Posted: 5/6/2010 4:02:57 AM EDT
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I own a liquor store in Florida in a pretty bad part of town. I've carried concealed there for 16 years and we have never been robbed, although every other business in the center has at one time. There seems to be a lot more robberies in the county lately with some clerks getting killed for no reason even after giving up the money.
I've been thinking about going to open carry inside the store. My concerns are will it give me an advantage if there is a robbery? Will it cause more problems with the customers who might try and start stuff over it? Any advice either way? |
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To me if a BG is going to rob your establishment open carry is going to encourage him to shoot first and ask questions later. It might be a deterrent but to some nuts it might be a challenge. I think you also hit it with scaring some customers away as well, like it or not you might keep a good percentage of your base away if you wear a gun and I don't know if it is worth it or not to you to loose them. I would also think CCW would give somewhat of a tactical advantage and surprise over any would be robber. |
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I am friends with a family that owns a corner bodega in a rough North Philadelphia neighborhood. The owner and two oldest sons carried concealed while working for a couple years. Then, after some bodega robberies in the area last year, they began to open carry. The father of the family contacted me around that time to ask about a shotgun for store defense and if he could legaly have it mounted in plain sight behind the protective plexiglass barrier in front of the register area.
He now has an extended mag 870 'on display' behind the glass, with a loaded side saddle for full visual effect. They get a lot of comments on it from neighborhood folks, most to the effect of, "Papi don't f––-k around"; "Ain't nobody 'bout to rob Papi 'cuz they know they get killed." So I say go open carry. |
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Quoted: I would also think CCW would give somewhat of a tactical advantage and surprise over any would be robber. Quoted: 1) Seems to me it gives-up the element of surprise. 2) It also seems that if they have started shooting clerks for no reason after the money has been surrendered, they would just shoot you on site and then get the money(and take your gun). How exactly does "the element of surprise" help you in this case? For that matter, how does "the element of surprise" ever help you when carrying? To me, the ability to draw quickly on a bad guy outweighs my desire to see a surprised look on his face. If anything, I'd think that "surprising" a jittery crack fiend who's robbing a liquor store for his next fix might also make him MORE likely to shoot. I'd rather have him think twice while casing the place. I say OC. |
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It is really up to you.
There are serious pros and cons of each to consider, but I'm slightly leaning towards CC. This is because of the possibility of getting shot on the spot to "take you out of the equation." While it may deter some to OC, the fool robbing a Quik-E-Mart already isn't the brightest bulb in the box. If you do CC, dress around it so your draw is as quick as possible. |
| Personally I would think CC would be better, but I would have another mounted right under the counter in a holster ready to go. You could have it so you could grab it under the counter without really giving away that you are going for a gun (like right under the cash register) |
| If they are casing places to rob and they see you open carrying then they may stay away (or if they are really high then they might assume that you have something worth taking). If they just run in to rob the store without any criminal due dilligence then you will be the first person that they target because you are an immediate threat (assuming open carry). If you are willing to accept that you will be a target then open carry. For the guy that doesn't think that the element of surprise is a good idea...the suprise is the hot lead not the visual of the gun. With three people carrying someone should be able to take the guy down by suprise. |
| I agree with some of the previous posters id suggest staying concealed not for surprise factor but because where the open carry will deter some it will not deter all. and i guess either way OC or CC when SHTF someones getting shot and hopefully it isnt you. is it a sole proprietor or does yoru family help? Id suggest asking your family too. |
The replies about losing tactical advantage due to open carry vs. concealed carry are pure crap imo. Once you're facing the barrel of a gun you have NO tactical advantage as you are now behind the 8 ball.  What you're looking for is deterrence. Making yourself a HARD target to hit so as to reduce the probability of robbery. Open carry is but a small part of the package. Packing a .38 2" Taurus in an uncle mikes $5 nylon holster isn't going to quite give the impression you want to make. You need to project the image of an observant individual carrying a firearm that you know how to use. A QUALITY full size service pistol worn on the hip in a QUALITY holster along with the training to use it will provide the deterrence effect you're looking for. A man that can look other men in the eye and project his readiness to defend what's his is what provides the effect of deterrence. You should also have numerous, obviously displayed Video surveillance cameras in place (a customer observable moniter that allows patrons to see themselves on camera is a BIG +). Knowing you'll be caught is, in and of itself a deterrence. |
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Quoted:
To those spouting that crap about the OCer being the first one shot, your argument is even further invalid here. A robber is already going to focus their attention on the guy behind the counter since he's the one who controls the cash. And since the OP is the one that's going to be behind the counter, it is a valid argument since the robbers attention will be focused on him. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I think my main concern with OC is will it make the rowdy customers see me wearing the gun as a challenge towards them. THey might want to show off to their friends that they're not scared of a gun.
I don't think it will make me lose any customers so I'm not concerned about that. |
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Quoted: I think my main concern with OC is will it make the rowdy customers see me wearing the gun as a challenge towards them. THey might want to show off to their friends that they're not scared of a gun. I don't think it will make me lose any customers so I'm not concerned about that. Your demeanor while open carrying is going to be what dictates how others interact with you. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
To those spouting that crap about the OCer being the first one shot, your argument is even further invalid here. A robber is already going to focus their attention on the guy behind the counter since he's the one who controls the cash. And since the OP is the one that's going to be behind the counter, it is a valid argument since the robbers attention will be focused on him. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Its invalid because the robbers attention will be on the guy behind the counter whether he OCs or not. |
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OC vs CC... do which ever you're most comfortable with. I'd be concerned about losing customers with OC, depending on the area your store is located. Knowing North Philly, which an earlier poster mentioned, I'd have no qualms OC'ing if I owned a store there! Personally, I'd CC in most situations.
The ideas of getting soft body armor and hiding a pistol behind the counter might be something to think about. SGB is spot on with deterrence. You need to portray your store as a difficult target. Visible functional cameras are a first step. It couldn't hurt to put an NRA, or other gun-related, sticker on the front door too. |
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Quoted:
OC vs CC... do which ever you're most comfortable with. I'd be concerned about losing customers with OC, depending on the area your store is located. Knowing North Philly, which an earlier poster mentioned, I'd have no qualms OC'ing if I owned a store there! Personally, I'd CC in most situations. The ideas of getting soft body armor and hiding a pistol behind the counter might be something to think about. SGB is spot on with deterrence. You need to portray your store as a difficult target. Visible functional cameras are a first step. It couldn't hurt to put an NRA, or other gun-related, sticker on the front door too. I'd have my CCW piece and keep one right under the cash register too. I'd rather be able to get to it quick than have some "surprising" efffect. |
| You may want to consider a good holster with a covering vest or long shirt to cover the holster. That way you've got a OWB, but its not obvious that your open carrying, but you still have access to it quickly if you need it. Either way you may want to practice drawing at home or something like IDPA or range drills. |
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Quoted:
To me if a BG is going to rob your establishment open carry is going to encourage him to shoot first and ask questions later. It might be a deterrent but to some nuts it might be a challenge. I think you also hit it with scaring some customers away as well, like it or not you might keep a good percentage of your base away if you wear a gun and I don't know if it is worth it or not to you to loose them. I would also think CCW would give somewhat of a tactical advantage and surprise over any would be robber. Bullshit. They usually case it first. That could be a bunch of hoodlums buying 40s every now and then thinking "here's an easy mark." Let them buy their malt liquor and everytime they do they see a nice, large .45 behind that counter. Guarantee they don't think him as an easy mark and choose another target whenver they get high and are "brain" storming. |
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Quoted:
The replies about losing tactical advantage due to open carry vs. concealed carry are pure crap imo. Once you're facing the barrel of a gun you have NO tactical advantage as you are now behind the 8 ball.
What you're looking for is deterrence. Making yourself a HARD target to hit so as to reduce the probability of robbery. Open carry is but a small part of the package. Packing a .38 2" Taurus in an uncle mikes $5 nylon holster isn't going to quite give the impression you want to make. You need to project the image of an observant individual carrying a firearm that you know how to use. A QUALITY full size service pistol worn on the hip in a QUALITY holster along with the training to use it will provide the deterrence effect you're looking for. A man that can look other men in the eye and project his readiness to defend what's his is what provides the effect of deterrence. You should also have numerous, obviously displayed Video surveillance cameras in place (a customer observable moniter that allows patrons to see themselves on camera is a BIG +). Knowing you'll be caught is, in and of itself a deterrence. This, this, and more this. The junk about surprise is nonsense. If the assholes have marked him for a robbery then he's fucked already. Now he has to draw from concealment. Rarely will anyone risk an armed robbery to get at one other gun which will be pointed at them. They're in it for the quick buck. Deterrence is what you want as SGB states. A quicker draw will come in handy as well. There is no disadvantage here, only to gain. He's static, in charge of cash, and in a risky area. Concealed carry offers no benefits if open carry is allowed. |
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Quoted: The replies about losing tactical advantage due to open carry vs. concealed carry are pure crap imo. Once you're facing the barrel of a gun you have NO tactical advantage as you are now behind the 8 ball. Disagree. If you're facing a gun and you're carrying openly the first thing that's going to happen is you're going have that gun taken away and pointed at you. The crook may have a jammomatic 32 that barely works loaded with FMJ rounds. Do you really want to face your own carry gun, which you know does work and is loaded with high quality hollow points? In one case you get to keep your gun and in the other you lose it. If they decide to herd you into a backroom and shoot you at least you still have a gun to fight with. You'll probably still get shot, but you may get a shot off in return and that may save your life. The only way I'd open carry in that situation is if I also had a concealed piece as well. |
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Quoted:
The replies about losing tactical advantage due to open carry vs. concealed carry are pure crap imo. Once you're facing the barrel of a gun you have NO tactical advantage as you are now behind the 8 ball.
What you're looking for is deterrence. Making yourself a HARD target to hit so as to reduce the probability of robbery. Open carry is but a small part of the package. Packing a .38 2" Taurus in an uncle mikes $5 nylon holster isn't going to quite give the impression you want to make. You need to project the image of an observant individual carrying a firearm that you know how to use. A QUALITY full size service pistol worn on the hip in a QUALITY holster along with the training to use it will provide the deterrence effect you're looking for. A man that can look other men in the eye and project his readiness to defend what's his is what provides the effect of deterrence. You should also have numerous, obviously displayed Video surveillance cameras in place (a customer observable moniter that allows patrons to see themselves on camera is a BIG +). Knowing you'll be caught is, in and of itself a deterrence. I don't disagree with a lot of what you said but if the bad guy that walks into his store is high and didn't take the time to 'case' the store and notices his nice gun in his nice holster then then the ball game just changed. If the same guy walks in then hopefully there is time to get something between you and the bad guy. If you want detterence then put a nasty looking black 12 guage behind the counter for everyone to see. Then there attention is off of you and on the cash register and the shotgun. Ballgame in your favor. my opinion. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
The replies about losing tactical advantage due to open carry vs. concealed carry are pure crap imo. Once you're facing the barrel of a gun you have NO tactical advantage as you are now behind the 8 ball.
Disagree. If you're facing a gun and you're carrying openly the first thing that's going to happen is you're going have that gun taken away and pointed at you. The crook may have a jammomatic 32 that barely works loaded with FMJ rounds. Do you really want to face your own carry gun, which you know does work and is loaded with high quality hollow points? In one case you get to keep your gun and in the other you lose it. If they decide to herd you into a backroom and shoot you at least you still have a gun to fight with. You'll probably still get shot, but you may get a shot off in return and that may save your life. The only way I'd open carry in that situation is if I also had a concealed piece as well. There are many good points in this thread. I can certainly see the advantages to both OC or CC. ARFCOM member blitz308 used the element of surprise to his advantage. It sounds like in his situation they were at least a minute or two into the robbery before he engaged the perp. Had he been open carrying his hand would have been forced sooner at perhaps a less opportune time. Personally I'd rather pick the moment if possible rather than having the BG seeing an OC gun and trying to seize it by force. OP, soft body armor might not be a bad idea either if the threat is that real. Years ago I was forced to work in a very bad area with a lot of things stacked against me. One of the times we had the local PD out they told me that I was "crazy" and asked me if I knew what the "locals" would do if they knew what we had there. Honestly he put a little fright into me and I went and bought a IIIA vest the next day and I never came or left again without wearing it. It was cheap insurance, was good piece of mind, boosted my confidence helping my fighting mindset plus it felt like a great big hug.  
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Lot's of argument about the advantage of having surprise............. arguments that I dare to say no one can support with anything other than conjecture. Open carry or concealed carry, situational awareness must always be present. The point of Open Carry in this instance is to provide DETERRENCE. Y'all know.......... presenting a hard target that offers little to no opportunity of success. Developing a strategy that minimizes the perception of opportunity for success is what DETERRENCE is all about. In LE and Security work a squared away, professional presentation of authority minimizes the need to use force. Few wish to tempt fate when they believe the Officer is capable of handing them their ass in a confrontation. The same concept applies to civilian Open Carry, if you look like someone not to fuck with most people won't. This doesn't necessitate a demeanor of being rude or being a hard ass, it necessitates a demeanor of being confident and assertive. ARFCOM member blitz308 used the element of surprise to his advantage. Blitz308 didn't act until the perp discovered that he was armed, not to criticize but a lack of training and mental preparation to engage a lethal threat but Blitz308 at a severe disadvantage. Shear guts and luck saved the day for him. |
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I vote OC but CC would work as well. OC/CC, it doesn't matter; the criminals focus is already going to be on you because you have access to what they want. If they are smart enough to bring a second person at least one's focus will be on you while the other rounds up the customers.
If someone comes in and points a gun at me their intentions are pretty clear anyway and I am shooting. |
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Quoted:
I own a liquor store in Florida in a pretty bad part of town. I've carried concealed there for 16 years and we have never been robbed, although every other business in the center has at one time. There seems to be a lot more robberies in the county lately with some clerks getting killed for no reason even after giving up the money. I've been thinking about going to open carry inside the store. My concerns are will it give me an advantage if there is a robbery? Will it cause more problems with the customers who might try and start stuff over it? Any advice either way? I would continue to carry concealed, because open carry by a business owner is bad PR. It is a negative statement to the patron, whether you realize it or not. It may cause a drop in your business. I would also get a decent concealable vest and wear it. I got my stuff at www.bulletproofme.com |
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Quoted: Quoted: I own a liquor store in Florida in a pretty bad part of town. I've carried concealed there for 16 years and we have never been robbed, although every other business in the center has at one time. There seems to be a lot more robberies in the county lately with some clerks getting killed for no reason even after giving up the money. I've been thinking about going to open carry inside the store. My concerns are will it give me an advantage if there is a robbery? Will it cause more problems with the customers who might try and start stuff over it? Any advice either way? I would continue to carry concealed, because open carry by a business owner is bad PR. It is a negative statement to the patron, whether you realize it or not. It may cause a drop in your business. I would also get a decent concealable vest and wear it. I got my stuff at www.bulletproofme.com Hmm... I think your priorities and mine are misaligned. My desire to not die is greater than any concern I would have about "bad PR" or a "drop in business". Additionally, open carry by a business owner is not necessarily "bad PR". In fact, in some places, it would be considered "good PR". |