Posted: 2/18/2013 12:28:55 PM EDT
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In case anyone is interested in the time differences using some real numbers
Chamber Empty VS. Chamber Loaded On February 16 and 17th 2013 the Texas Tactical shooters set out to gather data on the efficiency of carrying a gun with an empty chamber vs. carrying a handgun with a loaded chamber. 104 shooters shot 4 strings of fire. The Course of Fire consisted of 4 Targets at 3 yards. The strings of fire were as follows: String 1. Starting with magazine inserted and an empty chamber and handgun in holster, at the signal chamber a round and engage Target 1 with a Mozambiquee drill. String 2. Starting with magazine inserted and loaded chamber and handgun in holster, at the signal engage Target 2 with a Mozambiquee drill. String 3. Starting with magazine inserted and an empty chamber and handgun in holster, at the signal chamber a round using strong hand only and engage Target 3 with a >Mozambiquee drill, firing strong hand only. Shooters were instructed that they could use any safe technique to chamber the round strong hand only. This included using the belt, holster, pant seam, etc. or even the Bianchi barricade that was conveniently placed in front of them within arms reach. String 4. Starting with magazine inserted and loaded chamber and handgun in holster, at the signal engage Target 4 with a Mozambiquee drill using strong hand only. Special Thanks to all the Texas Tactical shooters who helped to gather this data. Thank you to Ryan and Jennifer for your work in compiling the data. Here are the results: http://www.texastactical.net/results/files/ChamberEmpty.htm Average Difference on strings 1 and 2 using all data between Chamber Empty Vs Chamber Loaded: Chamber loaded was faster by 0.77 Average Difference on string 1 and 2 after removing extreme high and low between Chamber Empty Vs Chamber Loaded: Chamber loaded was faster by 0.84 Average Difference using all data for strings 3 and 4 between Strong Hand Only Chamber Empty Vs Strong Hand Only Chamber Loaded: Chamber loaded was faster by 2.09 Average Difference on strings 3 and 4 after removing extreme high and low between Strong Hand Only Chamber Empty Vs Strong Hand Only Chamber Loaded: Chamber loaded was faster by 3.22 |
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I apprieciate the effort in the research, but I feel it's a moot point, in that the ONLY way to carry a sidearm as a primary defensive weapon, is chambered.
Ask any expert in the field...............in a world of "isocoscelese vs. weaver", "Glock vs. 1911",this is one of the things on which there is ample concensus. |
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Quoted:
I apprieciate the effort in the research, but I feel it's a moot point, in that the ONLY way to carry a sidearm as a primary defensive weapon, is chambered. Ask any expert in the field...............in a world of "isocoscelese vs. weaver", "Glock vs. 1911",this is one of the things on which there is ample concensus. Agreed but unfortunately there are still people out there that are fooling themselves that there will be time to chamber a round. Hopefully these numbers will change someone's mind. |
Good data for a no stress environment on a static range. Don't forget to add the time where a shooter who carries chamber empty pulls his pistol under the stress of a deadly threat, tries to fire without racking the slide, and then can't figure out why his gun won't work. OODA is a real b*tch. 
I tell folks that I train that if you can't be trusted to carry a loaded pistol, then you probably shouldn't be carrying at all. The gun is not a talisman against the criminal. |
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if the "average" (since that words' been used a bit in these studies) of the "average" gunfight/shooting is "3 yards, 3 shots, 3 seconds"...and a rather quick draw is ~2sec...well, seems to be a waste to use that second wasting your time to chamber a round
there are few things more useless than unloaded guns. a semiauto w/ NO round chamber is NOT loaded...LOAD your friggin guns and carry them |
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OP was this from concealment or open carry?
This should put into perspective why chamber carry is a must, & demonstrates that even with a firearm for self defense you can expect to get somewhat hurt in the process of defending your life. This isn't a movie........ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxrpLbaEuY |
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OP was this from concealment or open carry? This should put into perspective why chamber carry is a must, & demonstrates that even with a firearm for self defense you can expect to get somewhat hurt in the process of defending your life. This isn't a movie........ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxrpLbaEuY Good point. This was open carry. |
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I know guys who won't carry chamber loaded. They won't change their mind about it. I've tried.
I will not ever recommend they leave the gun in their vehicle or at home because it would take a whole lot longer to run back and get the gun than to draw and rack the slide... A gun on the hip w/ loaded mag but emply chamber is definitely NOT a brick. As proof, take a look at the thread where everyone posted up how carrying saved their lives. There are countless stories in it where Folks weren't taken by surprise and stopped bad guys because they had their gun on them instead of back at the vehicle or at home. In the recent shootings, there are plenty of folks who could have drawn, racked the slide, and taken out the bad guy. In the theater, the school, etc. Again. I carry to capacity ( full mag with a round chambered. ) Always. I know for a fact that it is stupid to not carry this way. I also know for a fact that it is stupid to tell someone to leave the gun at home if they choose to leave the chamber empty. |
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Carrying on an empty chamber is a lot less than optimum, and you can state that it's better than not having a gun at all but you have to qualify that it's only the case in some situations - such as an almost never happens kind of mass shooting. In the other far more common scenarios, after your attacker has stabbed you or beaten you to the ground, your now angry and physiologically excited attacker who you've just shown contempt for by drawing a gun on him can just take it away from you, rack the slide and finish you off with it.
Carry one in the chamber, shoot when you have to, keep shooting until he's down or you're at slide lock. Then reload and keep shooting if needed. ---- Statistically if an attacker is within 20' of you, he'll be on you before you can draw - and that's with LEOs and open carry. YMMV but even with practice drawing from under a shirt takes more time, and if it's tucked it will take even longer one handed. With the very close distance in the video, you're going to have one hand tied up fending off an attack (and hopefully absorbing only defensive arm wounds) while you drawn and fire. Take that one hand reality into account when you consider how you carry and how you'll need to draw as well. Your best move in any case is to not let the range get that close if at all possible through better SA and better tactics. |
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It is amazing to me that this is even discussed. No offense to the op. It is a good experiment that reinforces the point. I just wonder if die hard empty chamber people could be swayed by anything. I hope they can be swayed with hard numbers. Which was the whole point of doing this. I was pretty sure I knew what the end result was going to be but I was shocked at the 3.22 avg difference between using strong hand only with chamber empty vs chamber loaded.. That is a lot of time, especially if the reason you are using strong hand only is because you are using your other hand to fend someone off. |
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If safety is an issue, then some practice will be needed. Always practice re-holstering with a grip that does not allow the palm to press against any secondary safety. I accomplish this by having my thump on top of the slide( on the rear sight) instead of around the grip. This along with the index finger against the side of the slide eliminates any possibility of accidently pulling the trigger when moving the gun around from a holster to safe or vise versa.
Just my insight on safely re-holstering with a loaded chamber. I have to move my gun from my holster to my hiding spot in my truck 5days a week when going to university campus. I wouldnt leave the house without one in the chamber or one on me |
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Quoted:
I know guys who won't carry chamber loaded. They won't change their mind about it. I've tried. I will not ever recommend they leave the gun in their vehicle or at home because it would take a whole lot longer to run back and get the gun than to draw and rack the slide... A gun on the hip w/ loaded mag but emply chamber is definitely NOT a brick. As proof, take a look at the thread where everyone posted up how carrying saved their lives. There are countless stories in it where Folks weren't taken by surprise and stopped bad guys because they had their gun on them instead of back at the vehicle or at home. In the recent shootings, there are plenty of folks who could have drawn, racked the slide, and taken out the bad guy. In the theater, the school, etc. Again. I carry to capacity ( full mag with a round chambered. ) Always. I know for a fact that it is stupid to not carry this way. I also know for a fact that it is stupid to tell someone to leave the gun at home if they choose to leave the chamber empty. I'd tell someone that carries chamber empty to get some/more training since they must not be able to keep their finger out of the trigger guard during the draw or like playing with guns like toys. Chamber empty is a training issue and any C3 carrier that quotes Israeli techniques (which I've read countless times) have no clue on why they carry that way. Just thought I'd mention that since hardcore C3 carriers always bring that up and make me go 
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Good data for a no stress environment on a static range. Don't forget to add the time where a shooter who carries chamber empty pulls his pistol under the stress of a deadly threat, tries to fire without racking the slide, and then can't figure out why his gun won't work. OODA is a real b*tch.
Exactly - IRL life threatening situation those numbers have the potential to be far worse. |
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Quoted:
Good data for a no stress environment on a static range. Don't forget to add the time where a shooter who carries chamber empty pulls his pistol under the stress of a deadly threat, tries to fire without racking the slide, and then can't figure out why his gun won't work. OODA is a real b*tch.
Exactly - IRL life threatening situation those numbers have the potential to be far worse. In our first CCW permit holder involved shooting in Wisconsin, the permit holder tried to shoot a shotgun wielding goblin before realizing that he had forgot to chamber a round. Bad guy didn't see him, and he had time to recognize his mistake, chamber a round & shoot the bad guy. Could have turned out much, much differently. Al-Mujaahid called it a high-stress, highly unpredictable scenario that luckily turned out the best it could. Looking back, he said he should have checked to make sure there weren't some other armed robbers inside the store. In the future, he said he would probably keep a round chambered in his gun, and the primary safety disengaged, since his particular handgun has a multi-stage safety.
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| I always carry loaded. I waste enough time presenting the gun. Why waste any more with chambering a round. If the other guy gets the drop on me, the odds are already in his/her favor. At that point, I'd probably be shot anyway if I tried to draw. I don't want to be culpable in my own death if I can help it. |
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Another part of the equation that most people fail to mention is that racking the slide (in particular under stress) is the most likely action to cause a malfunction on most firearms. If you ride the slide forward, don't pull it back all the way etc. you may not successfully chamber a round or the slide may not be completely forward.
It's not just the time it takes to chamber a round, there is also a lot of potential for (user) malfunction. Why would you want to do that under stress, when you can just do it under ideal circumstances with all the time you need to verify everything? |
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Quoted: Quoted: I apprieciate the effort in the research, but I feel it's a moot point, in that the ONLY way to carry a sidearm as a primary defensive weapon, is chambered. Ask any expert in the field...............in a world of "isocoscelese vs. weaver", "Glock vs. 1911",this is one of the things on which there is ample concensus. Agreed but unfortunately there are still people out there that are fooling themselves that there will be time to chamber a round. Hopefully these numbers will change someone's mind. The guys at my LGS all carry on their hip while working. One of them carries a 1911, hammer down. I asked him why, and he said that he wasn't comfortable with cocked and locked, so he carries hammer down on an empty chamber. "I'll be able to draw and rack it quick enough." |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I apprieciate the effort in the research, but I feel it's a moot point, in that the ONLY way to carry a sidearm as a primary defensive weapon, is chambered. Ask any expert in the field...............in a world of "isocoscelese vs. weaver", "Glock vs. 1911",this is one of the things on which there is ample concensus. Agreed but unfortunately there are still people out there that are fooling themselves that there will be time to chamber a round. Hopefully these numbers will change someone's mind. The guys at my LGS all carry on their hip while working. One of them carries a 1911, hammer down. I asked him why, and he said that he wasn't comfortable with cocked and locked, so he carries hammer down on an empty chamber. "I'll be able to draw and rack it quick enough." I wish I had the crystal ball that all these guys have. Then I could only carry when something was going to happen. I sure could save myself a lot of trouble carrying all this gear. |
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Chambered, always. On duty and off. Open carry on duty and iwb off duty. When a firearm leaves my side for any reason I always recheck to make sure the round is still chambered when I put it back on.
Even though I'm the only one using them it is my form of redundancy. |