.
Obviously the DA takes more effort to pull the trigger, but when in SA the trigger sits back a lot further. So if the trigger on my sig in SA gets bumped it will fire easily because there is not much take up left and no safety. The LEM resets all the way forward like it wasn't even cocked. So should the tigger be bumped while holstering, that extra take up will give a lot of room for error. It will not be as easy for the gun to go off. Plus I would find it much easier to put my thumb on the back of the hammer versus putting it in front of the hammer. |
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You are correct that the firing pin block/ safety will not allow the weapon to discharge if there is a hammer issue. A cocked and locked HK in single action is completely safe. The LEM trigger just allows a consistent trigger pull every time the trigger is pulled. That was the whole point behind the Law Enforcement Modification LEM trigger. The average citizen does not like to see a police officer with a holstered cocked and locked weapon. The typical non gun public sees a cocked hammer and is worried about the gun going off.
Either way you are safe otherwise LE and govt agencies would not issue those weapons in both DA/SA and LEM configurations. |
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These are pretty decent discriptions of how LEM works compared to DA/SA. I was in the same boat as you after reading everything. You need to try and find someone (or a range, there was none in my parts) who might have one to give it a try. It took me a while to get used to the first pull b/c it is so long. Then you need to train yourself on releasing the trigger to engage the hammer so to speak. I really like my P30 and carry it quite often. I am very confident with my gun and feel that it has some big advantages over a normal DA/SA type. I have had a close friend in my gun club and my father-in-law both fire my gun. When they first tried it they both thought there was something wrong because the long take up with the first pull even after I told them what to expect.after they ran ~40-50 rounds through it they both really like it. Another good place to learn about LEMs is on the HKPRO forum or Pistoltraining.com. Todd Green did a torture test with the P30 & HK45 using the LEM versions. Good luck!
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The best way I can describe the LEM trigger is it's basically a "Glock" style trigger and it's kind of like a 2 stage trigger.
On a Glock, you have a little bit of take-up before you hit a stop. It's about a 2 pound pull. Any more force beyond that stop point will result in firing the weapon, which is about a 5 pound trigger pull.. Once you fire the weapon, instead of completely letting go of the trigger and letting it fully reset, you only reset just enough until you feel and hear the trigger reset. This allows you to basically fire it without having to take up the slack on the trigger again. It's like shooting single action, but you have to manually hold the slack down on the trigger on the reset. This is one of the fundamentals of learning to shoot a Glock accurately and really fast. On an HK with an LEM trigger, you have a long 1.5 pound take up until you reach a stop. That stop is the trigger breaking point, which is then about 4.5 pounds. Any more force beyond that will fire the weapon. Like a Glock trigger,you only need to release the trigger enough until you both hear and feel the trigger reset after weapon fires. This is about where the single action reset will be on the DA/SA HK's. The only difference is that when you completely let go of the trigger, it will reset back to it's light 1st stage part of the trigger... like a Glock. Different from a Glock is the HK's capability of a long 11.5 pound double action pull if there's a misfire and doesn't cycle the slide. You can't prestage the trigger if it hasn't been cocked. On a Glock, you have to tap and rack on a misfire. Glocks cannot be fired uncocked and are basically "single action only" type firearms in that regards. The LEM triggers actually have an internal hammer that gets precocked when you cycle the slide. This is what allows the really light 1.5 pound pull on the first stage of the trigger pull. The reason why these don't have safeties is because the 1.5 pound pull of the 1st stage is enough of a buffer to prevent accidental discharges. It's not the same as a DA/SA gun cocked in single action with no safety. The SA gun is riding right on the break point of the sear and even the slightest snag will break the trigger and fire the weapon. The LEM trigger was made primarily for LEO, who wanted a firearm with a consistent pull every shot, with no external safeties and could have the advantages of a single action style reset like a Glock. Since most police departments are familiar with Glocks, they system is very familiar and minimal amount of training would be needed to switch over to an HK with an LEM trigger. |
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Thanks for that description. I have never fully understood how the LEM worked, and now I think I do. I wish there was someplace that rented them around here, I'd love to compare it to my DA/SA HK 45. I have a DA/SA HK45 as well and a P30 LEM as my CCW. I love the LEM trigger and think it's perfect for carry. |
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Bumping this old thread, but I looked at a P30L the other day at Sportsman's Warehouse. It was a V3 9mm and the DA pull was horrid, just like on my USP Tactical .45. The SA pull was nice and smooth but I could never carry the HK with that awful of a DA pull knowing I'd never be able to hit a brick wall with the first shot. I really, really want a P30L with the LEM trigger.
ETA- Do they not make a 9mm P30 with the LEM trigger? All I see on HK's website is a P30 in .40 with the "LEM enhanced DAO" trigger. Also, what's the difference in the LEM enhanced DAO trigger and the "light" LEM? |
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Bumping this old thread, but I looked at a P30L the other day at Sportsman's Warehouse. It was a V3 9mm and the DA pull was horrid, just like on my USP Tactical .45. The SA pull was nice and smooth but I could never carry the HK with that awful of a DA pull knowing I'd never be able to hit a brick wall with the first shot. I really, really want a P30L with the LEM trigger. ETA- Do they not make a 9mm P30 with the LEM trigger? All I see on HK's website is a P30 in .40 with the "LEM enhanced DAO" trigger. Also, what's the difference in the LEM enhanced DAO trigger and the "light" LEM? fairly certain they make 9mm p30 in lem, saw a bunch at a gun show a few months ago when i was looking for a v3 |
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Quoted: Thanks for that description. I have never fully understood how the LEM worked, and now I think I do. I wish there was someplace that rented them around here, I'd love to compare it to my DA/SA HK 45. You have to try out both side by side. there is no substitute. I love the LEM trigger and all my HK's have it. here is the difference D.A. First shot heavy pull, second shot light pull, third shot light pull ........... LEM First shot light pull, second shot light pull, third shot light pull ........... In the very rare event of a misfire restrike is heavy pull
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So if you carry a Glock on and off duty and are tuned to that trigger style, then The LEM would be the way to go if you wanted an H&K ? Yes Yes again. The LEM HKs are pretty good. They will feel a little different than glocks (longer trigger pull and depending on the model, a longer reset), but they make pretty good triggers. The P30 with LEM is one of the best 9mm (40cal) handguns made today. |
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As it has already been stated, the LEM is the same light trigger pull for all shots. When dry firing you get a light trigger pull, and if you don't cycle the slide then you end up with the heavy 11.5lb trigger pull, but that is not the trigger pull when shooting live ammo. So if you are comparing LEM to DA/SA in a shop, be sure to cycle the slide on the LEM to maintain the proper trigger function.
I have the HK45 LEM and love it. I love it so much I also put the LEM on my USPc 9mm. For the guy wanting the 9mm with the LEM, if you find a good deal on a SA/DA you could always spend the $80 to get the LEM from an online shop, or spend more and send it into HK for the conversion. Hope this helps. |