[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 45Auto vs 10mm Auto (Page 1 of 4)
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There are a variety of proven and effective performers in .45 acp and while these same makes of bullets are also found in .40 SW, they are generally not loaded commercially in 10mm auto by any of the Big Names in handgun ammo: there is no 10mm HST, Ranger T, or Speer loaded Gold Dot. Federal loads the less effective Hydrashock, but it is virtually identical in performance to the same weight .40 SW. Corbon offers the Barnes DPX in 155 gr, but I have no clue as to its performance compared to the excellent 185 gr .45acp DPX. The .40 inch diameter Gold Dots are loaded in 10mm by Double Tap ammunition and if their gel results claims are true, then the Double Tap loaded Gold Dots in 10mm perform just as well as those in .45acp. The 180 gr Gold Dot at 1300 fps performs just as well as the 230 gr Gold Dot in .45 at 1010 fps (both, DT claims, penetrate 14 inches and expand to .95) and the 165 gr performs even better. However, I await confirmation from other sources as to these gel result claims as the DT numbers fall under the "too good to be true" category. However, if the gel results pan out, given the similar recoil impulse and higher magazine capacity of the 10mm, I would go with that if I found a suitable platform to launch them from (this, however, is a problem. When speaking of high capacity pistols, the only suitable 10mm choice is the Glock model 20. IMHO the USP .45 is such a superior pistol, though, to outweigh the Glock. In single stack pistols, Delta Elites are hard to find, 10mm 1911 pistols are prone to reliability issues, and the SW 10mm series suffers from the same problem as the Delta Elite) Thus, when we are talking about commonly available ammunition loaded to normal velocities, .45 acp wins just by the availability of the best bullet designs. |
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I have found five boxes of Black Talon 180gr and 200gr JHP's. For concealed carry I am torn between my USP Expert .45 and my Glock 20C. Both are extremely accurate, and have high capacity mags. I love them both to death, but since I only have one spot open on my CCW permit, I am looking for the most leathal of the two calibers. Lets narrow the descussion a little since I have Black Talons in both .45 ACP and 10mm Auto. Which Black Talon is better? |
Neither is that thrilling. Black talon is a mediocre and out dated bullet design. I'd carry it if I had to, but there's much better out there these days. The readily available GOLD DOT is a much superior round for CCW/Defense. And many here really like the WIN Ranger ammo too. It seems like you're trying to have the tail wag the dog here. |
A properly designed bullet will penetrate about 12" and expand to about twice its diameter. The difference between the two calibers is not that great; pick the one which you feel more comfortable with and which allows you to hit your target. Magazine capacity ranks up there as well. My favorite pic shows how little difference there is between properly designed handgun bullets: 
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Don't let them fool you. Standard load 10mm hit HARD. 10mm at its honest loading has almost twice the muzzle energy as .45 ACP. I have a Glock 29 in 10mm and love that little beast. Side by side against a G27 (.40 cal) it actually recoils softer. The G29 feels like the G30 (.45) in terms of recoil, but packs a lot more wallop. I carry 175 gr. Winchester Silvertips in it. It's about the last commonly available commerical hollow point you can find everywhere that is still loaded to true 10mm power. I'm running about 600 ft-lbs out of that little G29. Not bad for a CCW piece. |
I would like to see how a DT 180gr. or 200gr JHP would compare to the other calibers. I shoot the 10mm and 45ACP only. If cost is no option go nuts with the 10mil. I do 
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I was about to ask the same question |
Muzzle Energy is very important! After you shoot someone, you show them a chart and explain how many foot-pounds of bad you have just laid upon them. When confronted with that logic, they will immediately lay down and expire! – You just can't argue with the facts! |
LOL |
What exactly does that energy do? We know for a fact it doesn't knock the test subject back flying through the air like on TV, so what exactly does it do? |
More energy means it tears the living she-ite out of the BG's insides I like the #'s of the 10mm. Fun to shoot too. |
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The 10mm is more powerful than he 45 ACP is, period. But the platforms available for the 10mm is pretty slim, as is the ease of finding ammo. Which is why I've been struggling to convert a Sig 220 to 10mm, but I can't find a shop to make the barrel & modifications. About the ME comments..... High muzzle energy, when attributed to high velocities, produces a greater "shock" or "ripple" effect on the tissues, although the lighter faster projectile may not penetrate as deep. Energy = Mass x Velocity (squared) A 22-250 & a 7.62x39 have about the same ME: about 1,450 ft. lbs. If it hits solid soft tissues, not hollow ones like stomachs or lungs and not very hard ones like a moose's shoulder, the 22-250 produces a more traumatic wound. This ME damage concept was the foundation of Roy Weatherby's line of calibers. Roy believed that lightweight bullets traveling at super high speeds provided the best combination for one-shot kills. But the 7.62 can penetrate deeper to reach vital organs if there is too much muscle or fat protecting it. Shoot a watermelon with a 7.62x39mm, and then another with a 22-250. The difference is eye popping. (where is the gunny?) This doesn't instantly translate into more "stopping power" as people like to say, but it illustrates the differences in tissue damage. Of coarse this assumes that bullet types are similar and that the shooter is making (the most important part) good shot placement |
So projectiles with 100 fpe 200 fpe 300 fpe 400 fpe 500 fpe 600 fpe Would all perform the same? Why not just carry .22 Magnum then? Fpe does matter. It may be the difference between cover and concealment. A bullet that is deflected by bone, a bone that is fractured and deflects the bullet, or bone that is penetrated by a bullet. - the difference between those bullets would most likely be fpe. The more energy you have the more likely hard stuff, like bones, won't simply stop, or deflect it. Gelatin is a great comparison medium. People are not made of gelatin. They have bones, cartilage, thick muscles, fat, organs, etc. All are different then gelatin. If fpe doesn't matter, why are rifles more effective than hadguns? Yes the difference between a 9mm +p+ and .45 ACP, may not indicate huge differences in terminal effectiveness. But there damn sure is a difference between .22 Magnum, .25 ACP, .32 ACP, .38 special, and 10 mm. It is energy dependent. |
That's a pretty good argument there!...I have to agree. Why DO we say one cartride is more powerful than the next?? Bigger bullet? More velocity? Bigger expansion? Why is a .50BMG more powerful than the .22 lr? Please explain |
Before this turns into a 6 page flame war i will add that you're basically splitting hairs between a .45 and 10mm. The .45 has a wider selection of modern 'bullets' and arguably the best handgun ammunition available (LEO) in terms of penetrating barriers like clothing and drywall, etc.. and still expanding. With the exception of Gold Dots, most 10mm HP ammo is dated compared with the modern ammo available for the .45 What i'm trying to say is there's a better selection of modern bullets available for the .45 than there is for the 10mm (which reminds me i still want a Delta Elite  ) |
A 10mm can push a 180 grain bullet at 1,350 fps with Muzzle Energy: 728 ft. lbs. A 45 +P can push a 185 grain bullet at 1,150 fps with Muzzle Energy: 543 ft. lbs. (numbers taken from Buffalo Bore data) The 45's bullet is 2.8% heavier, but the 10mm velocity is 17.4% higher, and since velocity is squared in the energy equation, it results in 37.8% more energy (17.4% squared). Is 38% more energy enough to dislodge body tissues that are connected to the immediate wound site? i dunno, it depends on a lot of other factors like the type of tissue, and the type of bullet. But if my life were at stake I would rather rely on the 10mm cartridge, than the 45 +P. |
I've done this. It really works! \ 
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% this! If all you had to do was roll the numbers it would have been decided 100 years ago… So you shoot your 10mm with all that 1,350 ft/lbs but miss your targets heart by .01%. Another shoots with a .22 Short, me too low to measure, but passes through the heart. Results? You still have a problem, but not the other shooter… Muzzle Energy is mildly interesting but never conclusive! |
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In Arfcom tradition, I got both. Comparing .45 to 10mm is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. The 10mm is a high pressure round, at least it was designed to be. Now most factory loadings for the 10 are very similar to .40S&W and 45 ACP, however the 10mm can be loaded to much higher pressures similar the the 45 Super. It's funny how the .40 Short and Weak is becoming so popular because it is so close to the .45 is terms of stopping power, but there is no consensus superior. One of the previous posters made an excellent point in that there is a huge range of bullet weights and power levels that the 10mm can be loaded to. Some guys are loading the 10mm to over 1000 ft lbs of muzzle energy when fired out of a fully supported 6" barrel! From 230 grain hardcast at over 1100 fps to 135 grain hollow points at 1600 fps. You just can't compare that to 45 ACP, but if consider .45 Super it's another story. |
Don't try to put words in my mouth, I didn't say that ME was conclusive. As a matter of fact, my home protection gun is a Sig P220-R with Cor-Bon DPX, dispite having 1,300+ rounds of 10mm in the house. The reason is that I haven't found a 10mm platform that I like enough, so I choose the next best thing, a 45 I like. |
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The answer, as always, is the same: The round which: 1) You feel most comfortable with and can hit what you're aiming for, 2) Has the largest expanded diameter, and 3) penetrates 12" or so. Hyper-velocity rounds usually fall short on #3, as a lot of that vaunted "energy" is dissipated in the deformation of the bullet. Point is: There's usually no need to go to a super-high velocity round, although there are plenty that meet the criteria above. |
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I created 2 petitions that will ultimately submitted to Springfield Armory and S&W asking for 10mm versions of the large frame XD and M&P. Please take the time to sign and spread the word on the petitions. M&P www.petitiononline.com/MP10mm/petition.html XD www.petitiononline.com/XD10mm/petition.html |
done 
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I will concur on the Corbon DPX 45ACP round...It kicks serious ass. It is what I use in 45ACP, 9mm and .40. S.O. S.O. |
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Foot pounds of energy is the amount of energy that it takes to move an object one foot. Ex 9mm 115 gr 383 fpe means that load has enough energy to move a 383 lb object one foot. So when hitting an object it is an important factor. Bullet design also helps. Take it for what it's worth.hanks |
Uhhh, no. |
Not an absolute explanation, but it does answer a few questions. BTW, I just don't see a 10mm bullet hitting something that weighs 728 lbs and moving it 12". |
Hunger. But seriously, they are both gonna stop watevah, personally I go 10mm auto, I can double tap well with the .175 grain silvertips by Winchester, I like the fact that 10mm auto is also a MAGNUM load. |
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I'd quit looking at the numbers of Velocity, etc and more at, Penetration and Expansion, in the end that's all that matters. In my extremely novice and humble opinion the expansion would be more important obviously that penetration, moderate penetration with great expansion verse great penetration with moderate expansion, I'd take the first one. Plus get a ruler and put it by your side, I'm the big honkin' SHTF draw down size guy (6'0'' 245 lbs) and my abdomen is only like 10'' deep. Actually I take that back it's 8'', You calculate ribs, internal organs, etc, into that, and 12'' of penetration is good. Unless of course I'm wearing jean overalls then it'll gum up and fall on the floor.  10mm is good, 9mm is good, and .45 ACP are all good in penetration, look at what differs between them in expansion, controllability for you and what suits your needs and you'll start thinking in practical terms. Realistically you may not need a .75'' diameter .45 JHP but in my humble opinion again, 230 gr, the weight of it, the size of it, the expansion of it? I'll take the few hundred FPS slower but same penetration (basically) more expansion and heavy bullet. I'd take it over a 10mm. I'm surprised someone hasn't mention some of the infamous stories of people being shot multiple times with High Powered hand guns at close range and the Hollow points not having time to expand, or having too much velocity and making a clean wound (if you can call a gunshot wound clean.) EDIT: Looking at the 9mm 147 gr. it hit the target going 1037 FPS the 180 gr. .40 S&W hit it at 995 FPS the expansion on the 9mm 147 gr. was 0.63'' and the expansion on the .40 S&W 180 gr was 0.68''. That coupled with the fact that they both penetrated what appears in my opinion the same depth, It's almost not worth the trouble to have to pay the extra for a 10mm. Go 9mm, it's 42 FPS faster but with only .05'' less expansion, it's cheaper and no real significant difference, at least in the 147 gr. I bet you the similarities get closer with the 147 gr (9mm) and 165 gr (40). It appears again to me (an amateur in all respects) that there's not much difference, I think about 1200-1300 FPS is about as fast as you'll ever want to see a handgun bullet travel, at least with defense in mind, look at expansion weigh the differences in cost and look at all the functionality issues people have had with the 10mm and how hard it is on the gun, it's basically a magnum round. Anyway, just my .02 cents. |
What is the only way to get a true "one shot stop"?? Hitting the Central Nervous System. That is basically the brain or spinal column. Both of those items are inside armored structures, the skull and spine. You need enough power to penetrate or displace those bones to effect the CNS. Other places that can hit and cause a stop within seconds would be Heart, lungs, windpipe. The body needs oxygen, if it can't get it it will start shutting down. That may mean stopping, or having reduced ability. But that may take several seconds. In that time a determined assailant can kill you. In a lot of gunshot wounds, the method of incapacitation is loss of blood. That takes longer still. Then there's disablity by hitting a body part. May not be able to use a hand that has been shot, or an arm, or leg. Or the GSWR may be able to use that part with reduced ability. But the other areas of the body may be totally functional. Then of course there is simply, "it hurts, I'll stop". Bleeding out probably dodesn't change much with Fpe. But the ability to get reliable CNS stop is definitely energy dependent. |
I know I've already posted, and I don't mean to double post, but you took away one of the .45 ACP's best assets, it's size, 185 gr? why not 200 or 230 gr, most defense hand gun owners who use .45 ACP use the heavier grain bullets. How about a +P 230 gr. instead of a 180, try that, or how about they skew it some more and do a 147 gr. 10mm against a +P 230 gr .45? I'd like to know who if anyone who carries a 180 gr .45. EDIT Again(it's a habit, I get a thought as soon as I hit enter Submit): They're basically just demonstrating the fact that 10mm's have a higher FPS and on it's best platform 180 gr. they demonstrate it against in my opinion the worst platform .45 round 180 gr. How about a +P 180 gr versus a +P 230 gr I say we should do a vice versa biast comparison and do a 165 gr, or smaller 10mm +P against a 230 gr. regular .45 ACP and look at expansion, then we can both argue until the end of time. |
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Energy as I've come to understand in this regard (not electrical) is basically the Feet Per Second and the size of the object that hit it. A slower object but large object that hit something isn't going to necessarily make it bad just because it's slower. We're talking differences of 200 FPS in the 165 and about 110 FPS in the 180 gr. but with expansion of .68'' versus .74'' and an inch more penetration possibly in the 10mm, how about you look at the bullet channel, where the bullets hit, with a larger channel (seemingly, it bubbles the other one ripples, but the .40 slightly smaller. We need an explanation on it.) is that 1'' deeper worth it? Incapacitation via either tearing muscles apart or piercing deeply and making a more painful wound via a larger bullet, I'd take that versus a marginally (and we are talking marginally) deeper penetration with less damage done? |
45 Auto +P 200 GDHP fps 1080 fpe 518 .45 ACP is generally 400-550 fpe 10 mm is generally 450-700 fpe Niether one is a weak self defense caliber, even wth less than optimal ammo choices. It proably comes down to what the end user wants, expects, and values, in a handgun, more than either one not being able to get the job done. |
How about we look at the 230 gr. and equate expansion in it as well, you're right it does have more energy, but as the ballistic gelatin graph demonstrates, that doesn't mean more penetration, Now if this thing has so much more energy, almost double (if you give the lowest .45 ACP +P FPE and the highest 10mm FPE) yet we still have a larger channel in the .45 (actually that doesn't relate to this, they weren't the bullets tested), and almost the same penetration? Why isn't this thing going 16'' to 18''? I think we need more testing, and with more bullets, I'd volunteer but, don't have either of the host guns. |
Firstly, I don't believe that a 185 gr .45 expands any less than a 200 or 230 gr .45 round. Next, I don't know where you are getting your 10mm penetration figures. Most big manufacterer 10mm rounds are loaded much closer to .40 S+W power levels than true 10 mm power. I have a Remington ammo catalog from 1990, the 10mm rounds int it are loaded hotter than current Remington 10mm rounds. Even Cor-Bon's listings aren't particularly stout. If you want full power 10mm rounds, they are gonna be harder to find, and they will be more powerful than conventional 10mm loadings, be a signifigant amount. |
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Caliber : 10mm Bullet : 165gr Golden Saber Hollow Point Ballistics : 1425fps/ 744ft./lbs. - Glock 20 Caliber : 10mm Bullet : 180gr. Controlled Exp.JHP Ballistics : 180gr. @ 1350fps/ 728 ft/lbs- Glock 20 Caliber : 10mm Bullet : 135gr. Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point. Ballistics : 1600fps / 767 ft.lbs. - Glock 20 www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21 That's 10mm loaded much closer to the original specs. |
Did you read the rest of the post? The CNS is surrounded by bone. Unless you are shooting the other guy in the back, to get to the spine, the bullet is going to have to travel through a good part of the chest, or abdomen, to get to the spine. When it gets there it still has to have enough energy to do what needs to be done to get through the spinal column. |
Corbon's 40 S&W DPX40140/20 40 S&W 140 GR. DPX 1200 FPS 448 FTLBS Corbon's .45 ACP +P DPX45185/20 45 AUTO +P 185 GR. DPX 1075 FPS 475 FTLBS Shocking that a .45 .230 gr ACP +P has more energy than a 10mm 140 gr. , yet is traveling slower. Not seeing much of a difference here between 165 gr .45 ACP and 180 gr. 10mm Federal's 180 gr. 10mm Self Defense Hydra Shock http://www.federalcartridge.com/ballistics/Ammo_Search.aspx Energy rated a 420 ft lbs. Feet Per Second 1030 FPS Federal's 230 gr. .45 ACP Hydra Shock http://www.federalcartridge.com/ballistics/Ammo_Search.aspx Energy rated at 405 ft lbs. Feet Per Second 890 Feet Per Second Federal 165 gr .45 ACP Hydra Shock http://www.federalcartridge.com/ballistics/Ammo_Search.aspx Energy rated a 410 ft lbs. Feet Per Second 1060 FPS So they can hypothetically make hot loads pushing 750 ft lbs, I'd like to know the FPS on those rounds as well. I can't remember where I saw it, but it appears that some .230 gr JHP's had better expansion than other smaller .45 ACP JHP's and I was going off that assumption, I was looking for it in the ammo forum, couldn't find it. But I was looking at this site, http://www.le.atk.com/pdf/PortlandWoundBallisticReport1.pdf Which is in the FAQ, and there is a evidence of a .45 ACP penetrating to 15'' and expanding to .88'', that was with Federal Premium 230 gr. So I'm sure there are statistics comparing them, but I couldn't find any comparing 200 gr. 45. ACP and 230 gr. or a .45 vs. 10mm chart either, so, I dunno. We'll just have to go off of manufacturer's figures. EDIT: I see your statistics, just spent too much time looking up ammo web sites. Good figures. (viewed another FAQ link and there are .45's that have gone to 1.02'') I also found this .45 165 gr JHP. Caliber: .45ACP Bullet : 165gr. JHP Ballistics : 1325fps - 643 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911 http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=146 and this Caliber : .45ACP Bullet : 185gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP Ballistics : 1225fps - 616 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911 http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=93 Those aren't even +P rated bullets. Top one is close. With the Energy argument why not just buy .45 (bigger bullet) ACP, with these rounds, with the High muzzle energy and High FPS? |