Posted: 7/29/2013 7:04:38 AM EDT
No this isn't that thread.  G22 IWB, I print & I know I print & I really don't care.
This is for all that obsess about printing. I was in church Sunday. I wear polo shirts mostly. Found out I had some video taken of me with some other people after service. I viewed the video & it caught me at angles where the grip of my G22 clearly was printing. That got me thinking that people must see me all the time just like that printing away. Not once in 2 years have I gotten so much as a 2nd look. I see it but the other people do not. I dress about the same for work & around town & again no one has gave me any look. So stop obsessing about printing. No one cares! |
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People are so wrapped up in their own little world with their own concerns nowadays that I honestly think that someone could probably get away with open carrying with few people noticing, as long as they weren't real obvious about it and were not using, for example, a drop-leg holster.
With the way things are, with people preoccupied with their own problems, with the current self-absorbed "me, me, me" generation and with people afraid to make eye contact with anyone, people don't look and check out those around them the way they used to. They tend to go their own way, do their own thing and ignore everyone else. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule- people who don't live in "Condition White" like (hopefully) CCW holders, security and Police and, of course, bad guys. But, for the most part, people just don't look around and notice anything anymore. Myself, despite what I posted above, I worry about concealment. I carry my Glock 26 in a CrossBreed SuperTuck when off duty from my PD job, simply because of all the guns I currently own, it conceals the best, not to mention it works best for that job. I could carry my G22 duty gun or my G19 and not worry about it, but I choose to worry about it. I've seen the clothing bulges that the couple guys I work with who carry their G23s off duty display. It's not real obvious, and I doubt most would notice it, but I do and don't want to print like they do. To me, concealed means concealed, not just covered up by a shirt. In fact, as soon as I get some money saved up, I'm going to get either a S&W Shield in 9mm or Springfield XDs in 9mm, simply to conceal better while still shooting a reasonable SD caliber. There's really nowhere to go shopping where I live without going to a suburb of Youngstown, OH, and I don't want any run-ins with LE. Even though I am LE and am permitted to carry the guns I carry, all the Mahoning County cops I've ever met are MAJOR ASSHOLES! I have no desire to ruin my day by run-ins with them, even if I'm perfectly legal. If you or anyone else want to carry a larger gun and not worry about printing, that's your choice and more power to you. Sometimes, during the winter and when I can effectively conceal it under heavy clothes, I will carry my G22 duty gun and feel a LOT better since I am carrying a larger, easier to shoot gun with more capacity, However, I'm not willing to print to carry it during the summer. Bub75 |
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Quoted:
No this isn't that thread. G22 IWB, I print & I know I print & I really don't care.
This is for all that obsess about printing. I was in church Sunday. I wear polo shirts mostly. Found out I had some video taken of me with some other people after service. I viewed the video & it caught me at angles where the grip of my G22 clearly was printing. That got me thinking that people must see me all the time just like that printing away. Not once in 2 years have I gotten so much as a 2nd look. I see it but the other people do not. I dress about the same for work & around town & again no one has gave me any look. So stop obsessing about printing. No one cares! LOL !!! There is a fairly recent thread here where a guy was 'made' at a resteraunt during lunch. Cops came. They verified his permit. All was fine. He didn't care who knew he was carrying. Now lets have that happen to a guy who is eating lunch with a client that represents a huge sale for his company... Now lets have that client be anti-2nd Amendment and a key sale is lost... All over printing. Bottom line here is this... The only people who should listen to your post are those who are only responsible for themselves. |
| a month or so ago, as I was entering a restaurant, an older gentleman (I'm 65) approached the door at the same time...obviously a Florida Rancher, with a distinctive bulge at his hip... I spotted what was obviously a SW N frame magna grip...as I opened the door for him, I commented "N frame?".... he stopped, and replied, "damn son you're good, yes a 4 inch 29".... I was seriously out gunned.... |
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That would be me that had the cops called on me eating lunch! Hey, I got a free lunch out of it!
I understand in some States and in some areas printing is a bad thing. In most cases I go out of my way to make sure it's concealed, but here where we have open carry and it don't matter legally if people can see it or not, I just don't worry about it sometimes. |
| I try my best not to print, just to avoid even having to deal with any negativity. The good thing is that a negative reaction is very unlikely amongst the people I travel most of the time. It's more of trying to avoid the freaks out there that are actively searching for things to panic about. |
| The thing that often tips me off to someone carrying more than printing is if they have a huge knife clip on their pocket. Especially if they are wearing like chinos and a ralph lauren polo and have a big ass knife clip sticking out of their pocket, it's very noticeable, and a closer looks usually shows they appear to be printing. |
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The only people that look and notice are people who carry themselves...The rest of the world that dosn't carry don't have a clue. They are too wrapped up in their own lives to notice a small bulge in your shirt. They are people that carry themselves, but cops and criminals will notice too. Cheers! -JC |
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They are people that carry themselves, but cops and criminals will notice too. Cheers! -JC Quoted:
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The only people that look and notice are people who carry themselves...The rest of the world that dosn't carry don't have a clue. They are too wrapped up in their own lives to notice a small bulge in your shirt. They are people that carry themselves, but cops and criminals will notice too. Cheers! -JC Not only that, but how often are folks noticing your gun and don't ever let you know about it? I don't know how many people saw the exposed gun of the guy who's shirt lifted up while shopping in Wal Mart before I said something. I saw it from a good 30' away and watched another customer notice but kept right on walking. Good thing it wasn't someone who wanted to make a stink... Legal or not. If anything like that happens to me while at a social gathering, my kids would loose some good friends because their parents will NEVER get the gun thing. So... Should we go unarmed, carry a smaller gun, or find a better way to carry a duty caliber double-stack ? For me, high-riding or low-riding appendix carry is that better way. |
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If you have legitimate reasons for not wanting to print then by all means that's your option. I'm speaking more to to the ones that obsess about it like everyone is watching them. To each their own I guess. I was just amazed people I see often don't see it. Fair enough. And I agree with this explanation. Your OP however, made a completely different assertion. Hope you don't mind that others have pointed out where it is valid to care about printing when it applies to a career vs a job and being responsible for others instead of just yourself. 
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I absolutely love my Shield 9mm for this reason. Compared to the G27 and P2000SK I used to carry, it just disappears under a 5.11 snap button shirt. I'm not a huge fan of IWB carry although that is how I currently carry.
For me, the biggest thing is just pulling my shirt tail down when I hop out of the pick-up since it tends to ride up and snag on the gun when I drive or shift in the seat. The open vehicle door provides cover for me to do so without anyone noticing. Other than that, I just have to be cognizant that if I bend at the waist, I will likely have to adjust the shirt when I stand since I currently carry around 4:00. I would prefer to carry at 3:00, but I need to lose a little weight first. 
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I don't care if I print or not because Michigan has open carry and I have a CPL (concealed pistol license). I've heard of the 911 calls...Caller: I saw a man with a gun. 911: Where at and was he being threating and point or waving it? caller: No. He's eating dinner with his wife and three kids at McDonalds but he has a gun on his side. 911: Is he threating anyone? Caller: No but he has a gun. 911: We will send out a car (at the waste of tax payers money) Caller: Good, I'll sleep better tonite.
I just obey the laws of this state and don't do anything that's stupid. People just need to be educated about guns and gun laws but the media just doesn't want that to happen. Right now the ratio of CPL holders to non CPL holders is 1:19. Just remember that a good guy with a gun is what stops a bad guy with a gun. Be safe and above all else be legal. Gun control is hitting your target. Still working for me 57 years later.
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They are people that carry themselves, but cops and criminals will notice too. Cheers! -JC Quoted:
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The only people that look and notice are people who carry themselves...The rest of the world that dosn't carry don't have a clue. They are too wrapped up in their own lives to notice a small bulge in your shirt. They are people that carry themselves, but cops and criminals will notice too. Cheers! -JC The people in the latter group are those whom I do not want to know I'm carrying. I have no desire to lose that small element of surprise against a violent attacker. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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The people in the latter group are those whom I do not want to know I'm carrying. I have no desire to lose that small element of surprise against a violent attacker. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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The only people that look and notice are people who carry themselves...The rest of the world that dosn't carry don't have a clue. They are too wrapped up in their own lives to notice a small bulge in your shirt. They are people that carry themselves, but cops and criminals will notice too. Cheers! -JC The people in the latter group are those whom I do not want to know I'm carrying. I have no desire to lose that small element of surprise against a violent attacker. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yeah, it's much better to try to draw on a guy who has the drop on you and hope you're successful. It's awesome to shoot your attacker because you'll be a hero that won't get get sued by his family. Your children will be much better off having witnessed some guy getting perforated and bleeding out on the street. 
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Yeah, it's much better to try to draw on a guy who has the drop on you and hope you're successful. It's awesome to shoot your attacker because you'll be a hero that won't get get sued by his family. Your children will be much better off having witnessed some guy getting perforated and bleeding out on the street. Quoted:
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The people in the latter group are those whom I do not want to know I'm carrying. I have no desire to lose that small element of surprise against a violent attacker. Yeah, it's much better to try to draw on a guy who has the drop on you and hope you're successful. It's awesome to shoot your attacker because you'll be a hero that won't get get sued by his family. Your children will be much better off having witnessed some guy getting perforated and bleeding out on the street. No, it's better to not be selected as the "shoot him first/grab his gun first" guy in a crowd. I said "against a violent attacker." Theater and mall shooters are violent attackers, too. The term does not automatically denote a 1v1 empty street scenario. Whether I print or not is pretty immaterial to draw speed. At that point, it's either a situational awareness failure or a well-sprung ambush. Neither of those would have been prevented by allowing an ill-fitting cover garment to outline my gun. One could even argue that a loose-fitting cover garment both conceals better and is quicker for the draw. I'll even go so far as to assert it, since I've tried both against the timer. At least I think that was the straw man you tried, and failed, to present. Your comment is so devoid of actual logic as to make me unsure. You resorted to veiled ad hominem attack and appeal to emotion/"think of the children." That's a deflecting tactic used to great effect by the media and anti-gunners, but it won't get any traction with me. Debate the actual issue. If we follow your polluted argument to one logical conclusion, you would even be forced to admit that avoiding printing is better for me. You assert that I have a hero fantasy (which wildly assumes something not in evidence.) Someone with a hero complex would likely desire confrontation on at least some level. Obvious printing with a gun would invite more attention from others, thereby increasing the chance of an escalating interaction. Therefore, someone with a hero complex might reasonably be expected to hope others notice the gun. This line of thinking is evidenced by a surrogate, the CCW badge proudly displayed by some. I have no badge, no shoot out hero fantasy, nor any desire to be noticed carrying a gun. TL;DR- put away the coloring books and think like an adult. Some of us have lots to lose and little to gain by printing with a gun. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I absolutely love my Shield 9mm for this reason. Compared to the G27 and P2000SK I used to carry, it just disappears under a 5.11 snap button shirt. I'm not a huge fan of IWB carry although that is how I currently carry. For me, the biggest thing is just pulling my shirt tail down when I hop out of the pick-up since it tends to ride up and snag on the gun when I drive or shift in the seat. The open vehicle door provides cover for me to do so without anyone noticing. Other than that, I just have to be cognizant that if I bend at the waist, I will likely have to adjust the shirt when I stand since I currently carry around 4:00. I would prefer to carry at 3:00, but I need to lose a little weight first. I thought wearing anything 5.11 was automatically considered printing. 
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| I used to worry about printing until recently in Sam's Club with my wife. I saw a women in the checkout line open carrying a small 9 in an uncle mikes hip holster. We passed by her 2 times and I watched people around her that were looking at phones or out into space completely unaware she was carrying. This included my wife who was in line behind the woman and did not see it until I pointed it out. I think most people are so oblivious to everything going on around them I don't worry about much anymore. |
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Not only that, but how often are folks noticing your gun and don't ever let you know about it? For me, high-riding or low-riding appendix carry is that better way. Quoted:
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The only people that look and notice are people who carry themselves...The rest of the world that dosn't carry don't have a clue. They are too wrapped up in their own lives to notice a small bulge in your shirt. They are people that carry themselves, but cops and criminals will notice too. Cheers! -JC Not only that, but how often are folks noticing your gun and don't ever let you know about it? For me, high-riding or low-riding appendix carry is that better way. Carrying up front has many pluses IMO. Not only is it easier to hide more gun there but it's easier to see who may be looking is another. They have to be facing you and you're more likely to notice someone looking towards your package area than your 4:00. Unless you're used to people staring at your package and more power to ya if that's you 
Cheers! -JC |
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At least I think that was the straw man you tried, and failed, to present. Your comment is so devoid of actual logic as to make me unsure. You resorted to veiled ad hominem attack and appeal to emotion/"think of the children." That's a deflecting tactic used to great effect by the media and anti-gunners, but it won't get any traction with me. Debate the actual issue. If we follow your polluted argument to one logical conclusion, you would even be forced to admit that avoiding printing is better for me. You assert that I have a hero fantasy (which wildly assumes something not in evidence.) Someone with a hero complex would likely desire confrontation on at least some level. Obvious printing with a gun would invite more attention from others, thereby increasing the chance of an escalating interaction. Therefore, someone with a hero complex might reasonably be expected to hope others notice the gun. This line of thinking is evidenced by a surrogate, the CCW badge proudly displayed by some. I have no badge, no shoot out hero fantasy, nor any desire to be noticed carrying a gun. TL;DR- put away the coloring books and think like an adult. Some of us have lots to lose and little to gain by printing with a gun. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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The people in the latter group are those whom I do not want to know I'm carrying. I have no desire to lose that small element of surprise against a violent attacker. Yeah, it's much better to try to draw on a guy who has the drop on you and hope you're successful. It's awesome to shoot your attacker because you'll be a hero that won't get get sued by his family. Your children will be much better off having witnessed some guy getting perforated and bleeding out on the street. At least I think that was the straw man you tried, and failed, to present. Your comment is so devoid of actual logic as to make me unsure. You resorted to veiled ad hominem attack and appeal to emotion/"think of the children." That's a deflecting tactic used to great effect by the media and anti-gunners, but it won't get any traction with me. Debate the actual issue. If we follow your polluted argument to one logical conclusion, you would even be forced to admit that avoiding printing is better for me. You assert that I have a hero fantasy (which wildly assumes something not in evidence.) Someone with a hero complex would likely desire confrontation on at least some level. Obvious printing with a gun would invite more attention from others, thereby increasing the chance of an escalating interaction. Therefore, someone with a hero complex might reasonably be expected to hope others notice the gun. This line of thinking is evidenced by a surrogate, the CCW badge proudly displayed by some. I have no badge, no shoot out hero fantasy, nor any desire to be noticed carrying a gun. TL;DR- put away the coloring books and think like an adult. Some of us have lots to lose and little to gain by printing with a gun. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile OK, now that's funny. Be nice or mom will take away your internet privileges. |
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OK, now that's funny. Be nice or mom will take away your internet privileges. So instead of actually discussing the point, you opted to go right to personal attacks in a tech forum? Insults and name calling don't address the conversation about CCW printing. All you did was the virtual equivalent of sticking your tongue out at me or saying, literally, "yo mamma." |
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So instead of actually discussing the point, you opted to go right to personal attacks in a tech forum? Insults and name calling don't address the conversation about CCW printing. All you did was the virtual equivalent of sticking your tongue out at me or saying, literally, "yo mamma." Quoted:
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OK, now that's funny. Be nice or mom will take away your internet privileges. So instead of actually discussing the point, you opted to go right to personal attacks in a tech forum? Insults and name calling don't address the conversation about CCW printing. All you did was the virtual equivalent of sticking your tongue out at me or saying, literally, "yo mamma." You had no point. You completely misinterpreted my post and went off on some incoherent rant where you tried to sound intelligent by using words and phrases you don't really understand. It's been discussed. The OP doesn't care if he prints, and neither do I. You trotted out that old tired "element of surprise" that is only a myth in the minds of people who fail to think beyond the sound bite. The element of surprise is an offensive move, and the bad guy uses it to get the drop on you. You aren't going to surprise him with your gun, because unless you live in a place where concealed carry doesn't happen for regular citizens, he's already well aware of CCW. If you don't want people to know you carry (for whatever reason) then fine, be man enough to say so. Don't try to hide behind some tired lines that don't mean anything. |
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You fail for a number of reasons, bu mainly for believing your position represents all CCW people.
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You had no point. You completely misinterpreted my post and went off on some incoherent rant where you tried to sound intelligent by using words and phrases you don't really understand. It's been discussed. The OP doesn't care if he prints, and neither do I. You trotted out that old tired "element of surprise" that is only a myth in the minds of people who fail to think beyond the sound bite. The element of surprise is an offensive move, and the bad guy uses it to get the drop on you. You aren't going to surprise him with your gun, unless you live in a place where concealed carry doesn't happen for regular citizens, he's already well aware of CCW. If you don't want people to know you carry (for whatever reason) then fine, be man enough to say so. Don't try to hide behind some tired lines that don't mean anything. Quoted:
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OK, now that's funny. Be nice or mom will take away your internet privileges. So instead of actually discussing the point, you opted to go right to personal attacks in a tech forum? Insults and name calling don't address the conversation about CCW printing. All you did was the virtual equivalent of sticking your tongue out at me or saying, literally, "yo mamma." You had no point. You completely misinterpreted my post and went off on some incoherent rant where you tried to sound intelligent by using words and phrases you don't really understand. It's been discussed. The OP doesn't care if he prints, and neither do I. You trotted out that old tired "element of surprise" that is only a myth in the minds of people who fail to think beyond the sound bite. The element of surprise is an offensive move, and the bad guy uses it to get the drop on you. You aren't going to surprise him with your gun, unless you live in a place where concealed carry doesn't happen for regular citizens, he's already well aware of CCW. If you don't want people to know you carry (for whatever reason) then fine, be man enough to say so. Don't try to hide behind some tired lines that don't mean anything. |
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You had no point. You completely misinterpreted my post and went off on some incoherent rant where you tried to sound intelligent by using words and phrases you don't really understand. My response was a detailed point-by-point explanation of my personal reasons. Your "think of the children, hero kill bad guy, mommy Internet privileges" comments were a rant. A second-rate rant, at best. I spent 14 years in higher education beyond high school learning words and phrases. Part of my first career was in live announcing, understanding, and usage of words and phrases. You insulted my intelligence. Please feel free to post results of assessments by psychologists/neuropsychologists, not free web tests, and then we can decide whether you have reasonable grounds to launch into that invective. It's been discussed. The OP doesn't care if he prints, and neither do I. Good for you. The OP and you do not constitute the authority on everyone's need to avoid printing. You trotted out that old tired "element of surprise" that is only a myth in the minds of people who fail to think beyond the sound bite. The element of surprise is an offensive move, and the bad guy uses it to get the drop on you. You aren't going to surprise him with your gun, because unless you live in a place where concealed carry doesn't happen for regular citizens, he's already well aware of CCW. If you don't want people to know you carry (for whatever reason) then fine, be man enough to say so. Don't try to hide behind some tired lines that don't mean anything. Quoted:
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OK, now that's funny. Be nice or mom will take away your internet privileges. So instead of actually discussing the point, you opted to go right to personal attacks in a tech forum? Insults and name calling don't address the conversation about CCW printing. All you did was the virtual equivalent of sticking your tongue out at me or saying, literally, "yo mamma." You had no point. You completely misinterpreted my post and went off on some incoherent rant where you tried to sound intelligent by using words and phrases you don't really understand. My response was a detailed point-by-point explanation of my personal reasons. Your "think of the children, hero kill bad guy, mommy Internet privileges" comments were a rant. A second-rate rant, at best. I spent 14 years in higher education beyond high school learning words and phrases. Part of my first career was in live announcing, understanding, and usage of words and phrases. You insulted my intelligence. Please feel free to post results of assessments by psychologists/neuropsychologists, not free web tests, and then we can decide whether you have reasonable grounds to launch into that invective. It's been discussed. The OP doesn't care if he prints, and neither do I. Good for you. The OP and you do not constitute the authority on everyone's need to avoid printing. You trotted out that old tired "element of surprise" that is only a myth in the minds of people who fail to think beyond the sound bite. The element of surprise is an offensive move, and the bad guy uses it to get the drop on you. You aren't going to surprise him with your gun, because unless you live in a place where concealed carry doesn't happen for regular citizens, he's already well aware of CCW. If you don't want people to know you carry (for whatever reason) then fine, be man enough to say so. Don't try to hide behind some tired lines that don't mean anything. "Trotted out that old tired... myth...think beyond the sound bite...hide behind some tired lines that dont mean anything. I'll concede mastery of platitudes to you for that sentence. I trying to tear down my discussion of surprise, you threw a handful of tired high school debate tactics designed to get applause from onlookers without actually discussing the merits of your position. You fixate on the "element of surprise" line as if it were the crux of my argument. In the exact same paragraph, I expanded on that statement to mean not just the gunfight at the OK Corrall youre trying to paint. Perhaps a better way to say it would have been, I wish to not be identified early by a mass shooter and selected to be the first victim. The element of surprise is more than just saying, "Boo! I've got a gun, too!" It also means the hiccup in his decision train, or OODA loop that happens when a previously ignored "victim" becomes a legitimate threat. Surprise works both ways. An attacker may initially have the greater portion of speed, surprise, and violence of action. That must be met with some combination of the same. Again with the insults, you said, "If you don't want people to know you carry (for whatever reason) then fine, be man enough to say so." You missed the part at the end, after the TL;DR where I said I don't want people to know I carry for whatever reason. I said at the beginning that I don't want people to know I carry for whatever reason. Somehow that annoyed you, maybe because you can't disagree without making it personal. I can disagree on facts and opinions, and respect that some people don't care. Someone else has legitimate reasons to avoid printing, whether it is from attention from criminal element, coworkers,clients, etc. Why can you not recognize and address that, without devolving into an emotional attack? |
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Quoted: So instead of actually discussing the point, you opted to go right to personal attacks in a tech forum? Insults and name calling don't address the conversation about CCW printing. All you did was the virtual equivalent of sticking your tongue out at me or saying, literally, "yo mamma." Quoted: Quoted: OK, now that's funny. Be nice or mom will take away your internet privileges. So instead of actually discussing the point, you opted to go right to personal attacks in a tech forum? Insults and name calling don't address the conversation about CCW printing. All you did was the virtual equivalent of sticking your tongue out at me or saying, literally, "yo mamma." When you stop doing that, people will stop thinking of you as a child. Do whatever you want, laws and customs are different. But don't use bullshit outright false reasoning to justify what you do to us. Mmmkay?
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"Trotted out that old tired... myth...think beyond the sound bite...hide behind some tired lines that dont mean anything. I'll concede mastery of platitudes to you for that sentence. I trying to tear down my discussion of surprise, you threw a handful of tired high school debate tactics designed to get applause from onlookers without actually discussing the merits of your position. You fixate on the "element of surprise" line as if it were the crux of my argument. In the exact same paragraph, I expanded on that statement to mean not just the gunfight at the OK Corrall youre trying to paint. Perhaps a better way to say it would have been, I wish to not be identified early by a mass shooter and selected to be the first victim. The element of surprise is more than just saying, "Boo! I've got a gun, too!" It also means the hiccup in his decision train, or OODA loop that happens when a previously ignored "victim" becomes a legitimate threat. Surprise works both ways. An attacker may initially have the greater portion of speed, surprise, and violence of action. That must be met with some combination of the same. Again with the insults, you said, "If you don't want people to know you carry (for whatever reason) then fine, be man enough to say so." You missed the part at the end, after the TL;DR where I said I don't want people to know I carry for whatever reason. I said at the beginning that I don't want people to know I carry for whatever reason. Somehow that annoyed you, maybe because you can't disagree without making it personal. I can disagree on facts and opinions, and respect that some people don't care. Someone else has legitimate reasons to avoid printing, whether it is from attention from criminal element, coworkers,clients, etc. Why can you not recognize and address that, without devolving into an emotional attack? Quoted:
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OK, now that's funny. Be nice or mom will take away your internet privileges. So instead of actually discussing the point, you opted to go right to personal attacks in a tech forum? Insults and name calling don't address the conversation about CCW printing. All you did was the virtual equivalent of sticking your tongue out at me or saying, literally, "yo mamma." You had no point. You completely misinterpreted my post and went off on some incoherent rant where you tried to sound intelligent by using words and phrases you don't really understand. My response was a detailed point-by-point explanation of my personal reasons. Your "think of the children, hero kill bad guy, mommy Internet privileges" comments were a rant. A second-rate rant, at best. I spent 14 years in higher education beyond high school learning words and phrases. Part of my first career was in live announcing, understanding, and usage of words and phrases. You insulted my intelligence. Please feel free to post results of assessments by psychologists/neuropsychologists, not free web tests, and then we can decide whether you have reasonable grounds to launch into that invective. It's been discussed. The OP doesn't care if he prints, and neither do I. Good for you. The OP and you do not constitute the authority on everyone's need to avoid printing. You trotted out that old tired "element of surprise" that is only a myth in the minds of people who fail to think beyond the sound bite. The element of surprise is an offensive move, and the bad guy uses it to get the drop on you. You aren't going to surprise him with your gun, because unless you live in a place where concealed carry doesn't happen for regular citizens, he's already well aware of CCW. If you don't want people to know you carry (for whatever reason) then fine, be man enough to say so. Don't try to hide behind some tired lines that don't mean anything. "Trotted out that old tired... myth...think beyond the sound bite...hide behind some tired lines that dont mean anything. I'll concede mastery of platitudes to you for that sentence. I trying to tear down my discussion of surprise, you threw a handful of tired high school debate tactics designed to get applause from onlookers without actually discussing the merits of your position. You fixate on the "element of surprise" line as if it were the crux of my argument. In the exact same paragraph, I expanded on that statement to mean not just the gunfight at the OK Corrall youre trying to paint. Perhaps a better way to say it would have been, I wish to not be identified early by a mass shooter and selected to be the first victim. The element of surprise is more than just saying, "Boo! I've got a gun, too!" It also means the hiccup in his decision train, or OODA loop that happens when a previously ignored "victim" becomes a legitimate threat. Surprise works both ways. An attacker may initially have the greater portion of speed, surprise, and violence of action. That must be met with some combination of the same. Again with the insults, you said, "If you don't want people to know you carry (for whatever reason) then fine, be man enough to say so." You missed the part at the end, after the TL;DR where I said I don't want people to know I carry for whatever reason. I said at the beginning that I don't want people to know I carry for whatever reason. Somehow that annoyed you, maybe because you can't disagree without making it personal. I can disagree on facts and opinions, and respect that some people don't care. Someone else has legitimate reasons to avoid printing, whether it is from attention from criminal element, coworkers,clients, etc. Why can you not recognize and address that, without devolving into an emotional attack? Thank you for clarifying, I think I understand better now. Let me explain. You see, when a person finds insult where there is none, then most adults perceive that person has a victim mentality. This is indicative of an immature person, thus my comment about your mom turning off your internet. In my first post to you I pointed out the absurdity of your ‘element of surprise’ comment and how it was not a preferable characteristic of one’s personal safety plan. I tried, in another post, to point out that ‘surprise’ is not a defensive tactic, and what you are calling surprise is actually ‘reaction’ or ‘damage control’. (The attack has already begun and your so-called surprise is actually your attempt to prevent it from getting worse.) In my first post to you I pointed out some of the possible outcomes of that line of thinking. I even provided two examples to demonstrate how silly it is to rely on the ‘element of surprise’ for part of your personal safety plan; civil action of the attacker or his family and the effects that it would have on your children for having witnessed it. Face reality; no matter how successful you are at fighting back against an attacker, if you shoot, you lose. It’s only the degree of that loss that’s indeterminate. One only need read the recent events in FL to see that. There was a comedian, I forget who, that had a whole thing about women and the way they think. The punch line to it all was something like, “If I say something and there are two ways of interpreting it, and one of those ways is bad, I meant the other one.” Reading your posts reminds me of that; you revel in being the victim and your insecurity perceives offense where none was meant. There was nothing in my first post to you that was insulting, yet you managed to discern insult, and then took off on some four paragraph nonsensical discussion. If it appears to you that I’m ridiculing your position it’s because your position is meritless in the real world, nevertheless, I’m ridiculing your position, not you personally. You have continued to play victim instead of providing any rational explanation of your original assertion that you wouldn’t want to lose “that small element of surprise” (which I’ve demonstrated doesn’t exist). The OP doesn’t worry about printing, I don’t worry about his printing (or mine) but you claim that printing gives up your ‘surprise’ to a criminal. You don’t have surprise. They know about concealed carry. Instead of whining about how offended you are, how about providing some rationale for your ‘element of surprise’ statement? Can you support it? Are you seriously going to argue “theater and mall shooters” as though there is any evidence of any such shooter checking for printing before beginning his rampage? Can you provide any empirical evidence of that occurring, or even argue that it’s a logical assumption to make? |
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Thank you both for clarifying and taking the time to respond. Perhaps "element of surprise" was the wrong word for me to choose. I prefer to exercise a bit more discretion, based on discussions with people who have personally had their open carry or CCW piece grabbed by someone in public or had the LE called on them. It was in no way an attempt at perpetuating the false logic of "shoot the open carrier first," merely pointing out that I'm more risk-averse than some people. If my personal risk mitigation plan aims to minimize undue attention, that is still a valid choice. My risk/benefit matrix differs from yours.
I'm not offended, but am surprised at the vitriol aimed at someone who has a different opinion. Avoiding criminal attention was only one of the reasons I cited for not wanting to print, yet that's the only one you both addressed. I have absolutely zero desire to get involved in any defensive situation whatsoever. To that end, I have zero desire to do anything that will draw attention to myself. If we are to believe what we heard at the Zimmerman trial, Martin was looking to get into a street fight. When he discovered Zimmerman's gun, that is when he uttered the words, "you're going to die tonight" and reached for the gun. At that point, a beatdown from an experienced fighter against a 0.5/10 MMA neighborhood watchman became a fight for a gun. Would Martin have avoided Zimmerman if he had seen a gun before? The answer is speculation, since he's not around to ask. What is in evidence, though, is that his immediate awareness of the gun escalated into a gun grab and lethal shooting. If gun snatches are not a real concern, then why design level 3 holsters and practice weapon retention? If the visible presence of a gun is not a target indicator for a criminal, why do they shoot the armed bank guards? It's well known that tellers have panic buttons, so it can't be to stop them from sounding an alarm. I cannot assert that a bank, theater or mall shooter would look for printing or open carry citizens to neutralize first, any more than you can assert that they would be deterred by it. I've had over 40 hours in formal defensive firearms training, CCW, and judicious use of lethal force, and sufficient unarmed combatives to know how badly I would be screwed in a defensive situation. I also carried regularly in the non-permissive atmosphere of Boston, where I was harassed by a detective for having the audacity to bring a gun into his city (airline theft, not inadvertent printing). Here in Idaho, it's generally not a big deal if someone prints. I've open-carried, printed, had my shirt ride up, and had a spare magazine kicked off my belt by a toddler here. Nobody cared . As RR_Broccoli pointed out, laws and customs are different. The custom in MA is to avoid any undue attention. "What's that bulge on your belt," or "what kind of gun do you have in that bag" are questions I have been asked in non permissive environments. Ironically, no gun was present in those instances. So, I would also say, do whatever you want as well, but recognize that your local environment with respect to carrying concealed is different from others. Hypothetically speaking, I know a number of people on the medical staff and clinical employees of several hospitals who may or may not carry concealed. Discovery of a concealed weapon would likely cause termination or review with the Professional Practices Committee of their hospital. A Sheriff deputy was recently killed by a patient at a hospital who grabbed his gun. My decisions based on personal experience and discussion with several LE are not false reasoning, nor can they be reasonably construed to have a victim mentality. They are simply on a different assessment of my needs and relative risk of accidental discovery. I've already been shot once, and shot at multiple times while "minding my own business." If there is anything I can do to maintain a low profile and not repeat those experiences, I will. Quoted:
You are perpetuating a stupid myth about "shoot the open carrier first." When you stop doing that, people will stop thinking of you as a child. Do whatever you want, laws and customs are different. But don't use bullshit outright false reasoning to justify what you do to us. Mmmkay? Quoted:
You are perpetuating a stupid myth about "shoot the open carrier first." When you stop doing that, people will stop thinking of you as a child. Do whatever you want, laws and customs are different. But don't use bullshit outright false reasoning to justify what you do to us. Mmmkay? Quoted:
Thank you for clarifying, I think I understand better now. Let me explain. You see, when a person finds insult where there is none, then most adults perceive that person has a victim mentality. This is indicative of an immature person, thus my comment about your mom turning off your internet. In my first post to you I pointed out the absurdity of your ‘element of surprise’ comment and how it was not a preferable characteristic of one’s personal safety plan. I tried, in another post, to point out that ‘surprise’ is not a defensive tactic, and what you are calling surprise is actually ‘reaction’ or ‘damage control’. (The attack has already begun and your so-called surprise is actually your attempt to prevent it from getting worse.) In my first post to you I pointed out some of the possible outcomes of that line of thinking. I even provided two examples to demonstrate how silly it is to rely on the ‘element of surprise’ for part of your personal safety plan; civil action of the attacker or his family and the effects that it would have on your children for having witnessed it. Face reality; no matter how successful you are at fighting back against an attacker, if you shoot, you lose. It’s only the degree of that loss that’s indeterminate. One only need read the recent events in FL to see that. There was a comedian, I forget who, that had a whole thing about women and the way they think. The punch line to it all was something like, “If I say something and there are two ways of interpreting it, and one of those ways is bad, I meant the other one.” Reading your posts reminds me of that; you revel in being the victim and your insecurity perceives offense where none was meant. There was nothing in my first post to you that was insulting, yet you managed to discern insult, and then took off on some four paragraph nonsensical discussion. If it appears to you that I’m ridiculing your position it’s because your position is meritless in the real world, nevertheless, I’m ridiculing your position, not you personally. You have continued to play victim instead of providing any rational explanation of your original assertion that you wouldn’t want to lose “that small element of surprise” (which I’ve demonstrated doesn’t exist). The OP doesn’t worry about printing, I don’t worry about his printing (or mine) but you claim that printing gives up your ‘surprise’ to a criminal. You don’t have surprise. They know about concealed carry. Instead of whining about how offended you are, how about providing some rationale for your ‘element of surprise’ statement? Can you support it? Are you seriously going to argue “theater and mall shooters” as though there is any evidence of any such shooter checking for printing before beginning his rampage? Can you provide any empirical evidence of that occurring, or even argue that it’s a logical assumption to make? |
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Even if nobody cares, I care. I just don't want people to know that I have a weapon. You might live in a gun friendly area, but I and others do not. Move? Either way your not gonna just stop carrying. People spot mine from time to time at work but I do fulfill a security type roll at a high risk operation. If you notice people that carry a big ass cell phone on a belt clip look similar. |
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Quoted:
No, it's better to not be selected as the "shoot him first/grab his gun first" guy in a crowd. I said "against a violent attacker." Theater and mall shooters are violent attackers, too. The term does not automatically denote a 1v1 empty street scenario. Whether I print or not is pretty immaterial to draw speed. At that point, it's either a situational awareness failure or a well-sprung ambush. Neither of those would have been prevented by allowing an ill-fitting cover garment to outline my gun. One could even argue that a loose-fitting cover garment both conceals better and is quicker for the draw. I'll even go so far as to assert it, since I've tried both against the timer. At least I think that was the straw man you tried, and failed, to present. Your comment is so devoid of actual logic as to make me unsure. You resorted to veiled ad hominem attack and appeal to emotion/"think of the children." That's a deflecting tactic used to great effect by the media and anti-gunners, but it won't get any traction with me. Debate the actual issue. If we follow your polluted argument to one logical conclusion, you would even be forced to admit that avoiding printing is better for me. You assert that I have a hero fantasy (which wildly assumes something not in evidence.) Someone with a hero complex would likely desire confrontation on at least some level. Obvious printing with a gun would invite more attention from others, thereby increasing the chance of an escalating interaction. Therefore, someone with a hero complex might reasonably be expected to hope others notice the gun. This line of thinking is evidenced by a surrogate, the CCW badge proudly displayed by some. I have no badge, no shoot out hero fantasy, nor any desire to be noticed carrying a gun. TL;DR- put away the coloring books and think like an adult. Some of us have lots to lose and little to gain by printing with a gun. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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The people in the latter group are those whom I do not want to know I'm carrying. I have no desire to lose that small element of surprise against a violent attacker. Yeah, it's much better to try to draw on a guy who has the drop on you and hope you're successful. It's awesome to shoot your attacker because you'll be a hero that won't get get sued by his family. Your children will be much better off having witnessed some guy getting perforated and bleeding out on the street. No, it's better to not be selected as the "shoot him first/grab his gun first" guy in a crowd. I said "against a violent attacker." Theater and mall shooters are violent attackers, too. The term does not automatically denote a 1v1 empty street scenario. Whether I print or not is pretty immaterial to draw speed. At that point, it's either a situational awareness failure or a well-sprung ambush. Neither of those would have been prevented by allowing an ill-fitting cover garment to outline my gun. One could even argue that a loose-fitting cover garment both conceals better and is quicker for the draw. I'll even go so far as to assert it, since I've tried both against the timer. At least I think that was the straw man you tried, and failed, to present. Your comment is so devoid of actual logic as to make me unsure. You resorted to veiled ad hominem attack and appeal to emotion/"think of the children." That's a deflecting tactic used to great effect by the media and anti-gunners, but it won't get any traction with me. Debate the actual issue. If we follow your polluted argument to one logical conclusion, you would even be forced to admit that avoiding printing is better for me. You assert that I have a hero fantasy (which wildly assumes something not in evidence.) Someone with a hero complex would likely desire confrontation on at least some level. Obvious printing with a gun would invite more attention from others, thereby increasing the chance of an escalating interaction. Therefore, someone with a hero complex might reasonably be expected to hope others notice the gun. This line of thinking is evidenced by a surrogate, the CCW badge proudly displayed by some. I have no badge, no shoot out hero fantasy, nor any desire to be noticed carrying a gun. TL;DR- put away the coloring books and think like an adult. Some of us have lots to lose and little to gain by printing with a gun. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Just fyi- long baggy untucked shirt screams packing in my area |
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I don't really print. I make sure to kneel rather than bend over, etc.
Only time I've ever been busted is by the MILF that cuts muh hair. My shirt rode up in the chair and I had leaned forward slightly to look at my new 'do in the mirror. She apparently likes shooting. :D |
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There are circumstances in which I can't have anyone around me noticing signs that I'm carrying. I spend good money and no little effort to make it so.
Each to their own, I reckon. Don't care what the other guy decides is right, for him/her, unless its a co-worker. |
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Quoted:
I thought wearing anything 5.11 was automatically considered printing. Quoted:
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I absolutely love my Shield 9mm for this reason. Compared to the G27 and P2000SK I used to carry, it just disappears under a 5.11 snap button shirt. I'm not a huge fan of IWB carry although that is how I currently carry. For me, the biggest thing is just pulling my shirt tail down when I hop out of the pick-up since it tends to ride up and snag on the gun when I drive or shift in the seat. The open vehicle door provides cover for me to do so without anyone noticing. Other than that, I just have to be cognizant that if I bend at the waist, I will likely have to adjust the shirt when I stand since I currently carry around 4:00. I would prefer to carry at 3:00, but I need to lose a little weight first. I thought wearing anything 5.11 was automatically considered printing. truth right here. I automatically assume all dudes all 5.11'd out, merrills, morale patch baseball cap are packing. |
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People are so wrapped up in their own little world with their own concerns nowadays that I honestly think that someone could probably get away with open carrying with few people noticing, as long as they weren't real obvious about it and were not using, for example, a drop-leg holster. With the way things are, with people preoccupied with their own problems, with the current self-absorbed "me, me, me" generation and with people afraid to make eye contact with anyone, people don't look and check out those around them the way they used to. They tend to go their own way, do their own thing and ignore everyone else. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule- people who don't live in "Condition White" like (hopefully) CCW holders, security and Police and, of course, bad guys. But, for the most part, people just don't look around and notice anything anymore. Myself, despite what I posted above, I worry about concealment. I carry my Glock 26 in a CrossBreed SuperTuck when off duty from my PD job, simply because of all the guns I currently own, it conceals the best, not to mention it works best for that job. I could carry my G22 duty gun or my G19 and not worry about it, but I choose to worry about it. I've seen the clothing bulges that the couple guys I work with who carry their G23s off duty display. It's not real obvious, and I doubt most would notice it, but I do and don't want to print like they do. To me, concealed means concealed, not just covered up by a shirt. In fact, as soon as I get some money saved up, I'm going to get either a S&W Shield in 9mm or Springfield XDs in 9mm, simply to conceal better while still shooting a reasonable SD caliber. There's really nowhere to go shopping where I live without going to a suburb of Youngstown, OH, and I don't want any run-ins with LE. Even though I am LE and am permitted to carry the guns I carry, all the Mahoning County cops I've ever met are MAJOR ASSHOLES! I have no desire to ruin my day by run-ins with them, even if I'm perfectly legal. If you or anyone else want to carry a larger gun and not worry about printing, that's your choice and more power to you. Sometimes, during the winter and when I can effectively conceal it under heavy clothes, I will carry my G22 duty gun and feel a LOT better since I am carrying a larger, easier to shoot gun with more capacity, However, I'm not willing to print to carry it during the summer. Bub75 I carried from Nashville to Warren, OH two weeks ago for a business trip. small world. |
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Quoted: "Trotted out that old tired... myth...think beyond the sound bite...hide behind some tired lines that dont mean anything. I'll concede mastery of platitudes to you for that sentence. I trying to tear down my discussion of surprise, you threw a handful of tired high school debate tactics designed to get applause from onlookers without actually discussing the merits of your position. You fixate on the "element of surprise" line as if it were the crux of my argument. In the exact same paragraph, I expanded on that statement to mean not just the gunfight at the OK Corrall youre trying to paint. Perhaps a better way to say it would have been, I wish to not be identified early by a mass shooter and selected to be the first victim. The element of surprise is more than just saying, "Boo! I've got a gun, too!" It also means the hiccup in his decision train, or OODA loop that happens when a previously ignored "victim" becomes a legitimate threat. Surprise works both ways. An attacker may initially have the greater portion of speed, surprise, and violence of action. That must be met with some combination of the same. Again with the insults, you said, "If you don't want people to know you carry (for whatever reason) then fine, be man enough to say so." You missed the part at the end, after the TL;DR where I said I don't want people to know I carry for whatever reason. I said at the beginning that I don't want people to know I carry for whatever reason. Somehow that annoyed you, maybe because you can't disagree without making it personal. I can disagree on facts and opinions, and respect that some people don't care. Someone else has legitimate reasons to avoid printing, whether it is from attention from criminal element, coworkers,clients, etc. Why can you not recognize and address that, without devolving into an emotional attack? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: OK, now that's funny. Be nice or mom will take away your internet privileges. So instead of actually discussing the point, you opted to go right to personal attacks in a tech forum? Insults and name calling don't address the conversation about CCW printing. All you did was the virtual equivalent of sticking your tongue out at me or saying, literally, "yo mamma." You had no point. You completely misinterpreted my post and went off on some incoherent rant where you tried to sound intelligent by using words and phrases you don't really understand. My response was a detailed point-by-point explanation of my personal reasons. Your "think of the children, hero kill bad guy, mommy Internet privileges" comments were a rant. A second-rate rant, at best. I spent 14 years in higher education beyond high school learning words and phrases. Part of my first career was in live announcing, understanding, and usage of words and phrases. You insulted my intelligence. Please feel free to post results of assessments by psychologists/neuropsychologists, not free web tests, and then we can decide whether you have reasonable grounds to launch into that invective. It's been discussed. The OP doesn't care if he prints, and neither do I. Good for you. The OP and you do not constitute the authority on everyone's need to avoid printing. You trotted out that old tired "element of surprise" that is only a myth in the minds of people who fail to think beyond the sound bite. The element of surprise is an offensive move, and the bad guy uses it to get the drop on you. You aren't going to surprise him with your gun, because unless you live in a place where concealed carry doesn't happen for regular citizens, he's already well aware of CCW. If you don't want people to know you carry (for whatever reason) then fine, be man enough to say so. Don't try to hide behind some tired lines that don't mean anything. "Trotted out that old tired... myth...think beyond the sound bite...hide behind some tired lines that dont mean anything. I'll concede mastery of platitudes to you for that sentence. I trying to tear down my discussion of surprise, you threw a handful of tired high school debate tactics designed to get applause from onlookers without actually discussing the merits of your position. You fixate on the "element of surprise" line as if it were the crux of my argument. In the exact same paragraph, I expanded on that statement to mean not just the gunfight at the OK Corrall youre trying to paint. Perhaps a better way to say it would have been, I wish to not be identified early by a mass shooter and selected to be the first victim. The element of surprise is more than just saying, "Boo! I've got a gun, too!" It also means the hiccup in his decision train, or OODA loop that happens when a previously ignored "victim" becomes a legitimate threat. Surprise works both ways. An attacker may initially have the greater portion of speed, surprise, and violence of action. That must be met with some combination of the same. Again with the insults, you said, "If you don't want people to know you carry (for whatever reason) then fine, be man enough to say so." You missed the part at the end, after the TL;DR where I said I don't want people to know I carry for whatever reason. I said at the beginning that I don't want people to know I carry for whatever reason. Somehow that annoyed you, maybe because you can't disagree without making it personal. I can disagree on facts and opinions, and respect that some people don't care. Someone else has legitimate reasons to avoid printing, whether it is from attention from criminal element, coworkers,clients, etc. Why can you not recognize and address that, without devolving into an emotional attack? |
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Ibtb. Mods only get red buddy. Have fun with that. And I prescribe Vaseline for that butt hurt you got there Must have missed that in the COC in the almost decade I've been on this site, or even in a check of subforum stickies. I've certainly never heard of it being a bannable offense; it's not messing with site code - it's clicking the little box on my editor that says "color." Point me to the rule, since your junior mod badge doesn't convince me. I was trying to distinguish my comments from those quoted, since quote function is broken on the mirrors I use to access the site, and the formatting still ended up screwy. Sorry to have caused your butt hurt with red font color. Have some Vaseline. It's laughable that in a "carry issues" subforum, there is much dogpiling of someone who makes a personal decision to usually follow the "concealed means concealed" mantra. I posted my opinion, and got a bunch of chest-thumping insults right out of the gate. I don't care if you print or not. Personally, having carried a gun for just shy of 20 years in some very restrictive situations, I choose discretion. Let's agree to disagree, and be done with it. I'll stop posting in the thread and let you collectively bask in your self-appointed superiority. |
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It's laughable that in a "carry issues" subforum, there is much dogpiling of someone who makes a personal decision to usually follow the "concealed means concealed" mantra. I posted my opinion, and got a bunch of chest-thumping insults right out of the gate. I don't care if you print or not. Personally, having carried a gun for just shy of 20 years in some very restrictive situations, I choose discretion. Let's agree to disagree, and be done with it. I'll stop posting in the thread and let you collectively bask in your self-appointed superiority. Quoted:
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Ibtb. Mods only get red buddy. Have fun with that. And I prescribe Vaseline for that butt hurt you got there It's laughable that in a "carry issues" subforum, there is much dogpiling of someone who makes a personal decision to usually follow the "concealed means concealed" mantra. I posted my opinion, and got a bunch of chest-thumping insults right out of the gate. I don't care if you print or not. Personally, having carried a gun for just shy of 20 years in some very restrictive situations, I choose discretion. Let's agree to disagree, and be done with it. I'll stop posting in the thread and let you collectively bask in your self-appointed superiority. Just so we're clear, I'm not dogging your decision to carry concealed, with printing or without. As a proponent of open and concealed carry I'm just glad when regular folks carry! I just hate to hear that 'element of surprise' cliche. I think we got that all sorted out though, so there's no point in rehashing it. I've been carrying a gun regularly for over 30 years now. The first 20 were mostly as an aircrew member on heavies, so primarily concealed because of the governmental sensitivities involved (citizens don't carry concealed in England for example, but we did). I've carried concealed all over Europe, Africa, Southwest Asia, Southeast Asia, South America, Former Soviet Block, Australia, and numerous Pacific and Atlantic island nations. Now as a retiree, I carry indifferently- open, concealed, anywhere in between. My rules are: 1. Be armed with something I can shoot accurately across the distance of a restaurant (like Luby's Cafeteria). No mouse guns, ankle holsters, etc. 2. #1 is more likely if the carry is comfortable and secure. 3. Prioritize potential threats in order of 'real' likelihood, not based on Hollywood movie scenarios. The sensitivities of other citizens, who can carry the same as me if they choose, are not on the list, so printing is a non-issue. |
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I have had people walk into my place of work carrying before.
I always ask if anyone else noticed no one ever does. Like others have said no one really notices small printing. Let alone open carry My friends forget I carry because they do not notice. I carry a full size 1911, but I can hide that sucker very well |
