Posted: 11/25/2006 11:04:19 AM EDT
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I have a Walther PP Manurhin 7.65mm and would appreciate any info I can get about this gun. It was imported by CAI. See pics below Is this an early post war model since it has no walther banner on the slide or grips. I read this in Gangarosa's Walther book. I read where the Manurhin guns started their serial numbers at 100,001. This gun has no number on the slide but has a 34, xxx number on the frame. How can this be if the Manurhin numbers started at 100k? The frame also has SW618 and JW 3021. What do these numbers mean? The box has the 34,xxx serial number stamped on it and then 618 in ink next to it. It also has a sticker inside the box which says Stix Wolfgang 3021 034,xxx.(serial number) Who is Stix Wolfgang? SW? The name of a person, police department or army? Both magazines are stamped Manurhin and with the serial number of the gun. One is marked I and the other II. I thought this was cool but is this unusual? Can you see the proof marks well enough to tell what they are? The one next to the magazine release looks like an eagle. The one next to the serial number is also on the bolt but I can't tell whatt it is supposed to be. Seems odd that the gun is in such excellent condition but there is some light surface rust only on the front of the grip where the JW 3021 is. Any help would be most appreciated. Tony       |
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Hi Tony, Gonna try to help here--I collect German Walthers and know a little about the Manurhin ones--but am NOT an expert. So, here goes: I can't tell if it's an early Manurhin PP, but if the year 1951 or 1952 appears in the ejection port on the barrel--then yes. After 1952, the Manurhin proof--which is a Crown over a Shield was used. St. Etienne ( Saint Stephen) is also usually marked on the gun. According to "Walther: A German Legend," by Manfred Kersten, Safari Press, Manurhin PP pistols in 7,65mm (.32ACP) started at serial # 10,001 in 1952. Seems Gangarosa is off a smidge--but it happens. There are a few other minor inaccuracies in his book--don't ask which, I don't recall what they are--I just remember reading it going--hmmm, that's not what Rankin & Hoffschmidt said.... 2 other books I would suggest if you are seriously thinking about researching on Walthers are: "Know Your Walther PP & PPK" by Hoffschmidt (can usually be found used for under $20)and James Rankin's Walther series. Rankin is pretty much THE Walther expert. His books aren't cheap--but if you're collecting--it's the way to go. I would guess the SW618 and JW3021 are probably police designations/serial #s. West Germany has states, so each state has state police. Towns & cities also had particular stamps. For example, an "NDS" on a square with rounded edges stood for "Lower Saxony States." Other countries even used these, for example, "Tillhor Polisen" is the Swedish Police. I would also guess that you gun has SW & JW #s as it was probably used by one department, returned to the factory (perhaps even at Ulm, Germany, which may be where it got the Eagle N proof) to be refitted, then sent out to another department. The Manurhin pistols got the Manurhin proofs, Crown over Shield. I agree, it looks like you also have an Eagle near the mag button--which is why I think your pistol was reworked and re-issued at some point. Eagle over N with raised wings = Ulm, West Germany proof. The Nazi Eagle-N had its wings straight at 180 degrees apart--the post war eagle has them raised--some say as a sign of surrender. The mags--I don't know why, but the Germans used to put the serial #s on, and also sometimes number the mags I and II--I guess that was so you could tell the difference between the finger rest and flat bottom mags...  They did this before WWII and in the early stages, but stopped midway. The Germans have a history of doing stuff like this--an example: Luger pistols have the last 3 digits of the serial #s on all the parts, including the grips and small parts. Why--That's how the Germans are. All original parts increase the value of Lugers.I Googled "Wolfgang Stix" and found several, so I would assume he was/is a person--one of the owners--either a police officer, military person or civilian who owned the gun or was issued it at some point. This was fairly common and several of the German Walthers from the 1960s I owned had the owners name on the box, or owners manual. Regarding the finish--police guns are usually carried alot and used little. Also, the slide, barrel or other parts may have been replaced at some point--it's impossible to tell. German post-war Walthers had the serial # on the slide and frame--so it's easy to tell. Again, with a police gun--if it gets buggered up and goes back--it gets new parts. I would doubt this is an early PP, but again--I can't be sure. Your grips are marked with the standard Manurhin logo in a diamond, and at the very botton it says "Lic. Walther.PP" again--look on the barrel in the ejection port for 51 or 52, or 1951 or 1952. I hope this helps give you some info and some resources. Also Google Walther PPK as there used to be a "Walther Handguns Owners Group" and other sites. Cheer! Martin ETA: on the right front of the frame near the trigger guard is the US importers mark--this is required on all guns brought into the US after GCA'68 |
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My pleasure. Feel free to email of you have more questions. I was collecting post-war--specifically, 1960s German Walthers, so I learned a little about the others. As I acquired more & more "safe queens" that I was afraid to shoot--I decided to bail and keep my shooters. It's kinda scary & frustrating to have a $2,000 gun you want to shoot--but if you bugger it up--you've lost your investment...... Walther collecting is alot of fun--but gets pricey! One Ooops! can be very costly. |
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Wow! That's a beauty! I had a steel frame 1966 German PPK and a PPK/L in 7,65mm like that--and a virgin 9mmKurz, too...... The temptation to shoot them was too great...... I only made 25% on them....but spent it on an FS2000 and Glock 17 Sometimes I say--What was I thinking!?!?!?!? |