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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:37:10 PM EDT
looking for target quality but combat capable. thin grips, nice trigger. Can the 220 compete?
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:54:26 PM EDT
The 220 is a little bigger in the grips than the 1911, but I'd take a Sig any day over a 1911. Accuracy out of the box, safety, and European styling all put it head and shoulders above a stock 1911. Also, $600-$800 for a Sig compared to $1000 and up for a comperable 1911 makes a lot more sense to me. But the most important thing is how well you can shoot it. It doesn't matter how much you like how it looks and what other people tell you it will do if you can't hit the broad side of a barn.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:57:21 PM EDT
If you want super out of the box accuracy with no performance issues, go with the sig P220. Definitely.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:09:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
looking for target quality but combat capable. thin grips, nice trigger. Can the 220 compete?



and you're looking for objective opinions on a Sig forum?
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:07:27 PM EDT
I regret to say that I've yet to own a 1911 that is reliable enough for any sort of duty involving life and death. This includes Colts, Kimbers, and Springfields.
Though for the most part they were all accurate as hell and had wonderful triggers, they were just too prone to jamming. Absolutely unacceptable.
What really irks me is that I love the design, the feel...everything about them. I just can't bring myself to trust one after I've had a malfunction. And I don't buy into the whole line of "break-in," or having to fix the company's problems out of the box. A pistol is either going to work, or it isn't. It's not my place to sprinkle magic dust over it in hopes of it functioning reliably.
My P220 on the other hand has never let me down. Period.
Through thousands of rounds never a bobble. They gobble up everything I feed them. Everything. Whether dirty or clean.
As for accuracy, they are about as accurate at 50-m. as most other pistols are at 25-m. (rested).
I shoot my P220 (carry gun) regularly, drills as well as plain old target practice. Bottom line, if I were to have forehand knowledge of a pending firefight, I would make it a point to be carrying a P220.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:36:03 PM EDT
P220's are really tough to find fault in. Now available with the DAK trigger, or in single action only (yes, single action only), you can really get the P220 with the trigger for you. I prefer the tradtional DA/SA myself. I plan on getting one of the new P220 Carry models later next month. Its got a 3.9" barrel, railed frame, and uses standard P220 magazines. Mostly will be the dedicated nightstand gun with M3 mounted, but short enough to CCW comfortably as well.

And as posted above, even when looking for a NIB gun, the P220 is cheaper than a 1911 that is as reliable. Teknic on this board sells the Sig GSR for $859, and that is a smoking good deal on an amazing 1911. So if you must have the tradional Browning design, get one thats hand fitted, with no MIM parts at all, and a match barrel. GSR's are the heat. My $.02
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 2:43:13 AM EDT
Anyone ahve grip measurements of p220 vs 1911?

Link Posted: 1/31/2006 5:08:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 6:22:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor:
The 220s are usually very accurate out of the box...probably as accurate as a standard Colt Gold Cup or maybe better, They come, however, with combat sights and trigger, so wringing all available accuracy out of the gun can be a bit difficult in standard form. The newer steel framed 220s, especially if you get the SA model, might be better, but the sights are still not going to compare to a really good set of Eliason or (better) BoMar target sights with thin front blade where target shooting is concerned.

1911s, of course, run the scale from something basic like the GI model to extremely specialized. You can get better triggers and sights on the 1911 than on the Sig, but you may have to pay a lot more for a model that comes with them or to have them installed.

Reliability is a toss up IF you get a good quality 1911 and use high quality magazines. I own two older Sig 220s and several 1911s and I will say that my experience has been that MY 1911s are slightly more reliable than my Sigs, but all are more than reliable enough to bet my life on...and I have done so. There is NO doubt that I, at least, shoot the 1911s better than the Sigs, but YMMV.

For CCW, the 1911 is easier for me to carry, but the 220 is not all that much more difficult to hide comfortably either.

With all due respect, as much as you spend on guns, I think you owe it to yourself to have at least one very nice custom...or at least semi-custom-level 1911. Something similar to a YoBo 1*, Baer, RRA or maybe a Springfield Pro TRP. I have seen many guys dink around with multiple 1911s trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear when they could have sold them all and bought one nice one that would work reliably and do what they needed. JMO

My eventual next 1911 project will be a Colt Series 70 repro, most likely sent to have the YoBo 1* package done and finished in BlackT...expensive compared to an out of the box gun, but very nice.



I've got a Wilson KZ. She's getting adj target sights soon. I don't want to spend more than I did on her for a handgun! With a TFO front and meprolight adjustable rear I';ll be at the 50 yard line all day.

I'm going to gun store today to fondle sigs.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 6:23:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wganz:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
looking for target quality but combat capable. thin grips, nice trigger. Can the 220 compete?



and you're looking for objective opinions on a Sig forum?



the problem with askiung the 1911 forum is that guys there have only 1911's. In the other forums, a sig owner will also own a 1911 and other guns.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 7:06:50 AM EDT
+1 on the Sig 220.
Or.. get the stainless Sig 220ST!
Accurate, reliable and Very Nice to shoot!
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:46:22 AM EDT
I tried it at gun store.... entirely too thick for a single stack. not happening. thanks anyway!
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:27:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I tried it at gun store.... entirely too thick for a single stack. not happening. thanks anyway!



That's odd! The 220 is one of the slimist .45's out there. No way it is too thick unless you are 4 ft 5 inches and have tiny hands!
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:50:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SkagSig40:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I tried it at gun store.... entirely too thick for a single stack. not happening. thanks anyway!



That's odd! The 220 is one of the slimist .45's out there. No way it is too thick unless you are 4 ft 5 inches and have tiny hands!



I tried 3 of them, all different grips, all too think. Weird cause teh mag is nice and thin.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 10:02:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
Can the 220 compete?



No.

Do you make any decisions without starting a thread?
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 10:06:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By drew5337:
P220's are really tough to find fault in.



Let me help you!

1. Double/single trigger pull. With a mushy single pull
2. Generally overly complex weapon. WAY TOO many buttons, knob, and levers on the thing.
3. Light primer strikes. Had this happen with Lotboy's 220. pulled the trigger a couple of times, and
then gave up, put the round in my 1911 and BANG!
4. The usual SIG failure to lockback the slide on the last round.

YMMV!
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 12:50:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By drew5337:
P220's are really tough to find fault in.



Let me help you!

1. Double/single trigger pull. With a mushy single pull Not mine
2. Generally overly complex weapon. WAY TOO many buttons, knob, and levers on the thing. Decocker, mag release, slide release. EXACTLY the same number of user controls on a 1911.
3. Light primer strikes. Had this happen with Lotboy's 220. pulled the trigger a couple of times, and
then gave up, put the round in my 1911 and BANG!Again, never with any of mine, or any others I've seen.
4. The usual SIG failure to lockback the slide on the last round. [I've only experienced this with Promag magazines. Failure to lock back is user error 99% of the time.

YMMV! Yes, I think I've gotten pretty good mileage from my Sigs.



Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:01:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drew5337:

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By drew5337:
P220's are really tough to find fault in.



Let me help you!

1. Double/single trigger pull. With a mushy single pull Not mine
2. Generally overly complex weapon. WAY TOO many buttons, knob, and levers on the thing. Decocker, mag release, slide release. EXACTLY the same number of user controls on a 1911.
3. Light primer strikes. Had this happen with Lotboy's 220. pulled the trigger a couple of times, and
then gave up, put the round in my 1911 and BANG!Again, never with any of mine, or any others I've seen.
4. The usual SIG failure to lockback the slide on the last round. [I've only experienced this with Promag magazines. Failure to lock back is user error 99% of the time.

YMMV! Yes, I think I've gotten pretty good mileage from my Sigs.






good description of the trigger on the NIB one I tried. Mushy. that's almost exactly the word I would use. But for me, the decision had to do with the size of hte grip. unacceptable.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:15:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 1:15:59 PM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

good description of the trigger on the NIB one I tried. Mushy. that's almost exactly the word I would use. But for me, the decision had to do with the size of hte grip. unacceptable.



Yep. And I thought the Failure to lock the slide back was a fluke thing with the 220s that I've shot. But I have read about it here too, as well as in different sig models tested in that GUN TESTS magazine.

I own sigs, but to me they're like my Beretta 92fs... NOT for CARRY.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:41:49 PM EDT
FWIW, A good Sig armoror (GOTM4) can clean up and shorten the 220 trigger a lot. Never going to be as nice as a good 1911 trigger will be. Also FWIW My 2 main .45's are a OLD 220 and a Kimber series 1 custom. both are accurate(More than me) reliable( 220 doesnt like wad cutters) and fun.........Udog
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 3:07:21 PM EDT
When I examined he grips it seemed like at least 33% of the thikness was inteh rubber or wood. Aer tehre any thin grips for the sig? I'd consider it if LTT was still doing sig work, but there's NO making up for that trigger on a gun that costs that much. If you haven't guessed, I was a little dissapointed after all the hype.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:10:23 AM EDT
While I love the design of the 1911, and love the single action only trigger, my Kimber is a range gun to me, and nothing more; like many others, I experience too many failures with 1911 pistols (including my own) to consider one as a main carry weapon. Yes... I know I can spend $2000 and a get a reliable 1911 pistol, but it isnt worth it. My SIG pistols (P220R and P229R DAK) have *never* failed me, since round #1. Sure, the trigger is not as sweet as that on a 1911, but it is a battle oriented pistol, not a target shooting pistol... that isnt to say they arent accurate, but the focus is reliability.

Now being thick in the grip... that I will agree with... the 1911 is much thinner... personally, I find the P220 quite comfortable, though.

-tjg
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:37:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 8:46:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor:
The older checkered plastic stocks, and actually the later stippled ones as well, make the width almost exactly the same as a 1911 with standard stocks. The rubber and wood stocks are MUCH too wide for my liking. My guns both have very good SA triggers, with only a little mush in them, but have been shot a good bit. Sig now is offering a "short" trigger (actually just a standard trigger cut down) but every other Sig I ever tried with this trigger pinched my finger...I have never shot a 220 with one, however.

Finding the older plastic stocks is fairly easy on the EE or at Sigforums, etc.



we'll see we'll see. I got a trade offer that includes a used blued 220. I might go for it cause its like a a third the price of the new SS one with a rail that I fondled.

gonna have to go out for trigger work and custom thin grips if i do get it though.....
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:46:57 PM EDT
First gun was a 220, so I might have a soft spot, but I put Hogue rubber grips on it, they're a touch bulky and tacky so definately not for carry but like some folks have said, 100% reliable for me. I also have a 229R DAK which I'm head over heels for, came with a short trigger and night sights from Ordnance Outsellers (call James and you'll be happy). I'm used to the DA/SA trigger from work, but I love the DAK trigger on a gun for me, and that new compact/stainless/DAK 220R might be the best all around gun I've seen come out in a while.

On the other hand I just ordered a 1* from YoBo.

Besides the right answer around here is apparently always: both.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:17:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By drew5337:
P220's are really tough to find fault in.



Let me help you!

1. Double/single trigger pull. With a mushy single pull
2. Generally overly complex weapon. WAY TOO many buttons, knob, and levers on the thing.
3. Light primer strikes. Had this happen with Lotboy's 220. pulled the trigger a couple of times, and
then gave up, put the round in my 1911 and BANG!
4. The usual SIG failure to lockback the slide on the last round.

YMMV!



1. Your opinion and many others too. I find the trigger to be just fine out of box, and I'm used to revolver triggers.

2. No more than a 1911

3. Haven't experienced a light primer strike.

4. I certainly wouldn't call it a USUAL problem. More often than not, the slide failing tolock back has to do with people letting their thumb ride on the slide release. That's not the guns fault but the user
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 2:37:43 PM EDT
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