Posted: 7/6/2008 6:34:15 PM EDT
Alright I have a Glock 23C 3rd Gen. It's pretty new, has around 400-500 rounds through it at most. And I have NO IDEA where it's shooting. My brother and I have both tried and it's very hard for us to hit paper at 25 yards with it. It has "TRU DOT" tritium night sights installed (they were on the gun when I bough it, as well as a 3.5lb disconnector, extended slide release, and grip plug). This is my SHTF pistol and going to be my carry pistol as well. It's also my "nightstand" pistol. But I wouldnt trust myself with it if I don't know where it's hitting. What can I do to fix this problem? 
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Are the sights that far off? Is that even possible? Has it been boresighted? Have you disassembled it and looked for anything out of the ordinary? My two Glocks (20 and 29) are far more accurate than I am. The 20 is every bit as accurate as a friend's custom 1911. -p. |
+1 25 yards is not the easiest shot to make with a handgun. If you don't have alot of handgun shooting experience chances are you're going to miss at 25 yards. Move closer to the target. Start at 6ft. Shoot the target see where the impact hits. Move back to 5 yards shoot and look at the impact. Keep working your way back until you're at 25 yards. Chances are you have a flinch or a pre- ignition push which isn't all that noticable at close ranges but at 25 yards will miss the target. I personally dislike Glocks but I have yet to hear of 1 that isn't as or more accurate then the shooter. Good Luck. |
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25 yards is as close as we can put the target in at our range lol. But next time we go, I'll stand close if no one else is on the line. I have experience shooting pistols lol. I've never REALLY "trained" with one, though. My brother has much more experience with it than I do. He was having the same trouble. I have not boresighted it. Nothing out of the ordinary that I've seen in the internals. |
Do you have experience with Glocks? Their triggers are hated by many but they are nice when you figure them out. |
A little. My brother owned a Gen 1 Glock 19 a while ago, but it had the stock trigger on it. I really like the trigger on my G23C though. |
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Get a bigger target, one of the "Orson Wells" type, or a huge piece of butcher paper or cardboard and put that up when you put your target up. You should be able to see the rounds hit outside of the target paper by doing this. In addition, try shooting from a rest, or a backpack, or a sandbag, or something other than offhand until you know where it patterns. A lot of glocks will shoot high for most people until they get used to them. At least in my personal experience of teaching people to shoot glocks. |
Are you allowed to setup a target closer than 25 yards or is this a rule at that range you are shooting at? If you are allowed to setup targets closer and are able to use multiple targets, try that out. I like to setup a couple targets at different distances so that I don't have to move things around much and to save time. Usually I have one target at 7 yards and another at 15 yards which is the distance most of my pistols are sighted in at the factory. Good luck. |
At the range I go to, there are holes in the ground that you put the target stand posts into. The closest one is 25 yards. |
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BD, I'd refrain from calling/using this as you SHTF/nightstand pistol until you determine the POA/POI from contact to at least 25 yards. Going to make the assumption that there isn't anything wrong mechanically with the pistol. Move away from the bench and walk up to the target. If that's going to be an ongoing problem then I'd suggest you build a portable target stand (costs less than $20 worth of 1x4 and screws). Use a B21, IDPA, Paladin, IPSC, M9, etc target. Work back to 50 yards and noting the change on POA/POI. Keeping them in the "X", "A", or 5/5 zones at 50 is quite doable with basic marksmanship skills training. Go slow at first and then start to increase speed/distance as skill improves. The two best recommendations that I can make are; a) Seek basic marksmanship and CQB training b) Buy a shot timer The picture you provided shows several possible problem areas. Your shoulders appear to be rolled high, non-dominant hand grip appears to be low, elbow on non-dominant hand is bent, thumb on dominant hand appears to be riding low on the frame, head is rolled forward, hips appear to not be square to target (rolled to the right). All of which make it harder for you to control the weapon and break the shot. Hitting paper/steel at 50 yards can be done quite effortlessly with solid basic marksmanship skills (I've made many a hit on 10x12 inch plates at 200+ yards using a bone stock G21 and WWB 230gr ball). A shot timer will help you in drills and progression in training. Use it to record your times and note improvement. When you note that you're not shooting any faster at 3 yards than the past few range sessions and your marksmanship hasn't suffered, then stretch it back to 7 yards and begin again. It takes time to develop these skills but its well worth it. The chart/target that COSteve provided is quite useful. |
Thank you for the advice!! About my shooting stance. Do you have any tips on how the RIGHT way is? I just tried using a higher hold with my non-dominant hand and it seems like I can hold the pistol much steadier that way. |
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First off. Let me critique the grip and trigger finger in that pic. Dry fire the glock (IT will NOT hurt the pistol.) atleast 100 times at a small target using the grip described below. Start by pointing your left thumb at the target, then bring the pistol over to it with your finger off the trigger. Both thumb and trigger finger should end up high on the frame forward of the trigger. Both thumb and trigger finger are pointed at the target. Your palm of the left hand should fit neatly against the exposed grip and your fingers should be able to lay around and over your shooting hands fingers comfortably. The trigger finger is then slipped in and the trigger is pressed with the tip of the finger just behind the finger nail. This allows for a straight to the rear pull. I recommend that you bench the pistol and shoot from a squatting or kneeling position. To find its mechanical Zero. Then stand load three rounds in a mag and practice like that thru a entire 50 rounds. Once you have trained your trigger finger tip to pull straigt to the rear then practice as normal. |
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No problem. Stance, that I prefer, is a "modified" Isosceles stance. What you appear to be performing is a weaver based stance and while it has its advantages many find the Isosceles stance easier to learn on and adapt the Weaver to the situation as demanded. Here is how I do it: 1. Stand with feet slightly under shoulder wide apart 2. Place one foot slightly ahead of the other (where the heel of the forward foot is even with the toe of the rearward foot). 3. Keep your hips square to the target and roll them forward. 4. Relax you shoulders and keep your chest over your hips (not leaning forward or rearward). 5. Neck straight. 6. Both arms straight out rolling the wrists in slightly to "lock" them. We're not not talking IRON MAN SUPER HULK here, you're not going to defeat recoil so you must work with it and adapt yourself to recover quicker with it. Turning them in will keep them "locked" enough to keep you from limp wristing. 7. Dominant hand as high on the frame as you can get it, with enough grip to hold the weapon. Thumb pointing towards threat. 8. Non-dominant hand as high up on the dominant hand as possible applying most of the grip (think along the line of 60/40 percent with the non-dominant hand supplying 60% of the grip). Thumb pointing towards threat. 9. Bring the pistol up to your line of sight, don't drop your head to met the pistol. 10. Keep both eyes open, Popeye would have made a terrible marksman. 11. Develop a good breathing routine and break the shot at the bottom of the exhale if possible. 12. Press the trigger with the pad of the index finger to the rear. Wounded drills call for variations and modifications to the above as does shooting on the move and certain situations but the above is a good foundation. The above is a right way, not THE right way. There is no RIGHT way but there many wrong ways. |
While these are certainly important and included in the fundamentals, there are other factors that need to be addressed. There's more to hitting the "X" than just trigger control and sight alignment such as; * Stance * Grip * Breathing rhythm * Sight Picture and Sight Alignment * Trigger Control * Follow Through All work in concert to put the round on target whether you're shooting NRA National Match Pistol, IDPA course of fire, or defending your family at Wal-Mart. You dedicate the amount of focus ad time to each given the situation. |
What does stance or grip have anything to do with hitting a bullseye? While they are all necessary techniques for shooting fast, they do not affect making a bullseye. Watch shooting missology and youll understand that the only 2 things that affect the bullet going through the bullseye are if you pull the trigger correctly and the sights are aligned, where else will the bullet go? |
Okay... Stance is the foundation, your shooting platform that stabilizes you and allows you to acquire that sight alignment/picture. If you don't think that a solid stance is important think about this. Stand with one foot in front of the other, heel to toe, and try to acquire a solid sight alignment/picture. You have to devote more energy and attention to maintaining balance than you would if utilizing a good, solid stance that supports you. Stance is part of the basics, the fundamentals of good marksmanship. Your grip on the weapon is one of your last direct interfaces with it. It controls everything... everything. Sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control, recoil recovery, etcetera are all controlled by grip. Thumbing, too much thumb, will push the gun to the right which breaks your sight alignment and the shot will go to the right of center. Tightening your fingers will cause it to shoot low left. Tightening your whole grip will cause it to shoot low right. Grip is part of the basics. Breathing not only effects body movement and thus sight picture, but oxygenates the blood and that has a direct impact on the eyes and their ability to focus. Body movement can be minimized with breath control and a proper stance to support the body. The oxygenated blood helps the eyes focus on the sights/target and also helps you to manage stress which can directly relate to trigger control since we loose our fine motor skills under duress. Breathing is part of the basics. Sight picture and sight alignment go hand in hand. No matter how good my sight alignment is, I have to be pointing to the correct POI/POA. That goes to sight picture and knowing where to hold to make the hit. Sight alignment/picture are part of the basics. Trigger control is paramount as well as it is the final physical link between us, the shooter, and the weapon. The trigger should be press smoothly to the rear on the pad of the index finger. You finger should be free of the frame, not dragging. Slapping, jerking, too much or too little of the trigger finger will cause your shot to move. Trigger control is part of the basics. Follow through is paramount in that it is the finally of the combination of fundamentals to deliver a shot on target. The failure of follow though can seen in the lack of focus after one breaks the shot (immediately lowers head or pistol, flinches, exhales/inhales when the shot breaks, etcetera). If you do everything above right and fail to follow through the shot IS going to go somewhere that you didn't intend on it going. Follow through is part of the basics. While I appreciate your invitation to watch a movie about shooting, I prefer to actually go shooting. The fundamentals all work in concert with each other to put the shot on target. They are flexible (for example: speed will give into precision and precision will give into speed) depending on the need. But they must all be there to some degree to support the other to make the shot. |
Stance has absolutely no bearing to where the bullet goes when it leave the gun. I can be standing on one foot but if I can keep a good sight picture/alignment and pull the trigger correctly it will still be a bullseye. Grip also has no bearing on where the bullet goes when it leaves the gun. You can hold the gun with 2 fingers, upside down, sideways one handed, if your sight alignment/sight picture is right and you pull the trigger correctly it will be a bullseye. Trigger control is the most important part of shooting, but it doesnt matter what part of the finger is on the trigger. In the video the instructor shoots with a ink pen, his pinky, his thumb, it doesn't matter what you pull the trigger with, as long as its correctly pulled straight back. Follow through is a part of proper sight alignment/sight picture. As I said, everything you mentioned is definitely required to be a good shooter. But the only 2 things that directly affect you hitting a bullseye is trigger control and sight picture/alignment. |
By that idealogy, neither does sight alignment or trigger control. You are a system. The weapon is a system. These two systems must work together using all of the fundamentals to obtain a repeatable result. You can argue with me, Todd Jarrett, Brian Enos, Erik Lawrence, Rob Leatham, the United States Army Marksmanship Unit, the United States Marksmanship Training Unit, and all the instructors at all of the shooting institutes until the cows come home if you wish. We're all wrong and you're right  .Educational Reading: United States Army Marksmanship Unit Pistol Training Guide United States Marine Corps Pistol Marksmanship Glock FAQ Pistol Marksmanship Fundamentals Encylopedia of Bullseye Pistol: Fundamentals of Pistol marksmanship Arizona Defensive Firearms Training: Fundamentals of Pistol Marksmanship See a trend there spanky?? |
+1, FTW,QTF, This guy knows what he is talking about, ETC. This is the BEST advice anyone has given you, this is the advice I would start with. FWIW, stance and perfect firing positions are great when playing GAMES, but in a real gunfight, don't count on the situation allowing perfect stances, etc. If thats all you train for, then your gonna be toast when you take a round in the knee and find yourself fighting from the ground, or firing over or around cover that is not symmetrical. Front sight, Press, is a hell of alot more important than equal foot spacing and an evenly distributed stance. Yeah, you may loose a fraction of accuracy because of the imperfect stance, but then again, you arent shooting in a game where that last 1/4 inch of accuracy is paramount. The .5 seconds you save by NOT trying to develop a perfect, textbook shooting game stance, allowing you to deliver rounds on target sooner, may be the the .5 second that determines if you live or die. |
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C_Rion, While I understand what you're saying, stance doesn't have to be perfect. Just stable. Look at any of the shooters that I mentioned above and their technique while shooting on the move. Watch the AMU or MTU slide through the CoF... but they stop and come square to the target. Go to any institute and listen to what their instructors teach. Move, yes you must keep moving but you have to keep it stable too. Theres a balance between speed and precision that must be met. I take martial arts. In those arts we practice kata or "drills". We practice the same stance over and over again in every kata until it just happens naturally. You don't have to think about where your feet are and your hips in relation to the threat. They naturally align from muscle memory. Much is the same in shooting. You will defalt to your habits and training. It'll come naturally. |
| Once again, thats nice for games and square range instruction. THe USAMU CQC course does NOT emphasize stance. We fire turned to the left, turned to the right, squared up, around cover, kneeling, standing, running towards, running away, and running parallel to. The only time we "squared up" was running towards and away from the target. Parallel moving engagements, the upper body turned towards the target, the body keeps moving forward. Threat targets were engaged in a while in a staionary position by turning the upper body towards the threat, not by "squaring up your whole body. ID, front sight, engage. Stance isn't anywhere in there. Edit: Asshole end statement removed |
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I understand that, but you do emphasize stability and control of the weapon and yourself to facilitate the shot... correct? And what we're talking about here concerning the OP is basic marksmanship and in your training, stance or STABILITY was addressed... correct? Stance is not an immoveable preset placement of feet. It is the platform for stability, whether stationary or mobile, to allow you to apply the remaining fundamentals to complete the firing process. Shooting on the move dictates certain changes in... stance to move. You roll on the balls of the feet when advancing towards or retreating away from the threat... that's a technique to maintain stability. You move your feet laterally in a shuffle motion instead of crossing them to maintain stability, a movement technique to maintain stability. Turning left/right drills still call for stability to execute the shot whether stationary or on the move. But what I was primarily addressing to the OP was BASIC marksmanship skills and having some degree of stability is one of the requirements. |
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Once again we are entering the ionosphere of weapons craft. Yes I too have played equilibrium and posed and fired at different angles. Did I rapid fire my Glock 21 off hand at a 90 degree, on foot off the ground ? No, Because I wont hit anything with the second or third shot. For consistent repeatable accuracy in and out of "Combat " A proper grip and stance are the basics and should be taught. |
| Edited Because: My response was unbecoming and unprofessional. It was a reply that should have been behind closed doors (IM), if at all. Not in open forum where it would distract from the exchange of assiatance to the original poster seeking assitance. Im not a hothead in real life and don't want to give that impression online. Blanco_ Diablo, as well as everyone else involved in the tread, I apoligize for the disruption. Thank folks. |
Well, I dunno if this counts, but I tried the higher grip on the pistol thing and the "modified iscoceles" stance described on page 1 with a .357 Ruger revolver, and it worked pretty well. Now I just need some .40 
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Whoa! Who stole the old Lee target and put their name on it? |