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Posted: 7/24/2003 5:07:58 PM EDT
If Wisconsin ever gets a CCW, what is a good, fairly inexpensive auto that can be carried with the safety on, and the 1st shot is at "single action" 3-4 lb trigger pull?

I hate a 9 lb (cop style) trigger pull, especially on a critical first shot.

I have a SW 3913 9mm, but it can't be carried cocked on safety. If I recall the Model 1911 Colt .45 I carried in the Army could be cocked in the holster while on safety.

Was a Colt 1911 an example of a SA action? What other pistols have an exposed hammer and SA? Or has OSHA banned them?
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 5:17:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By turboman:
Was a Colt 1911 an example of a SA action? What other pistols have an exposed hammer and SA?



Yes.
Another would be the Browning Hi Power and it's clones.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:08:40 PM EDT
Yes 1911's and BHP's are single action. Good choice on SA. There is no advantage to any DA varient.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 11:08:13 AM EDT
I don't know how the DA got such a bad rap. Is it because most people learn on a 1911 and then the DA is just weird? I learned on a 226 and a USP and my first shot on a DA was always spot on. In fact, my first shot was always where I wanted it, it was my follow ups that were lacking. Maybe you guys out there who don't like DA's should actually learn how to use them before poo-pooing them.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 5:46:03 AM EDT
CZ75 and clones can be carried cocked and locked. Regards, Richard
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 1:46:15 PM EDT
Just make sure you train with what you carry. SA's can put holes in things if you don't watch what you're doing. That being said, I DEFINITELY prefer a 1911 or CZ75. The CZ only if I can't carry a 45, because the CZ97 in 45 is just so honkin' big.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 3:04:18 PM EDT
The first thing they'll tell you in concealed carry class is that if you choose to go cocked and locked with an SA then you need to be willing to practice drawing, thumbing the safety and firing at least 3000 times in order for it to be an automatic response. If you aren't willing to train that much then you should go with a Glock, Walther P99, various Sigs and others with out external safety's. The next thing they'll tell you is that a light trigger is a liability in a carry weapon. That's why I carry a Glock 27, Kel-Tec P11, Walther P99 in .40 or a Sig 2340. None have an external safety and have a long deliberate DA pull. The Kel-Tec is DAO. I've qualified with all of these weapons. You might want to rethink your requirements for real world carry.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 5:26:07 PM EDT
Is it not still the mindset of the "establishment" that ALL handguns are bad? I'd bet that most Instructors of CCW clsses are police or ex-police officers. They have been thoroughly indoctrinated in the "DA" SAFETY FIRST reasoning and it's all they really are familiar with. With our liberal Court system eager to jump on any Cop that shoots his weapon it's a natural outgrowth to make shooting as difficult as possible. You'd think accuracy would be mnore important but training is too expensive.

I'd put a lot more credence in the opinion of someone that has carried a sidearm all his life under stressful conditions (Isreali career officers, South African farmers, etc).

As you mentioned, practice makes perfect, and no one has the opportunity for 3000 rds of practice under self defense conditions. Thusly, everyone that hears this acquires the same philosophy.

"DA", I've always felt, was a legal compromise with the gun haters and the lawyers. Law Enforcement officers don't get nearly enough training for either DA or SA. ...nuff said, for now.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 7:33:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 7:35:46 PM EDT by jtw2]

Originally Posted By turboman:
Is it not still the mindset of the "establishment" that ALL handguns are bad? I'd bet that most Instructors of CCW clsses are police or ex-police officers. They have been thoroughly indoctrinated in the "DA" SAFETY FIRST reasoning and it's all they really are familiar with. With our liberal Court system eager to jump on any Cop that shoots his weapon it's a natural outgrowth to make shooting as difficult as possible. You'd think accuracy would be mnore important but training is too expensive.

I'd put a lot more credence in the opinion of someone that has carried a sidearm all his life under stressful conditions (Isreali career officers, South African farmers, etc).

As you mentioned, practice makes perfect, and no one has the opportunity for 3000 rds of practice under self defense conditions. Thusly, everyone that hears this acquires the same philosophy.

"DA", I've always felt, was a legal compromise with the gun haters and the lawyers. Law Enforcement officers don't get nearly enough training for either DA or SA. ...nuff said, for now.



No it's based on the fact that your fine motor skill are lost in a high stress situation and a 3 - 4 lb trigger is just too light under those situations. Combat shooting is staring at the front site and hammering out rounds. It isn't bullseye shooting.

Edited to add that you can get 3000 reps in with dry fire practice. It isn't necessary to fire 3k of ammo to get the muscle memory
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:08:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 9:09:06 PM EDT by turboman]
Good answer. You converted me. It will make my search for the "perfect handgun" much, much easier. Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 8:10:28 AM EDT
Just a note: the cz can be carried DA or SA. I like the option.

neat set-up
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 8:18:07 PM EDT
shotgun said,

"I don't know how the DA got such a bad rap."

Then answered his own question with,

"In fact, my first shot was always where I wanted it, it was my follow ups that were lacking."

Two distinct trigger pulls means twice as much to learn, and twice the chance to make a mistake.
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 9:53:49 AM EDT
The coast guard carries cocked and unlocked hows that for liability!!!
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 7:35:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By turboman:
Good answer. You converted me. It will make my search for the "perfect handgun" much, much easier. Thanks.



TRUTH BE TOLD ====> There is no such thing as the "Perfect Handgun"... (Though, IMHO, a Kimber 1911A1 is as close as you're going to get)

If there were, only one handgun would be owned by shooters. As we all know, most of us that can afford it (I can't right now), have more than one handgun... (but will have another soon)

My carry gun is a Bersa Thunder 380 Auto. It's a DA/SA handgun, and I prefer the SA first shot, but always trained, and qualified with a DA (5lbs) first shot, and SA (3lbs) every one thereafter. I'm still able to quickly draw, aim, & fire my DA first shot with very good accuracy every time. Granted, SA would be better, IMHO, for accuracy, but as was previously mentioned... One must be extra cautious with a SA CCW gun. My qualification target had a 3.5" ragged hole with a few fliers that pushed the overall group to 5" (likely the DA first shots) at 25 yards (75ft).

There is nothing wrong with DA/SA handguns, it is all a matter of preference. I will soon (within a year) buy a 1911 .45 ACP for fun shooting, competition, and CCW.
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