[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Road Rage (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/12/2007 2:09:35 PM EDT
|
What kind of road rage incidents while carrying have you encountered, and what did you do about it? |
| big dude came up to my window going to probably try to attempt to continue on his way of being big and such, G19 in my lap and he was instructed to get back in his f*cking car and he got real small and went and did just that. no way was i about to get pulled out of my car and get the crap beat out of me, (windows down, nice day) and i had no where to go as far as traffic was concerned (pinned f&r/l&r at red light) the original disagreement was him trying to go up the left turn only lane, pass 20 people and proceed to drive into the side of my car much to my dismay to get into my lane to go strait and avoid the wait. there was no way i was going to be even able to let him in if i tried. i avoided eye contact as he was yelling and then he got out of his jeep and walked around... had he opened my door and continued i probably would have stood my ground, and took aim, but i'm glad he left and said nothing. i doubt much of what i did was right or just, but given the circumstances i think i managed reasonably well. would i ever chase someone down? unlikely unless they hit and ran, and i would just chase long enough to get a plate # otherwise screw that, there are bigger problems in the world to bitch about. |
I may be wrong, but it doesn't sound like he drew down. He just had it in his lap. As of right now (this is due to change in a few days) in the state of Ohio, you must openley carry in your car. That or have it locked away. |
Whah? Even if you have a CCW??? 
|
Yes. It's a retarded compromise forced by our asshole ex-governor through his lackey bootlicker Highway Patrol Commissioner. In 12 hours and 10 minutes that will go away as House Bill 347 becomes law over ex-dickhead-in-chief Bob Taft's veto. 
|
Negative. Having the handgun in plain view without pointing at anyone is not brandishing. I guess you could get charged, but it should be easy to beat. "Officer, I just had my handgun on my lap in plain sight, as allowed by law". |
|
Interesting (bost scenerio and responses). I know laws vary on this from state to state, so there seems to be no general "right answer". I'm not familiar with CT state law. I'm in Texas, hold a CHL permit and am very concerned about this exact scenerio. Seems to me (in TX) you have the responsibility to attempt retreat. If that is not possible due to your circumstance, a lunitic out of his car screaming at you sure sounds life-threatening to me! If I were in this situation, I would draw down to protect myself. Assuming he backed down and the situation was over, only additional thing I would do is IMMEDIATELY call the police and file a report. Thank God I have never been in this situation. Car-jackings are also a major problem in south Texas, so drivers are also very cautious about being approached in their cars. I'd welcome any opinions from those familiar with Texas CHL law. |
| Closest Problem I had was in downtown Birmingham. A guy almost hit me by not yielding as he was pulling onto a surface road. I honked and swerved to avoid the collision. As I was stopped at the following red light he pulled up next to me and jumped out and started yelling and heading around the front of his vehicle towards me. I had my hand on my S&W 645 in the passenger seat. The light turned green before he made it around his car. I just drove off. No Draw down. |
|
The situation that was related and some of the responses are a little startling to me. Unless I'm missing something, some of you are advocating that you shoot someone because they were threatening to punch / hit you? I guess if you are truly in immediate fear for your life or in fear of immediate serious bodily harm and you think you can convince a jury (criminal and/or civil) of that, you might come out okay. Situations like this are very gray. Is your attacker a 6'10", 250# middle line-backer having a 'roid rage while you are a 4'10" 100# female? Yeah, disparity of force in a situation like this would probably be in your favor. On the other hand, are you both about the same size and joe hot-head wants to come over and yell at you a little and maybe take a poke at you? In that case, you might be better off with a can of OC in your pocket. That way, if he attacks, you spray and it works, you are much better off. If the OC doesn't work, at least you can say you tried something before you had no choice but to shoot. |
If someone is willing to leave the safety of a 2000+lb vehicle to assault me, then I think it is reasonable to believe that there is a genuine threat of severe bodily harm. Is my first response going to be to shoot them? No, but in the confined space of my vehicle I am surely going to have that option open to me quickly. Obviously I dont have data to back this up but I dont think that the type of person who gets out of their car and advances on another driver is just going to "yell at you a little and maybe take a poke at you". I havent seen anyone here who as actually pointed a weapon at the road rager, just had it ready in case SHTF. |
In Florida, the legal presumption exists that anyone who forcibly enters or attempts to enter your occupied dwelling or vehicle is doing so to inflict great bodily harm and any force, including deadly force, is authorized to stop the invasion. Road rager gets out, starts punching window or pulling on door = lights out. |
Is this not part of the "castle doctrine" you guys recently passed?? I'm very curious as we had a similar situation in KS recently. I would need to double check, but as far as I was concerned, your car is considered your home, if someone is going to force their way in, you have the right to stop them. Gundraw P.S. I'm curious about those who say he was wrong in doing what he did, what would you have done??? |
Yep, same thing here. |
Unfortunately, no. Our defense laws are not as progressive. Here in Ohio we still have a duty to retreat except in our homes. And our law does not have the automatic presumption of grave physical harm for an intruder into your home or your car. Mind you, in almost all instances a home intruder being shot is a good shoot in Ohio. |
|
In Reno, about 13-14 years ago, I had an older gentleman (used very loosely) pull out into traffic without looking, and almost t-boned my vehicle, all while he was parked on the sidewalk - illegally. Very stoopid. I honked my horn and told him to watch where he was going as I passed by, in the oncoming traffic lane while avoiding his idiotic driving habits. He was in a pickup truck with construction equipment in the bed. I went down the street a ways to turn around and park in front of my house. Knucklehead pulls in behind me in a driveway to block me in and comes out with a 4 foot 2x4 and starts banging on the hood of my car and smacking the window several times, all the while cursing me and making threats against me. I sat there with the window down an inch and my holstered Colt 1911 sitting in my lap. He goes on for several minutes trying to get me to come out and face him like a man. His words, not mine. Well, he sees the 1911 in my lap and seriously asks me if I am going to shoot him? To which I reply that would be up to him. He tells me that if I shoot him, he would kill me and we'd both be dead. I told him that would not be the case. After all, he was the one who brought a stick to a gunfight. He got back into his truck and left. I got the plate number and called PD to file a complaint. The officer thought it was hilarious that I told the offender about the "stick to a gunfight" quote. Had to call from a land line as cell phones were expensive back then. I was the victim, CCW was not law yet and the only way to legally transport a loaded firearm was open carry on body, or holstered in plain sight. No brandishing had happened and I was not charged with any crime, as I had broken no law. I have several instances where a firearm had saved my life, and never having to fire a shot. I've also pepper-sprayed several people in my time. One was an persistent beggar who could not take "no" for an answer. A shot of OC dissuaded him. |
| I was driving home late from work one night, on a fairly isolated country road. A car came flying up behind me and started tailgating me. They were swerving around in the lane, slowing down and then speeding up, until I finally slowed down to about 35 hoping they would pass. I figured they were drunk. They pulled up beside me, slowed down and I could see it was a carload of 6 guys in their 20's. They were yelling out the window as they went by (my Spanish isn't so great, so I don't know what they said). They passed, got in front of me and slammed on their brakes, and then sped up again. Then they basically stopped in the middle of the road. I went around them, partially on the shoulder and hauled ass. I knew there was a stop sign coming up, and they were starting to catch back up. I stopped at the sign and turned on my interior lights. When they pulled up behind me, right on my bumper, I held my pistol up right underneath the light so they could see it, and chambered a round. Then I went on through the stop sign like normal. They did a 180 in the middle of the road and went back the way they came. Probably not very good tactics, but it worked. Problem solved, and no one had to die. |
Bullshit. A roadrage incident is absolutely cause to have concern for one's safety. When a person starts yelling and hollaring, and then actually gets out of a vehicle to close with you in your vehicle... I ABSOLUTELY would have the weapon drawn. Like most draw-down scenarios, they are not always black and white. Once a threat has been established and you draw a weapon in response to that threat, if the threat decides that it would like to stay upon this green and blue rock, you have a responsibility not to fire. A person yelling at me and then illegally leaving his vehicle IN TRAFFIC to approach me is absolutely a possible threat. I will draw in such a scenario. If he decides in the time that I gain proper fixation of the weapon on his center mass that he doesn't want to continue his assault, I will do what I have a responsibility to do and not fire. It sounds like this angry fellow decided that throttling another motorist wasn't worth two 9mm rounds in the chest. I wouldn't have had it in my lap... I would have had it in my hand, safety off (well, in this case it was a Glock, but all my pistols have safeties because I don't own a Glock). Drawing a weapon in response to a very legitimate threat is not brandishing if you responsibly opt not to fire once the threat gains a little wisdom and appreciation of self-preservation. |
|
My personal take on "someone going to take a poke at you," is that if he DOES hit you, it is very likely that he will disable you enough that your gun is no longer available to you. A broken nose can cause blinding pain; a broken neck is even worse. And if he's attacking through the window, these are the most likely possibilities. If someone grabs you through the window, he'll prevent you from reaching for your gun. If he opens your door and drags you out of the vehicle, things will go very badly for you indeed. As pointed out before, someone in that kind of rage is not behaving logically... is in fact INCAPABLE of logical behaviour. And, IMHO, someone who starts beating on you is going to be very gratified and "empowered" by the experience, and won't stop until "great bodily harm" has indeed been committed. +1 on calling the cops first, too! |
|
Please remember everyone there is a difference between pulling your gun on someone and using it. Someone has pointed out "fear for ones life," well that doesn't exactly have to do with this. "Fear of ones life" has more to do with using your CCW by firing it. Remember that shooting someone w/o cause is murder and such, while pulling your firearm on someone w/o cause is assault. Big difference. No instances so far, guess I'm just too big and tough lookin 
|
i didn't draw down, but i had it in my lap in a way that was ready to do so. in the outskirts of hartford, it was very possible that i could have been stabbed or otherwise been in personal danger. either way, i was NOT going to be drug out of my car and issued an ass kicking. i'm sure i could have gotten some licks in but i would have been more on the defensive as he was stoked up on adrenaline and anger as well as not being able to operate a motor vehicle safely. PS. just in case i think i clicked report on your post reaching for the quote button... if so, oops. doubt anything will come of it though. |
"fear for ones life," has everything to do with it! Remember the following points: 1. - Every state's laws are somewhat different. Make sure you know YOUR state's CCW laws. 2. - Don't EVER draw your weapon if you aren't prepared to use it! 3. - React defensively, never offensively. 4. - There are differences between criminal charges and civil charges in many states. Acting legally does not mean you can't be sued in civil court. (Note: GO TEXAS CASTLE DOCTRINE!!!!!) 5. - Each situation is different. Being approached by an irate individual with a 2x4 while you are "blocked in" your car is a life-threatening situation in my book. 6. If your life is in danger: it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. |
In this situation rtec, I believe you had every right to point your gun at him and tell him to drop the weapon. At that point he could either leave or wait for police to arrive (though it sounds like you would have needed someone to call for you). Your aggressor had a weapon, which could easily be used to inflict serious bodily harm or death. The car was blocked in and to make matters worse, you had no ability to call for help. Yes, you had some protection inside your vehicle, but had he tried to gain entry to your vehicle, I believe you would have been totally justified in shooting him. My first posted response was directed more toward the story that Spam related involving a guy who was a hot-head. In my state, they are now only considering passing a "castle law" for your home. The law now requires one to attempt to retreat, though the law allows you to defend youself in your home as long as you are not one of the aggressors. But defend yourself does not mean shooting someone for trespassing or trying to steal your DVD player. And defend yourself does not mean shooting someone who wants to pick a fist fight with you. Certainly this guy was mad, left his vehicle and you were pinned in and not able to retreat. However, I know that -- in my state and perhaps many others -- if you and your aggressor are about the same size and a fist fight ensues, while you certainly have every right to defend yourself, if you shoot him, you could very well be charged with a crime. Certainly there are differences between what an LEO has to do and what a private citizen has to do. However, I do not think it a bad idea for private citizens to have at least one lesser means of force available to them. In Spam's incident, I don't think you did anything wrong by having your gun available to you. My concern would be if the aggressor came toward you and tried to open your door. Did he say anything like "I'm gonna kill you, you SOB!" etc? I think in this situation, a face full of OC would have been a good first step. |
I wasn't pointing that out to you. Just saying it in general. There's a big difference between showing your gun, pulling your gun on someone, and shooting someone. Don't worry I had that report button all the time by accident, nothing has ever happened. |
|
Once upon a time three guys were riding in a car looking for a parking spot at a mall. A van pulled out of a lot and halfway across the street, the car swerved and honked. The accident was avoided, the car went on its way. However, said van wasn't as set. He began following the car, at first seemingly out of coincidence.... After going up several rows in the lot the occupants of the car began to worry, with all sorts of traffic the next turn could lead to a box in and a confrontation. The three guys had been to the range that afternoon and there was an M-4 in the trunk and ammo in the glove box. Seeing, the van was obsessed the occupants of the car made efforts to prepare for a confrontation should the situation go down hill. A few rounds were put into a Mag and the M-4 was made ready should it be needed (there was an access hole to the trunk through the back seat). The guys disscused what to do should things go south the agreed plan was to avoid confrontation, if the guy in the van got out of his car the front seat passenger and driver would try and defuse the situation, but if their lives were compromised the rear seat passenger would present the firearm and further try to defuse the situation, firing only if things didn't get better. With some luck the guys in the car were able to out wit the van with a couple quick turns through some traffic. The guys parked, re-stored the firearm and towards the mall. The van was waiting at the entrance, the guys, now walking, went around the entrance and into another one and promptly notified mall security. A while Later upon leaving the mall to check on the car, the guys saw the van again waiting outside the mall, and were able to get a license plate number, and move the car to a different lot. The night went on without further incident. I know its not a handgun story but it seems fitting for this thread. |
He feared for his life. |
|
I know it varies by state, but using fear for your life, may not be adequate depending on where your live. 1. means 2. opportunity 3. intent to inflict sever bodily harm or lethal force against you. that is when you have the right to defend yourself with lethal force. If you fear for your life, but canot show those 3 , in many jurisdictions, it isn't good enough. depends on where you are. |
BTW, your concept of NV law was way off. NV law has and did permit firearm carry as long as it was not concealed on your person. You could hide it anywhere in the car you wanted. If you sat there for a few minutes with this guy beating on your car, what did you car look like in the end?? Did you pursue the criminal charges? This case is a prime example of being aware of your surroundings and not getting trapped by a suspect. |
Aye, same thing I'd do. 124 gr bullet or 3000 lb car? |
|
Here's something to add fuel to the fire: consider the 3 NYPD Detectives who are under indictment for shooting the "groom". From a popular news site: "It would seem the officers must have walked into a wedding and shot "the groom" but the facts are dramatically more complex and the media as well as the Mayor have focused on a very narrow set of those facts to make it very difficult for the public to decide anything other than the officers must have had bad intent. In fact, the investigators were not at a wedding but at a high profile problem bar and were facing men who they believed were armed. The media doesn't mention most actions that night other than the number of shots fired by the officers which only shows they were not gaining control as quickly as they perceived they needed it! Something was making them fear for their lives but little is said of that. One of them had been struck by the "groom's" car and a police car had also been rammed by the same car." Yes, there are other issues at play here that do not exactly fit the scenario posed, but it does make one think given the realm of an "unarmed assailant". |
So your point is police are held to a much lower standard than citizens? I don't understand your point. If any citizen was in such a situation (not sure how/why) they would be charged with murder. Just think of the abu dialo (sp??) shooting. If you and your friend shoot someone 40 times after they pull out your wallet, you are screwed, but not those officers. That entire shooting doesn't relate to this thread. That wasn't road rage. It's still unclear if officers identified themselves as they were plain clothes. Which led to the car attempting to drive away, being rammed by a van, then officers opening fire. Not to mention NYPD policy doesn't allow for use of deadly force when a car is trying to run you over, you are required to move. If I have plain clothes someone pull a gun on me when I'm getting my car, I normally don't assume they are a police officer. You assume they are a carjacker. Hopefully this plays out and they did identify themselves and it was the "groom's" fault for trying to drive away, but who knows. |
If you read my post, you will notice that I said it is not an exact fit here. You will also notice that the news site notes that not a lot is being said about the details of the shooting. Some of the details you speak of are not listed in the news clip above and things that I have not heard in the media. My first concern is that the media and/or public automatically assumes that a large number or rounds fired equals a bad shoot. Unfortunately, this only means that either a) the shooter sucks at hitting his target b) the caliber and/or ammo used sucks or c) the target is high. But, in trying to tie this situation into the "road rage" question of the post -- you will notice that the "groom" drove into another vehicle and also ran into an officer. Potential road rage incidents? Isn't a vehicle considered a deadly weapon? It's too bad if you are correct that NYPD policy prohibits shooting at a vehicle because I can think of many good reasons why one might need to! Finally, if the DA can decide to charge the officers in this case for shooting an unarmed man -- even though the news release above states that the officers thought the men were armed -- what makes you think they won't charge someone for shooting an unarmed man coming at you? Ultimately, I question the criminal and civil liability of shooting an unarmed assailant. |
| The facts on the incident you've posted above are unclear, you yourself say the media may not or doesn't have all the facts figured out. Generally road rage incidents are between two civilian motorists and escalate when one party feels the other has 'wronged' them (pulled out in front of, tailgated, cut off, harrassed,etc.). This thread has been discussing how concealed weapons have come into play during these moments of rage. This incident sounds as though the police were involved from the start. Knowing that the police were 1 of the 2 parties changes the scenario, concealed weapons are handled very differently when the police are involved. The issue may have started with a traffic incident but if one of the parties were police. Yes, it is an interesting case and should be discussed but here in this thread and at this early point in time when the facts are hazey may not be the best of times. |
Laws vary on this from state to state. There is a case in Virginia where a guy lifted his shirt and revealed a flare gun. This was deemed to be brandishing under Virginia law. ETA: Not suggesting that this would have been brandishing under Virginia law, just that having a handgun in plain sight could be deemed brandishing under certain circumstances. |
Which is why I carry a little can in the center console. If the rager does not have a weapon and just wants to get violent, a whiff of OC should disuaded them from continuing. If a weapon is present, gun comes out if I can't get away. |
|
About four years ago I was spending a weekend with my grandfather. My grandfather cut a guy off, not intentionally, just knucklehead driving on his part. At the next red light the guy flipped, came from his vehicle towards ours screaming and cursing with a collapsible baton extended in his hand. My grandfather is retired police, and has a mind-set that rules apply differently to him. Hence the .38 snubby he keeps under his car seat with no holster or anything to secure it from sliding around. He began reaching down under the seat as soon as we saw the guy approaching with the baton. I franticly told him to worry about operating the car if need be. He knew I was carrying, which is probably why he stopped fishing around for the gun under his seat and put his hands back on the wheel and gear shift. I was sitting up erect in my seat with my left hand outstreched in a 'stop' gesture, while my right hand was on the grip of my Kimber, behind hip, still holstered. At this point baton guy had made it within 6 feet of our car and had stopped there while still screaming. He and I made eye contact and I said loud but slow, 'Don't do it, just don't do it.', while shaking my head. Maybe it was the ' calm certainty' in my tone and eyes (well, that's the way I remember it), maybe it was my body posture with my right hand stationed behind my hip at waist level. Probably both. But something seemed to register with him and he went on a final string of shouted insults and arm flailing before storming back to his car and taking off. Even at the time I feel like I had a sense that I wasn't even going to brandish my gun. I think part of that is because I wasn't alone in the car and didn't have to worry about operating a car and responding to potential danger at the same time. I'm very thankful that things worked out the way they did and I didn't have to go to the step of brandishing my gun. This incident happened in Oklahoma, where my grandfather lives (I live in Pennsylvania). There is a really high level of crystal meth use in the area he lives. It has crossed my mind many times that he could end up in a situation with some meth freak in an aggresive manic state, clashing with a salty old man that came up on some tough beats as an officer with the L.A. Sheriff's Dept. where hesitation meant receiving an ass whipping if you were lucky. I guess this last thought wanders off the topic of road rage a bit, but it's the same basic idea and it worries me. |
I was riding my motorcyle one time and a little white jetta pulled up behind me with 3 males inside. I was going about 60 they pulled within 10 feet of me. Then they slowed down. Sped up and down. So I turned. They followed. I pulled up to a stop light and I raise my arms knowing that my .40 will show. After a good long stretch. I see an OH S#*$ comming from the guy in the passanger seat. They were the best dirvers after that. I have no clue why?
|
 Pull up your shirt on your strong side and scratch real good. "Me brandishing? Noooooooo........, I just had to scratch the itch". 
|
Remember your de-escalation training. I also believe that a person who carries a gun should also have less-lethal means of defense readily available. |
 This flies in the face of all training I have had and all reading I have done on the subject. Life threatening actions by someone = deadly force is authorized in Ohio. |