Posted: 3/16/2005 2:19:16 AM EDT
|
I should probably post this in the general form, but I am a Glock man and I see a lot of "should I get a "C" model questions. Now before I go any further and piss someone off, this is just my 2 cents nothing more! Admittedly I have never owned or shot a “C” model Glock and here is why: When I was a little younger and more naive in the ways of defensive firearms, I entertained the idea until I talked to several knowledgeable shooters and decided to follow their advice. The issue at hand is does a compensated or ported handgun make a good defensive pistol? There are many who say yes, or it makes no difference and they may very well be correct. This is what I have to say on the subject. First is that statistically most gun fights take place at “bad breath” distance under low light cond. Now do you want to fire a “C” model held close at chest level while doing a palm strike or “speed rock” tech.? I understand that this is probably not common but when training you train for the worst case and hope for the best. Second is the possible increase in muzzle flash obscuring your night vision (not your NVGs but your natural vision). I could go on but for simplicity I will just give you those two to ponder. Now we come to the range. Most ranges do not permit realistic combat training so we go else ware. Usually this is under ideal conditions sunny, warm, when we are feeling good. Not in the rain at dusk when you are dog tired, ect. Under the ideal conditions we lull ourselves into believing that our equipment and/or training techniques are up to the task. I am posting this not to create a shit storm of replies but rather to open a discussion on equipment and tactics. I also understand that not everyone conducts range training for a defensive or combat situation. I shoot a lot on my own for the pure enjoyment of it, but I also train for the “bad thing” both personally and professionally. I strongly recommend that anyone who owns a firearm (any type) for self defense do similar. Like I said, just my two cents. Contractor, Out |
|
Glock C models do not destroy the night vision of the C user. I've got an issued C 40 that I've trained extensively with in darkness. You focus on the front sight not the vents. This is one of the great myths of our time IMO. Would I want to hold it next to my face and direct the vents into my eyes? No. But I've fired it from the retention position, canted outward, and it works fine. It's a fine duty pistol. My first choice? No. Dave Williams |
|
I have an extensive background in training people with "C" model Glocks. It's much a do about nothing. The only time it'll come into play is as you described, retention shooting. Years prior to our getting "C" Glocks, I taught a modified "Speed Cant". The modification was tilting the pistol outboard at a 45 to 90 degree angle. The reason for this is "Interuption of Slide Speed", the number one malfunction problem with pistols (followed by "Improper Lubrication"). Interuption of slide speed takes many forms. If your pistol is canted outboard, the slide cycles on the outside ouf your fore arm. If your wearing a jacket, vest, coat, have boos or anything else that the slide would hit if you were firing straight vertical. When we went to "C" Glocks, this transitioned perfectly. The vents are angled away from the shooter. Another benifit to canting the pistol outboard 45 degrees is your arms are stronger at the 45 degree marks then vertical. Rocking the pistol over the holster, pressing your wrist and the butt of the pistol into you ribs canted at a 45 degree angle eliminates "Limp Wristing", which is also causing "Interuption of Slide Speed". Bottom line, too each their own. Carry a gun, any gun |
|
SkagSig40 I don't think you should be worried about the low light shooting with the 22C. Many people do it and report no problems. A variable in low light is the ammo you shoot. Most "range" or "plinking" ammo is loaded different than dedicated "duty" or "self-defense" ammo. A good thing to do when selecting you self-defense loads is to carry what the law enforcement boys are carrying. Most of this ammo is loaded with powder that is designed to reduce excess flash. The body position mentioned previously has to do with realistic self-defense or combat situations. You see most people on the range shooting the 10 ring to shreds with a classic "Weaver" or "Isosceles" stance and a two hand grip. This is the ideal shooting position (minus hard cover). However combat is less than ideal and you seldom have the opportunity to be in a “proper” shooting stance. Train one handed -both strong and weak. Do reloads two handed, strong hand only, and weak hand only. Clear malfunctions in those drills (start with dummy rounds). The body position that I mentioned in my original post is for an up-close and personal shooting situation. Something like they BG is in your face and you have to do a palm strike or a punch with your support hand while drawing the pistol. You will not have time to acquire a good two hand grip and extend both arms. What you will have to do is fire your weapon from what is called the retention or ready position. My concern is that a ported or compensated weapon will expel hot gases, unburnt powder ect into your own face and eyes. This is not to say that you do not train in the classic shooting stance or position, just that you incorporate more into your training. We could go on and on. Working around vehicles, shooting one handed while dragging an injured comrade or family member to safety. IMHO porting a handgun is a sales gimmick unless it is on a magnum caliber. Put the words tactical or elite on something or just make it look "cool" and people will trip over themselves to get one. |
|
How long do you think the flash out of the vents lasts and how bright in lumens do you think it is? Now how does that compare to the ability of the eye to react? I'll give you the answer since you are posting about the c models even though you 1) Never shot one 2) Never owned one 3) Never researched the phsysiology of the eye to see if this is realistic. 4) Never talked to several folks who own the c models and have perfromed the drills you in question. The extra flash just doesn't matter. |
|
Glockafeller You are either reading to much into my two posts, or are taking it out of context. Nowhere did I say that I have not talked to people who own “C” models and/or have conducted the previously mentioned training. Nor did I say what I have or have not studied about the human eye. I did not mention lumens because it is not a matter of light measurement or duration. I believe the reason I stated for never owning one was talking to other shooter. You are making the assumption that those shooter did not own or shoot one either – incorrect. I posted about “C” model Glocks because this is the Glock site and I am a Glock shooter. Does that mean that I have not shot a ported or compensated pistol? It might not be a Glock “C” but the concept is the same. Admittedly in my first post I used the word “flash” without explaining further. I tried to clear this up on my second post. So here it goes again! The flash brings with it hot gasses, unburnt powder ect. The extent of which varies greatly with the ammo used. I have done enough night firing drills, retention drills and the like with various weapons from revolvers to M4A1s on full auto to tell you that muzzle flash does distract from a shooters natural night vision. To what extent this occurs is dependent on the individual. Not everyone has the same vision right? Is it possible that not everyone experiences the same degree (if any) of loss of night vision? |
Just curious has any one here shot a "C" model from a retention position and did it throw stuff in your eyes or burn you? I am asking because I am thinking about getting one. It seems like every one still who has shot a Glock "c" model has had no problems. If someone has had problems with a "c" model it would be interesting to hear. Sorry if I missed a post. I would think that the angle of the ports would have a great deal to do with it and that it would not be the same with every compensated firearm. Just speculation however that is why I asked if the model c shooters had any problems. 
|
|
If some SEAL team, Special Forces, or LAPD SWAT team issued Glock C pistols, how many people around here would run out and buy 2 or 3? I bet more of you than will admit! I have a Glock 23C & 32C, I have shot them at night with & without a white light, my night vision was not affected either way! I have not shot the pistols near my face, I wouldn't fire any pistol near my face on purpose! A non-ported pistol, although not as bad, still has muzzle flash, which when next to the body or face, could still burn you! Some worry too much about nothing, if you don't want a "C" Glock, don't get one, but let the rest of us who own them worry about if they suit our self-defense purposes! Mine fits my needs just fine thank you! teamroper |
|
Several of my guys have the C models and I own one also. I have not had any probs with increased flash out the vents in low light conditions. I have unfortunately fired mine while forgetting my glasses and gas and crud does come up. As I can see a time when you wouldn't be wearing glasses on the street (if you don't need them), I could see this as a problem. I could also forsee a problem in a tactical scenario and the guy behind you has a C model and the vents are right next to you... For the last reason, I put a non comped barrel in my gun when I carried the 22C. I since switched to the 21 and don't have to worry! |
| No way I would use one for serious work. You can train to shoot from the proper "retention" position all day, but training rarely looks like an actual fight. One should try to KISS. Thinking about muzzle discipline and compensator discipline doesn't match the KISS principle very well. |
| even in training i don't alway get in proper retention position all the time. How I train we yell fight commands at random. I could be hanging new targets when my partner issues the fight command, drop my shit and engage the target i just stapled up then run around and do the "hot casing down my shirt" dance. |
|
I carry a G20C, and have shot my friends G20,who is a Police Officer. The C reduced felt recoil 20-25% compared to the standard 20, depending on ammo. We shot the Glocks, swithcing back and forth using Federal 180 Gr. Winchester175 Gr. silver tip and Texas ammo of 180 Gr. www.texas-ammo.com/ammun.htm#10mm In general the standard is a little more "snappy" at the muzzle, while the C has a cushy pushing feeling into the palm, Nnniiiiiiiiiiiccceeeeeee. I like the C better and I carry it on a daily basis. with the Texas ammo of 180 Gr. As for all the techincal arguments pro and con concerning "C's", you could take it as far as "why carry an auto at all ?" Since if you get into tight quarters combat shooting and push the muzzle into the bad guys body, it would rack the slide back slightly and out of battery. better to carry a wheel gun. But should the hammer be bobbed? I mean it could get snagged on your clothes or what ever in a struggle. Get my point? Bottom line is, carry a quality handgun, train with it, and know what it can and can not do. And all the talk about muzzle flash on the owner, hell I might have a little muzzle flash, but that bad guys gonna have muzzle flash AND two big holes in his torso from 10mm rounds @ 728 energy at that muzzle travleing at 1350 fps
|
| One thing I think that confuses people who do not own C models is that this gun is really ported, not compensated. Compensated, as I understand it refers to a slot perpendicular to the barrel running most of its width. This might affect night vision. The slots on the C models are parallel to the bore and not in line with the front sight. This is why they do not affect night vision. |
No, they do not effect night vision because an orange/red muzzle flash is not particularly damaging to night vision. |
|
| I would quote Kolt but I am half ass computer illiterate. He has a point about the wheel gun vs. auto. Most of the proponents of revolvers have said something similar and I know of a few old timers that still use a snubby as a hide out or back up gun for this reason. A five shot Smith is today’s equivalent of the derringer. Not that it would be my only carry gun, just a backup to my forty. I don’t know what has taken me so long to get one but it is the next handgun on my list. |
|
I don't own any wheel guns, just 3 Glocks. Just trying to make a point about the pros and cons of any gun feature and how the arguments could never end. The G20C suits my needs and the ports work and are not a gimmick. And as far as "Combat" jacks comments on not putting the pistol against the bad guys body, let me just say this about REAL combat. I know and worked with a friend who was Vietnam vet, took 3 AK rounds to the back and tore out about 2 pounds of muscle @ the shoulder blade. He went on to become a Phila. police officer, swat team member, VIP body guard at the fed level. He carried a snub .38 with bobbed hammer. He called it his "belly gun". His job was to seek out the bad guy and some times get up close and personal, and he did. MY JOB is to avoid trouble, but if it finds me I'll have the G20c, back peddling and firing. 
|
That is a better reason than mine. I would like to think that one day we will have dispelled these myths completely and people will appreciate the C models for what they offer. Sure, you have to remember to cant the gun when firing from retention but this is a good idea with any gun as you can use stronger muscles when your wrist is turned as previously mentioned. |