Posted: 1/31/2007 8:34:17 AM EDT
|
This is the offspring of the "has anyone had to draw" the big misconseption is that drawing is associated with firing.. and firing means killing. There are obviusly many moral / legal issues to each stage.. just because you have to fire does not justify killing a prep. I'm shocked at the occurances not raised here.. cases where firing in the air would be sufficent in scaring off a prep.. yes it may get you in legal trouble but in states other than FL it may be your best bet because you just might get charge with attemted murder or man slaughter.. and to those who have a moral / ethical / religious dilema.. of "thou shall not kill" which holds for a situation where your not in direct danger.. If you are attacked by a group of thugs who are armed with clubs.. firing in air / leg should do job. Same goes for would be robberer's. etc. My expirience in these things are from my days in the army in israel in combat.. I havent got expirience with handguns but M16A1 is my baby. Let me tell you because some idiots decided that the IDF has to be the most moral army in the world at our expense.. the army has a entire f**ng book called "purity of arms" I just about shot myself in the head when we were initiated into protocol of firing.. If you are guarding a subject approaches you must yell stop.. if they do not stop, fire 65 degrees in the air.. if they continue to approach you may fire 3 years from their legs.. if they still dont stop you can shoot em in the legs.. Bullshit right? but there are MANY soldiers in jail for shooting to defend themselfs.. in hebron 3 soldiers were killed because of these bullshit mesures to protect "civilians" someone spray painted "better a bad lawyer than a good cantor" I have seen "your jail cell is bigger than your coffin" There is a farmer in jail now charged with man slaughter... he was awoken at 3am by a boudin stealing his herd by his house.. guy fired and killed boudin thief.. in jail. In florida where I live he would get a award.. so dromi's brother says "I rather spend 10k on a lawyer than 5$ on flowers" Baically everyone is scared shitless to shoot because then amnesty intl and the UN and whatnot goes crazy.. So basically we learn the raise rifle and shoot in the air and hope the mofo scrambles.. My 2 cents on this.. |
I disagree with almost everything you said  I would not draw down unless my life or the life of a loved one was in peril. If my pistol leaves the holster, I would have the intention of stopping the threat. Doing stupid shit like firing in the air is not only illegal, but can get you or an innocent killed. Intentionally shooting someone in the leg is something I would never do. Honestly, I'm afraid of people like you that ccw.... Btw, welcome to the board  Flushdraw |
Why not shoot the clubs out of their hands? Seriously if a band of guys with clubs are about to beat me into pizza dough I'm no going to fart around trying to hit them in the legs and maybe miss. I'm going to plug them in the briscuit. If you can do it, more power to you.  Obviously what I would face on the street is a completey different story from what an Isreali soldier manning a check point has to deal with. I am alone and armed only with a handgun, that's a little different than having an M-16 and presumably similarly armed compatriots with me backing me up. Also our laws are obviously different than Israels. Even in New York shooting when faced with multiple guys armed with clubs would be something you would have a good chance of beating in court. |
|
I disagree with you.. If you are proprly trained, fring in the air in no problem. Ive done it hundreds of times.. gernades are danguress too and ive lobbed a few in training whats the conection ? obviusly you gotta do things right.. You want to fight some libtard public attorny out to judas you ? i'm not against lethal fire when needed but i'm saying that there are other options.. This is another reason why carying unchamberd can be a plus.. racking at a danger point gives off a good messege. My mentality may be skewd due to my whole purity of arms training and "value of human life" I just always saw that there is no need to fire always.. I have been at checkpoints, road blocks, guard duty in tower, and combat in some hell holes, jenin, nablus, hebron etc.. Raising a gun sometimes does the job.. you need will power to draw down.. but it can be done. |
|
And when faced with 500000 mofo's armed.. shooting them aint a option.. I was in tubas and these guys are hitting us with cement slabs and we had to duck out.. Yeah no wonder the IDF is viewd as cowards.. but when your goverment is a leftist ass kissing regime and the defense minister is a commie that had the rank of captian in the tank corps.. well yeah it does pose a problem.. Look at the border guards who are charged with murder for killing 12 in sakhnin.. that was a lynch mob.. the press here will paint you ass a extremist and your ass is roasted. |
|
I think you'll find few in the US who will go along with the unchambered gun thing, though I have heard about that being normal in Isreal. Again, remember I'm not working a check point. If two guys walk into the vestibule where I am at the ATM and decide they're going to kick the shit out of me I don't want to mess around trying to chamber a round, by that time there's a good chance I'll be on the ground getting the boots put to me. If two guys are already close to you when they decide to attack getting a pistol racked in time would be tough. I don't have the luxury of controlling how closely someone can approach me as you might be able to in the military. I'm not saying I would automatically shoot anyone when I draw my pistol. I am sure a lot of crimes are discouraged by the mere showing of a pistol. edit I don't think you'll find anyone here calling the IDF cowards, they're pretty popular here.
|
I would suppose.. tell it to the guys that run the joint in israel.. but not every case where you are in danger is killing justified. |
|
Shooting someone is lethal force, whether you kill them or not. If you shoot someone in the leg because "they didn't need killin'" then you are implying (in the eyes of the procesutor) that lethal force was not necessary. If lethal force isn't necessary, you can't shoot someone, period. If I am going to shoot someone, it's because I need them to stop. The vital area of someone's leg is a very small, moving target. COM is a much bigger target that doesn't move nearly as fast. As for warning shots, would you rather kill someone trying to kill/harm you, or an innocent person a mile away? Unless that bullet fired at an angle less than straight up can still kill people. Now, if the bad guy ceased to be a threat between the time I decided to draw and when I actually pull the trigger, I would not shoot them. ETA: I don't think your IDF experience translates very well to a self defense situation in the US. From your descriptions (mobs, road blocks, etc.) you see threats coming from some distance off. In a civilian SD situation the threat comes from the guy that walks up behind you at the ATM or walks in the front door of gas station with a gun while you're waiting in line. You likely wouldn't have time to employ all of those warning countermeasures you were taught. There is a reason most SD shootings happen at 10 feet. |
| Wow! Sounds like the IDF has neutered your outlook on when to fire. If you are outnumbered by men armed with clubs and they attack, you SHOOT TO KILL! No ifs, ands of buts about it..... Firing in the air? Aiming for the leg? I wouldn't even remotely consider that as an option. Please don't tell me you would. |
|
Talk to shai dromi.. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467788756&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull I agree mostly with you guys.. but I believe in trying to prevent the loss of life.. Killing someone is a serious thing that will haunt you the rest of your life "was I justified in killing him?" of course if you dont.. the rest of your life may be only 30 seconds.. |
You could get charged with manslaughter when the bullet you fired into the air comes down through the roof of a home and kills someone. What goes up must come down.
A firearm is a lethal weapon. If it's time to use it, it is time to kill. If it's time to point it at someone, it's time to be ready to kill. One of the rules of gun safety is "Never point a gun at anyone or anything you are not prepared to kill or destroy." If you are not prepared to use your weapon properly you should not carry it. I would very much prefer to go through life without killing anyone and I hope that if I ever have to draw on someone that I will not have to fire. But if I do, it is going to be aimed at center mass. By the way, I am not prepared to risk my life or the life of my loved ones on what "should do the job."
So wait, you are telling us we should fire into the air or shoot in the leg, and then complaining about Israeli regulations on the same subject? |
|
If its coming out of the If you pull your weapon and rack the slide, you are brandishing. If you fire in the air you are brandishing and could harm someone else unless you fire at a 90 degree angle. Plus you are going to KILL your hearing and thus lose situational awareness. Possibly kill your night sight as well from the flash. Thats not to say don't put you hand on your gun if you see a probable threat. However the average gun fight last, what 7 seconds. Drawing from a conceal position, and getting a t-shirt or two out of the way and bring the weapon to bear is going to cost time, and adding another step of racking the slide-well it could get you killed. Likewise if you are jumped and are using your weakhand to fight them off and/or push the perps gun out of the way while you draw. Its a bad idea given the nature of criminals in the US and of US laws. It may be viable in Israel but I don't think so. I think most Israelis carry like that because they were all taught that method when doing their mandatory service. It just carries over when they CCW as civis. |
This is the single biggest collection of BAD ADVICE I've ever read on this subject. Sorry, but your experience in Israel is completely meaningless here in the USA as most everything you've advocated will result in criminal charges in an otherwise justified shooting. Using lethal force in a non-lethal manner, i.e. shooting in the leg = not a life-threatening situation = criminal charges for using lethal force in a situation that didn't warrant it. Firing warning shots = not a life-threatening situation = criminal charges for using lethal force in a situation that didn't warrant it. Firing shots in the air = unable to account for where the rounds land = criminal charges for negligence (or worse, if the rounds hit someone or something). There are people in jail in the USA right now for doing all of these things. |
+1 Flushdraw pretty much sums it up. If you "have a moral / ethical / religious dilema" then maybe lethal is not what you want to carry, maybe less than lethal is a better choice. Everyone should spend as much time on the mental prep in CCW as they do in the equipment. Sounds like you are doing just that and I applaud that. Like Flushdraw said, welcome. F3 |
|
If I draw I will fire, with 2 exceptions 1. Between the time I decide to use lethal force and the time I have the front sight on the target, the BG decides he wants to run away, or 2. My shot is obstructed I won't risk the lives of my family in an attempt to save the life of a BG by firing a warning shot or my attempting to shoot his leg. Period. |
|
I'm not implyng that things are the same.. i'm just bringing up how it is in the army in israel... But you guys are corect, your #1 threat in israel is a armed terrorist.. but due to some shmucks.. if you fire you usualy wind up in jail.. You guys watch too many movies ? I fired my M16A1 in the air at a 65 degree angle dozens of times and we all came out unscratched.. I guess its just the physcology ive been drilled with to avoid killing.. go figure. |
|
Sorry but I would say that maybe you have watched too many movies if you think your going to be able to shoot someone in the leg under stress. That really sucks if the IDF is told to try to do that. In the USMC we're taught to NEVER fire a warning shot, and to always shoot center of mass because it's the easiest to hit and does the most damage, thereby stopping the threat. Makes sense to me. It's not that hard to imagine a warning shot coming down in the middle of an apartment building or something. No thanks. |
I believe in trying to prevent the loss of my life If a BG cares so little about his life that he takes action demanding a lethal response... Different people have different emotional/psychological responses to killing. I don't pretend to understand why. A justified shooting is no problem in my book. Understand what justifies a lethal response before you are put in that situation and you will be less likely to make a mistake. The way you act will probably be the result of your training, because you won't have time to think through it all. You've been trained to react a certain way that may have been appropriate to your job. You need to retrain yourself to act in a way that makes sense in the completely different set of circumstances you are now in. |
 .....elchonon....... you do any of what you propose in Florida and you're FUCKED.Shooting is a LAST resort when NO other option is left. Shooting into the air is NEVER justifiable, you are civily and criminaly responsible for every round you fire. As far as
Sorry killing someone trying to kill me or mine isn't going to cost me so much as a minutes sleep, I promise. |
I disagree. If I'm in danger of serious bodily injury or being killed... I'm justified in shooting. Period. If I'm only in danger of having my feelings hurt, I'm not justified in shooting. Period. |
|
You shouldn't be carring a gun . Your going to end up hurting or killing some inocent by stander with a stray falling bullet , or suid by the guy you shoot in the leg . If your not willing to end someones life to protect your own or someone you love , then don't carry a gun .
|
|
elchonon, Here are a few pointers to head you in the right direction. 1. Never draw your weapon unless you have been put in a position to use it. 2. Never fire a round into the air. 3. COM doubletap. Aim center of mass. Forget all of the wing 'em in the arm or leg crap. 4. Be aware of your surroundings. That bullet will have a backstop of some sort if you miss. Hopefully, that will help you stay out of prison and keep innocent bystanders from being shot when you go into "Miami Vice" mode. Jay |
|
Warning shots? Shooting to wound!? Are you nuts? Draw/shoot if myself or loved one is in immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury. Shoot if the attacker has 1) The mindset 2) The means 3) The tools to do the above. Too many people think CCW is for playing cowboy. Someone stealing your cattle? Ok, call the police/sheriff to do their job and draw down. |
Jesus Christ, I thought your first post was bad but this one takes the cake. Exactly where did those rounds you fired at a 65 degree angle land? Only a complete fucking twit would do such a thing, unless you happen to be at sea and can see 17 miles of clear horizon in every direction. YOU came out unscratched, but you may very well have killed someone with your criminally negligent behavior. Apparently you only have a problem with killing intentionally, but doing it by random chance is fine. 
|
If you are carrying a gun for defensive reasons here in the US, then I strongly recommend you go to a good defensive firearms training school ASAP. They will teach you that civilian defensive firearm use here in the US is completely different then your military training/experience in Israel. They will teach you when its ok to shoot and when its not ok to shoot. They will teach you that it is illegal to fire a "warning shot" in the air. They will teach you that if you need to shoot to defend your self, then you shoot for COM and keep shooting at COM until the threat stops, if dies, he dies. Never shoot at a arm or leg just to wound. If you place a value on everyones life even when that person is trying to take your life, then carrying a firearm for defensive use is probably not for you. My self, I place ABSOLUTELY NO VALUE on a persons life that is spent stealing from others or threatening other peoples lives. If someone is threatening me or my family with deadly force I will shoot to stop him, not to kill but to stop. If he dies, then he dies, and there is one less criminal on the street. |